Is it being honest?

[jayanna]

Maybe it is also a time thing, like the census records that are only released after such a certain amount of time. IF there is a chance that the person is still alive, the records are not available to use in order to protect their privacy. Similarly, I have found that when I am submitting a name 20 years old in the church system, I am asked the family permission question (when I am not a direct descendant) but if I enter one in that is a couple of hundred years old I don't get the question, all of their immediate family have probably passed away.

[Guest]

If you honor his wish, I think that's nice of you. But surely not even he believes that his request should have any effect after he dies. He is not the permanent, eternal gatekeeper for his ancestors -- especially when they're YOUR ancestors, too.

If your ancestors themselves had requested no ordinance work to be done, that would be a different matter. As it is, if I were in your shoes, I would wait perhaps until the day after the death of the "patriarch" before submitting the work to be done.

Well... when you come from a family of extremely devout Catholics - including great-grandparents who served the Catholic Church as lay-ministers and brought an entire town of people to worship... and add on to that the superstitious nature of the elders (the fear of retribution from the dead is quite healthy around those parts) it gets complicated.

If my great and grand parents were alive, they would continue to be lay ministers at the town parish. That, you can take to the bank.

The death of the "patriarch" only results in the rise of the replacement "patriarch". My dad is only 3rd in line... and even then, as of today, his answer is a definite No, even if he is sympathetic to the LDS due to me.

What I have to do is continue with softening the hearts of my family and persevering. I have complete faith that if my great and grandparents are waiting anxiously for the work that they will do their part to get their wishes known (yes, Filipinos love that show Crossing Over... LOL).

When my own parents move on - their work is going to be done. But, I'm still holding out hope that a miracle the likes of Paul on the road to Damascus is going to happen that my devout Catholic parents are going to be baptized LDS before they die. :)

[Magen_Avot]

I am asking this because of a personal knowledge of this.

It's something that has really bothered me but doesn't seem to bother the others involved. I just wanted to get the perspective of others to see if I'm just off base on this.

Thank you,... I wish I could know the details cuz the article I read was very interesting. I'm not asking for the scoop, but it does seem like a lesson about ethics is afoot.

[Magen_Avot]

Knowing the importance of proxy work, I can see the temptation to do the work for family members even if their living relatives don't give their permission.

We can easily envision that so and so who passed away is eagerly awaiting for the work to be done so they can accept and move forward. The thought of such an individual having to wait for an undetermined period of time is... unpleasant.

Yet perhaps this analogy will help. Say you met Sam who is 16 years old. He wants to get baptized and tells the missionaries that he has his parents permission yet you know for certain that his parents are vehemently opposed to him getting baptized. Would it be dishonest for you to stay silent? What if you knew his parents will but were the missionary. Would it be dishonest to baptize him anyways?

If you answered the way I did, then how would that be any different from baptizing others against the wishes of their closest living relatives?

This is a good point. There have been 'stories' about such things but I don't know if they are true.

The case you suggest is without any doubt IMO, not just wrong, but I believe could be prosecuted in court; however, considerations for an emancipated 16 year old might be doable, but that also may also require consideration of a judge and church authorities if the parents were against it,... idk.

[Martain]

Church Policies

Persons Born within the Last 95 Years

To do ordinances for a deceased person born in the last 95 years, please obtain permission and honor the wishes of close relatives. Relatives may not want the ordinances performed or may want to do the ordinances themselves. The closest living relatives are, in this order: an undivorced spouse, an adult child, a parent, or a brother or sister.

To me this policy explains that we check with close relatives not the closest living relative. If no close relative of the deceased as defined above is available to express preference or had not done so before becoming deceased themselves, then the preference of other living descendants is not a deterrent to doing an individual's work.

To me the obvious exception for this would be when living descendants procure a promise that such work will not be done prior to providing the genealogical records in question. In such cases, while Church policy would not prevent it, integrity and the promise of the individual receiving the records does.

