"Beware of Satan," they say.

[Praetorian_Brow]

From my experience, personifying the extremes of behaviour brings a great deal of comfort to our human condition. Unfortunately, we also attempt to excuse our own behaviour or lessen its effects upon our responsibility by justifying through such titles as, Satan tempted me or it was a trial that has been thrust upon me. I detest such thoughts as it detracts from our purpose and in my esteemed opinion lessens the purpose of this life.

I find it strangely fascinating when everthing that is considered abhorrent is declared the work of an elder brother. I am of the opinion that who we scapegoat is probably not the instigator. I know I have a selfish desire to place blame on anything but myself and I am well aware its an universal trait. The connotation of is that we can judge a situation using our Hitchhikers Guide and then throw moderation out the window in favour of extremist declarations, rather than recognizing our inherent nature to learn by mistake.

By declaring our circumstances as a trial, it encourages the mistaken idea that our present circumstances, whether arbitary or chosen, is a grand construct and smacks of the elitist idea that I have had this world and all the people made for me.

Faith is not an absolute and we are reminded of this in Ether 12:27, even if the accepted interpretation differs from my own. This verse encourages us to recognize the inherent flaws in our natures and this mortal existence. By voicing said flaws to ourselves and the object of our faith, we are reminded that we can become more progessive than we already are. By prayer, we are declaring our faith to ourselves, reinforcing our goals, expressing noble traits on the behalf of others and building a habitual mindset that prevents selfish irrationality.

Desperate absolutism leads to zealotry and I fear that is the a most grievous threat to our culture and organized church.

[HiJolly]

Thanks for posting, P_B.

"in my esteemed opinion"? Interesting comments.

HiJolly

[clevermoniker]

well - that's completely untrue.

I have a testimony of the Savior and no testimony at all of the devil. I can't see any good reason to believe he is real

Because the Savior, of whom you claim to have a testimony, says that he is real. What else do you need?

[Snow]

Because the Savior, of whom you claim to have a testimony, says that he is real. What else do you need?

It's amazing that this even needs to be explained:

1. Christ doesn't say he is real. God is silent. Other people say that God says such and such... Big difference.

2. For those of you who are unfamiliar with what a testimony is... It's not simply a matter of believing what someone else says. That's merely intellectual assent. A real testimony involves divine intervention... And God hasn't seen fit to reveal to me that ol scratch is real.

[Snow]

FWIW, Snow, I agree that the existence of a personage called 'Satan' is not strictly necessary. It doesn't logically follow that because God exists, Satan must also exist. Having said that, it is possible that those who oppose God have a leader, and that people call him Satan, the Devil, or whatever. But evil would exist in the world just fine without such a being--we humans are quite capable of cooking up evil in our own hearts.

Agree

[circusboy01]

well - that's completely untrue.

I have a testimony of the Savior and no testimony at all of the devil. I can't see any good reason to believe he is real

Snow. That Devil/Satan that you have no testimony of. You can bet hes got his eye on you,

and a big old grin on his face

[slamjet]

Snow. That Devil/Satan that you have no testimony of. You can bet hes got his eye on you,

and a big old grin on his face

Come now, let Snow be. We may have personal experiences that dictates to us something different, but he's entitled to his belief without getting piled on.

[circusboy01]

Come now, let Snow be. We may have personal experiences that dictates to us something different, but he's entitled to his belief without getting piled on.

You're right, and I do apologize to Snow, you and anyone else I might have offended.

Now don't get me wrong I don't really regret what I posted.. It just felt right, and still does. But Again, I do apologize to those it offended.

[Snow]

Snow. That Devil/Satan that you have no testimony of. You can bet hes got his eye on you,

and a big old grin on his face

That's just a bunch of meaningless blather.

You could just say that a green monster from planet nine has his seven eyes on me and the evidence for either would be exactly the same... As well as the effect it has on me and how how live my life... No effect whatsoever.

Let me ask you a question... Apparently you believe in the devil... So how would my life be made better if I too believed in a magical, invisible, super, evil creature?

[circusboy01]

That's just a bunch of meaningless blather.

You could just say that a green monster from planet nine has his seven eyes on me and the evidence for either would be exactly the same... As well as the effect it has on me and how how live my life... No effect whatsoever.

Let me ask you a question... Apparently you believe in the devil... So how would my life be made better if I too believed in a magical, invisible, super, evil creature?

I rather like the blather.

Yes I could have said that a green monster....But I didn't, because that would be silly ;-)

You say "If I too believed in a magical, invisible super evil creature" indicating that I believe

in such a creature. I don't. So your life wouldn't be made better if you believed in a " magical

evil creature."

