"Beware of Satan," they say.

[LDSCubsFan]

I personally get sick and tired of leaders of church discussions and other members blaming "Satan" for everything bad. "That's Satan tempting you," they say, or "Now that you are particularly vulnerable, watch out for Satan to exploit your weakness." I feel like I am a little kid being warned about a big, bad, monster with horns. It reminds me of a saying that is rather common among gentiles: "It is a mistake to believe there is only one devil." In other words, it is not just Satan who exploits weaknesses and causes bad decisions. If you believe that you are fooling yourself.

[slamjet]

That sounds like Satan talk. Once you understand the nature of God and the adversary, then it becomes very, very clear. No good comes from Satan and no bad comes from God. Everything in between is consequences of our choices, whether good or bad.

[LDSCubsFan]

That sounds like Satan talk. Once you understand the nature of God and the adversary, then it becomes very, very clear. No good comes from Satan and no bad comes from God. Everything in between is consequences of our choices, whether good or bad.

"Satan talk," huh? Another nut.

[MarginOfError]

In slamjet's defense, I think you don't understand what he is saying.

In your defense, I don't think slamjet really understood what you were saying.

In slamjet's defense, your post isn't really that clear.

I think the relevant part you should read from slamjet's post is this:

Once you understand the nature of God and the adversary, then it becomes very, very clear. No good comes from Satan and no bad comes from God. Everything in between is consequences of our choices, whether good or bad.

Essentially, there is good, and there is bad, but in true Schroedinger's fashion, there isn't either until we choose one or the other.

[prisonchaplain]

In an era where so much is gray and neutral and "a matter of personal agency," I'm actually relieved to hear some still believe in a literal devil, who does seek lie, steal and kill. I would hope that "agency" or free will means we are free to obey God and resist the Devil, rather than being left to our own devices because there is no objective right or wrong.

[Dravin]

In an era where so much is gray and neutral and "a matter of personal agency," I'm actually relieved to hear some still believe in a literal devil, who does seek lie, steal and kill. I would hope that "agency" or free will means we are free to obey God and resist the Devil, rather than being left to our own devices because there is no objective right or wrong.

That makes me think of 2 Nephi 28:22

22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

[HEthePrimate]

For a good discussion of what Satan is all about, I recommend the book I See Satan Fall Like Lightning, by Rene Girard.

Edited February 23, 2012 by HEthePrimate

[Madriglace]

If you have a testimony of the Savior you must also have a testimony of Satan ... both sides of the coin.

My folks have served 5 missions and every single time as they got ready to leave things took a down ward spiral. The better we do the harder he works ... he doesn't much care about the ones he already has, he wants the ones that got away. If the GA keep addressing it maybe it's because we aren't listening hard enough.

[HEthePrimate]

I think most of our bad decisions are a result of stupidity. Either that or selfishness, though one could argue that selfishness is stupid. For the most part, we're quite capable of doing bad things on our own without encouragement from the Devil. It's not as though it would never have occurred to us to, say, steal that cookie unless somebody told us to!

[prisonchaplain]

We cannot blame the Devil for our sins, but we do well to understand who the god of this world is, and to take Jesus' warning to heart--that Satan is a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

[Snow]

If you have a testimony of the Savior you must also have a testimony of Satan ... both sides of the coin.

My folks have served 5 missions and every single time as they got ready to leave things took a down ward spiral. The better we do the harder he works ... he doesn't much care about the ones he already has, he wants the ones that got away. If the GA keep addressing it maybe it's because we aren't listening hard enough.

well - that's completely untrue.

I have a testimony of the Savior and no testimony at all of the devil. I can't see any good reason to believe he is real

[jerome1232]

well - that's completely untrue.

I have a testimony of the Savior and no testimony at all of the devil. I can't see any good reason to believe he is real

So, do you believe Christ is lying when he talks about Satan?

[prisonchaplain]

Snow, I was going to suggest some reasons for you to believe in a literal Devil, but then remembered we have rules against discussion elections and politicians. :-)

[Snow]

So, do you believe Christ is lying when he talks about Satan?

Do you think I respond well to trolling?

[Dove]

I believe that Satan is real.

I believe that the only way to truly overcome the adversary is through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Also, that our eternal destiny is determined by how true we are to our knowledge of the Saviour and following Him, and/or choosing righteously when we have a knowledge of good and evil.

I feel that perhaps what I've written is pretty obvious. Yet I never want to downplay the destructive power of the adversary, especially if I knowingly rebel against God.