Another exception is in regards to Jewish Holocaust victims.

Restricted Submissions

Church members should not submit individuals that they are not related to (with the exception of close friends as provided in the full policy statement). This includes:

Famous people.

Those gathered from unapproved extraction projects.

Jewish Holocaust victims. Members cannot do the ordinances for these people except under the following conditions:

They are an immediate family member of the deceased (defined as parents, spouse, or children), or

They have permission of all living immediate family members, or

They have the permission of the closest living relative if no immediate family members are living.

In order to do the work for Jewish Holocaust victims, one must also secure the permission of the closest living relative. This restriction currently only applies to Jewish Holocaust victims only as far as I can tell.

[applepansy]

Sorry, apple. I seem to be really slow today. I don't understand your post. Why would anyone want to take a special experience away from anyone? Who is anyone? The LDS Church or the non-LDS family?

"Anyone" is an unrelated person doing the work. The church has asked us not to perform ordinances for people we aren't related to without getting permission. I stated that sometimes inactive or non-LDS family member will become active or convert. Then they have the opportunity for doing the work for their loved one. If we get all in a hurry to do the work then that family member loses out on a wonderful experience. I don't understand why anyone - who understands the family is central to the gospel and temple work - would want to do the work and potentially take away an spiritual experience for a family member.

Another reason to not do the work without permission is somewhere down the line a grandchild might join the church and do their family history, thereby having the wonderful experience of doing the work. Again, it would be sad if the grandparent's neighbor had already done it.

[Martain]

I understand where you're coming from apple and though I disagree with you on some matters, I hope you do not take the following to be an attack on yourself in any way.

Yes I can see how it could be sad if someone else had previously done the work for a convert's ancestors. It seems such a scenario would apply even if it was a family member who did it. Either way the descendant missed out on an opportunity for a wonderful experience right?

Yet ultimately we have to ask ourselves this question. Who are we doing the work for? Is this work for the living or the dead?

Out of respect for those left behind we do not do the work for those whose immediate relations request otherwise so long as those individuals yet live. Yet those who have no such living immediate relations, Jewish Holocaust victims being the exception, do not have such restrictions. For such, the message is to get the work done as soon as possible.

The work for the dead is critical as they can not progress in the spirit world without it. If you had never heard the gospel in this life and had been waiting for hundreds of years in the spirit world for your work to be done, do you really think you would care whether or not it was done by descendants or by a church extraction program?

Think of baptism and the laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost. How can they receive this gift save we do their proxy work for them? Knowing how much of a difference it makes in my life I find I do not want anyone who has died to wait any longer than absolutely necessary for their work to be done.

Think of temple sealings? Do you think that those who die without this endowment can still live together lawfully as husband and wife in the spirit world? They're no longer married there and can not be so unless this saving ordinance is done for them here. I find I do not want anyone who has died to wait any longer to be sealed to their spouses any longer than absolutely necessary for their work to be done.

You're absolutely right regarding how wonderful it is when a descendant steps up and does the work for their dead but this work isn't about them.

I know how much I cried and plead to finally be allowed to enter the temple myself and finally be allowed to make those covenants myself and I can imagine that there are those in the spirit world who shed tears of sorrow and who are pleading earnestly in prayer for someone, anyone to do their work for them.

I think of with sorrow those individuals who had no records left behind or who have been lost and who in all likelihood will have to patiently wait until the millennium for their work to be done so that they can progress.

While I recognize that I feel differently than you do I hope you can understand how I feel too.

I would not be sad if someone had already done my ancestor's work. I would be very happy! I would be at peace knowing that those of them who had accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ and who were waiting had not had to wait for me to rise up and do it for them. I would be at peace knowing that those who accepted in the future wouldn't have to wait even a single day.

I would want to thank who ever had done the work for them so that they could progress rather than wait even a single day without the blessings these ordinances bring.

I'd feel that way because in my mind, it's not about me.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Martain