Is this whole thing serious to you? It's hard to tell. You keep on winking ;-)

[usar]

I can say that too many people give too much credit to SATAN when a large majority holds to the people themselves when making bad decisions and following the crowd of the world !

I personally get sick and tired of leaders of church discussions and other members blaming "Satan" for everything bad. "That's Satan tempting you," they say, or "Now that you are particularly vulnerable, watch out for Satan to exploit your weakness." I feel like I am a little kid being warned about a big, bad, monster with horns. It reminds me of a saying that is rather common among gentiles: "It is a mistake to believe there is only one devil." In other words, it is not just Satan who exploits weaknesses and causes bad decisions. If you believe that you are fooling yourself.

[MormonMama]

Your lack of understanding doesn't much interest me. It's your behavior that is at issue here... Implying that I think God is a liar.

His behavior is not an issue. If you claim you believe in Christ but not Satan, then you either imply that Christ is a liar or you truly do not understand His teachings. Because Christ very clearly stated that Satan is real.

You're right, and I do apologize to Snow, you and anyone else I might have offended.

Now don't get me wrong I don't really regret what I posted.. It just felt right, and still does. But Again, I do apologize to those it offended.

Actually, I think you are quite right. But I also think that's true of most of us. Satan is watching us and rejoices every time we make even the slightest mistake.

Edited March 4, 2012 by MormonMama

[Blackmarch]

I personally get sick and tired of leaders of church discussions and other members blaming "Satan" for everything bad. "That's Satan tempting you," they say, or "Now that you are particularly vulnerable, watch out for Satan to exploit your weakness." I feel like I am a little kid being warned about a big, bad, monster with horns. It reminds me of a saying that is rather common among gentiles: "It is a mistake to believe there is only one devil." In other words, it is not just Satan who exploits weaknesses and causes bad decisions. If you believe that you are fooling yourself.

well the devils second favorite lie, right after there is no god, is that there is no devil.

IMO he gives the first little shove but we keep the ball rolling, so to speak.

[MormonMama]

IMO he gives the first little shove but we keep the ball rolling, so to speak.

Agreed. The Church teaches (and really, every church I've ever attended teaches this) that Satan is VERY real and can influence us, but ultimately it is up to us whether we will choose good or evil. I don't know any faith that teaches that we can't control our own actions and everyone I know understands that "the devil made me do it" is just a joke. The devil can't MAKE us do anything. He whispers in our ears and tries to influence us, but whether we listen to him or not is entirely on our shoulders.

[slamjet]

Christ, the pigs and the evil spirits comes to mind.

[JudoMinja]

Snow,

I know from past discussions with you and reading your posts that you are a very intelligent, educated and faithful person. I respect your belief and conclusions concerning the existence of Satan though I disagree. And it is because I respect you that I am honestly and sincerely curious how you interpret this scripture:

"And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance." 2 Nephi 28:22

Do you simply feel that the use of the term "devil" is symbolic here? Maybe that it is referring to teachings that we can do no evil because there is no innate moral law of right and wrong? I think I can see how it would be symbolic, since verse 20 says "at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men" which could just mean that people themselves turn to more devilish deeds as they set their hearts on their lusts and carnal desires.

It just seems so clear to me, in our teachings, that the very person Satan/Lucifer/the Devil/the Son of the Morning is real and involved in our lives. Just as Jesus, the Holy Ghost, and our Father in Heaven are real and involved in our lives. So I would like to understand better how you've reached your conclusions to the contrary while still holding yourself to a strong faith in our Father in Heaven and in our Savior Jesus Christ.

[Snow]

His behavior is not an issue. If you claim you believe in Christ but not Satan, then you either imply that Christ is a liar or you truly do not understand His teachings.

Completely false. I never said that, I never implied that, I never even thought that. Now your behavior is as lamentable as the other poster's.

Because Christ very clearly stated that Satan is real.

Do I seriously have to go through this again?

If that is so, then you should be able to conclusively demonstrate that. I'll just sit back while you fail to do that.

[prisonchaplain]

I believe what some posters are unaware of is that not every Christian (LDS or otherwise) takes the Bible as mostly literal and historical. In the light, some do not believe that the red letters in our Bibles are the actual words of Jesus. Instead, some would say they are at best a recollection, sometimes separated by years, or heard second hand.

Let me be clear that I believe the Bible is mostly literal and historical, and that Jesus' words are accurately reflected in our New Testaments. Just pointing out that not all agree.