I've learned that their are two major powers in the world; good and evil. Neither one is to be disrespected or treated as naught.

Dove

[jerome1232]

Do you think I respond well to trolling?

Trolling? I don't understand how someone can claim they don't believe in a literal satan in the face of scripture and what our prophets have said. Especially when Christ and Moses had conversations with him, again, how do you justify that belief?

[Snow]

Trolling? I don't understand how someone can claim they don't believe in a literal satan in the face of scripture and what our prophets have said. Especially when Christ and Moses had conversations with him, again, how do you justify that belief?

Your lack of understanding doesn't much interest me. It's your behavior that is at issue here... Implying that I think God is a liar.

[LDSCubsFan]

So, do you believe Christ is lying when he talks about Satan?

I do not deny Satan exists. Nor do I deny that Satan tempts us to get off the righteous path. What I was referring to in my OP is that it seems like some church members attribute little things to Satan's work. For example, I recall when my Stake President a few years back asked me to seek a certain position or responsibility in the church. When I said I wasn't ready for that (I was a new member), he said it was the devil giving me doubt. I recall when I told my home teacher a few years ago that I thought I was not good at a certain skill, he said that was nonsense and that it was the devil giving me such a thought. I recall at my baptism, one of the missionaries said the baptism almost didn't take place because of an issue with the baptismal font (or something like that...it was a technical issue), and she attributed this to the work of the devil in an effort to prevent the baptism from taking place.

[mrmarklin]

I think I know what you mean now, Cubs Fan.

And you are correct, too many coincidences are attributed to Satan. But I do believe that he is real, and we need to be very cautious about dismissing his influence out of hand.

He does want us to not do well. He wants us to make poor choices and shirk responsibilities.

We are our own agents, however and sometimes it can be frustrating that others assign certain reluctances or shortcomings on our part to the influences of the devil.

[FunnySheila]

Oh, I sooooo know what you mean LDSCubsFan!!!

I too hate the constant diatribe on Satan this and Satan that.

I too have a testimony that Satan exists but I don't feel the need to attribute every little thing that comes across my path that I would perceive as being "negative" to Satan.

For example, a couple of weeks ago I woke up late for church - still got there on time, but I had barely enough time to get my kids and myself ready for church. Behold a sister proclaims, "It's Satan trying to stop you from coming to church!!!". Inside I gritted my teeth and smiled - hey she could be right, but who isn't to say that it wasn't just the fact that I have small children and am a single parent??? There is only one me to look after my kids, and only one me to prepare for my upcoming study-year, and only one me to read the scriptures and pray, and only one me to keep my home ship-shape, and only one me to keep some semblance of a social life and fulfill my duties by the church.

Who's to say anyway, that things that we perceive as being "bad" or "negative" (and I'm talking about things like being late or almost late for church or other various things) weren't actually from Heavenly Father because He had foreknowledge that if say I woke up a little earlier and gone in a little earlier, that I might have had a car crash and ended up in a coma in some hospital instead???

That's the only "Satan" incident I can think of at the moment, but the comments of this nature in conversation are numerous.

Sometimes when people start going on about "Satan made me do this or that", I feel like saying, "Why do we have to be so negative?"

Why don't we praise or thank Heavenly Father instead of focusing on what Satan is doing all the time? Yeah, it sucks that I forgot to help my child prepare for her talk this morning, and you know what, it probably was Satan who influenced me to forget until 1/2 hour before church this morning, but I am so grateful to Heavenly Father that He helped me to remember at the last moment and that I had enough time to help her prepare it so that she was able to give it today.

Yeah it sucks that I swore yesterday, and my swearing was probably under the influence of Satan, but I am so grateful that I have a merciful, and kind and loving Heavenly Father who forgives and that He has given me the ability to repent and move on.

I don't know - I just know that it irritates me hearing that all the time over every little thing. But then again, as some I know would say, "Satan's making me feel that way!"

*shrugs shoulders*

Edited February 26, 2012 by FunnySheila

[HEthePrimate]

well - that's completely untrue.

I have a testimony of the Savior and no testimony at all of the devil. I can't see any good reason to believe he is real

FWIW, Snow, I agree that the existence of a personage called 'Satan' is not strictly necessary. It doesn't logically follow that because God exists, Satan must also exist. Having said that, it is possible that those who oppose God have a leader, and that people call him Satan, the Devil, or whatever. But evil would exist in the world just fine without such a being--we humans are quite capable of cooking up evil in our own hearts.

[lizzy16]

I've thought about this a lot..and well.

They say Satan can't tempt us in the Temple....

But, sadly, I've thought some really bad things while I've been in the Temple.

So I kinda concluded that I have my own bad thoughts ect..and Satan doesn't tempt me as much as I think he does.

[prisonchaplain]

Lizzy, you bring up an interesting angle...so many things we say are just things we say.

LDS: Satan can't tempt you in the Temple.

Pentecostals: Satan can't understand your prayers when you speak in tongues.

Then there are all those bullets and bullies who've been repelled by BoMs or Bibles--especially those pocket-sized ones right over the heart.

Perhaps it does not matter when a temptation we face comes from "the world" "Satan" or the wicked imaginations of our heart...the key is recognizing it and resisting it. Greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world.

[LDSJewess]

I personally get sick and tired of leaders of church discussions and other members blaming "Satan" for everything bad. "That's Satan tempting you," they say, or "Now that you are particularly vulnerable, watch out for Satan to exploit your weakness." I feel like I am a little kid being warned about a big, bad, monster with horns. It reminds me of a saying that is rather common among gentiles: "It is a mistake to believe there is only one devil." In other words, it is not just Satan who exploits weaknesses and causes bad decisions. If you believe that you are fooling yourself.

LDSCUBSFAN,

In reading this as well as your post about "fun" I think that you somehow are struggling with what the Church views are (or more to the point what your perception of the Church views are), versus your own questions.

I know there are references to the terms: "The Devil Made Me Do it>" And "Jesus saves."

But in reality the Church views are not that cut and dry and ther is a lot more taught about free agency, i.e personal responsibility.

Most of us would agree that we do not perceive the "Devil or Satan" as some guy running around with horns, a red suit and a pitchfork, aby more than we perceive God as a guy dressed in a white robe halos and lightening bolts coming out of his finers, even though some artists have depicted them as such.

On the other hand it is very reasonalbe to agree that there is both good and evil in the world. Everything has an opposite. How could we identify anything as being sweet if bitterness did not esist. Could we recognize energy if there were no fatigue. Would there be love if there were no hate? If something does not have an opposite then how can it be defined that it exists? So there has always been good then there has always been evil.

In the pre existence Satan chose evil. Jesus chose good. Suffice it to say that SAtan is the embodiment of evil whereas Jesus is the embodiment of good.

And so we since the fall of Adam have free agency. The good part about it is that it's a gift. We get to experience life in it's fullness and yes that includes the good part and the evil part. And we get to choose good over evil or vice versa.

I don't see Satan as the guy with the horns making us do anything. Satan chose evil and a good part of Satan's evil nature is being a liar. And these lies would have an entire society of human kind believing lies such as it is "fun" and "good" to drink alcohol, take drugs, smoke, or even engage in malicious gossip, bigotry or hatefullness. Let's face it if you hear the lie often enough you can come to believe the lie.

But if we take a look at it. Anyone here who has ever got drunk or had a hangover, was it REALLY fun? Is it REALLY fun to need a drug or a cigarette full well knowing it is a risk to your health and well being. Is is REALLY fun to gossip? Does it make a person feel good to hate? No never! But the great liar Satan would have you believe that pigs fly and things that are not good for you are "Fun."

So that is where our free agency comes in. We get to choose or not to choose to believe in a lie. And we get to choose also to perpetuate the lies to others or not.

It is not only a gift having free agency, it indeed is our responsibility to use free agency and use it wisely.

And the best part of all is when we get caught up in the lies and screw up even when we strive to do our best, Jesus through his love and goodness and grace goes to bat for us. And the attonement of Christ makes salvation possible.

There is much to be said about the cliche "The truth shall set you free." And the truth is to stop believing the lies and the liar.

There is never fun, joy or enjoyment or peace or any other good thing in lies and evil no matter how much a liar would amke you try and believe that.

But in truth and goodness there is indeed all that we as humans really strive for within the depths of our souls, peace, joy, happiness and love.

[Madriglace]

I guess I have to take the scriptures at face value when they state that Satan was present during the council in heaven and that he rebeled against the Father and was cast out ... he is real and he uses anything he can against us. He may not tell us what to do but when we are hashing out a choice for ourselves he waits to use his best tools like discouragement and fear to kind of nudge us to choose his way. The choice is entirely ours and as are the consequences but the hints are his if we are headed away from the light. He knows us and what works best against us.