[slamjet]

If that is so, then you should be able to conclusively demonstrate that. I'll just sit back while you fail to do that.

Now this is argument for argument's sake.

<For clarification, I deleted most of this post because I saw it could be perceived as attacking the person, and not debating the point. But I was quoted the exact time I was fixing my post. Thus, the phantom quote in the next post.>

Edited March 9, 2012 by slamjet
Explaining the wierd quote below

[Snow]

Now this is an argument for argument's sake. We may as well ask that you conclusively demonstrate that there is no such personage as Satan. Either way, it cannot be done. just as it cannot be done that one can conclusively demonstrate that Heavenly Father is real, or the Atonement is real. That, in and of itself, goes against the definition of faith. That comment just puts out there that you are not really serious but just messing around.

And that is precisely the point. The poster claimed that clearly Christ stated... Which, obviously is not clear at all. What is really going on is that some people God said one thing while other people say that God says other things. We Mormon accept as a dogmatic proposition that God said certain things, but God Himself says nothing about it openly... Something completely lost on the poster.

And far from not being serious, I am completely serious and factually correct.

Btw, as you probably already grasp, asking to prove Satan is NOT real is a very different deal - so different that I wonder why you would even bring it up.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Snow

[slamjet]

And that is precisely the point. The poster claimed that clearly Christ stated... Which, obviously is not clear at all. What is really going on is that some people God said one thing while other people say that God says other things. We Mormon accept as a dogmatic proposition that God said certain things, but God Himself says nothing about it openly... Something completely lost on the poster.

Mark 3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?

24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.

D&C 10:5 Pray always, that you may come off conqueror; yea, that you may conquer Satan, and that you may escape the hands of the servants of Satan that do uphold his work.

Moses 1:12 And it came to pass that when Moses had said these words, behold, Satan came tempting him, saying: Moses, son of man, worship me.

13 And it came to pass that Moses looked upon Satan and said: Who art thou? For behold, I am a son of God, in the similitude of his Only Begotten; and where is thy glory, that I should worship thee?

14 For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. But I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so, surely?

15 Blessed be the name of my God, for his Spirit hath not altogether withdrawn from me, or else where is thy glory, for it is darkness unto me? And I can judge between thee and God; for God said unto me: Worship God, for him only shalt thou serve.

16 Get thee hence, Satan; deceive me not; for God said unto me: Thou art after the similitude of mine Only Begotten.

17 And he also gave me commandments when he called unto me out of the burning bush, saying: Call upon God in the name of mine Only Begotten, and worship me.

18 And again Moses said: I will not cease to call upon God, I have other things to inquire of him: for his glory has been upon me, wherefore I can judge between him and thee. Depart hence, Satan.

19 And now, when Moses had said these words, Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me.

20 And it came to pass that Moses began to fear exceedingly; and as he began to fear, he saw the bitterness of hell. Nevertheless, calling upon God, he received strength, and he commanded, saying: Depart from me, Satan, for this one God only will I worship, which is the God of glory.

21 And now Satan began to tremble, and the earth shook; and Moses received strength, and called upon God, saying: In the name of the Only Begotten, depart hence, Satan.

22 And it came to pass that Satan cried with a loud voice, with weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and he departed hence, even from the presence of Moses, that he beheld him not.

Moses 5:12 And Adam and Eve blessed the name of God, and they made all things known unto their sons and their daughters.

13 And Satan came among them, saying: I am also a son of God; and he commanded them, saying: Believe it not; and they believed it not, and they loved Satan more than God. And men began from that time forth to be carnal, sensual, and devilish.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

D&C 76:25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

I dunno, there seems to be some pretty good scriptural references to the existence of Satan. But then I guess that all depends on how you view the scriptures.

[Snow]

Now you are acting like acting like I don't have scriptures or know what they say.

Why are you doing that?

... And no, it doesn't matter how you view scripture. What I posted is factually true regardless. Besides which, what the scriptures say has little or nothing to do with my point. Did you even read the thread?

Edited March 9, 2012 by Snow

[skippy740]

2 Nephi 28:18-26

18 But behold, that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof.

19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;

20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

[circusboy01]

Now you are acting like acting like I don't have scriptures or know what they say.

Why are you doing that?

... And no, it doesn't matter how you view scripture. What I posted is factually true regardless. Besides which, what the scriptures say has little or nothing to do with my point. Did you even read the thread?

I will admit my education only goes as far as a High School GED test. So perhaps I'm missing something. Could you please make it easier on me, and complete this statement?

I do not believe Satan is real because...

[Tyler90AZ]

President Packer and President Holland both said that the Devil is very real during October Conference.