No fun?


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Do my fellow mormons ever think that they are not allowed to have fun? Seriously. I joined the church about 12 years ago, and there have been many times since then that I feel that I am depriving myself of fun things. I can do without hard liquor, but iced tea and coffee sure is good once in a while, and even a beer or two during the Superbowl. And, gosh...some of the more wicked things...wow. But, I am not going to be one that does these things and pretends like I am a member in good standing. (I have a feeling there are those that exist.) I am either going to do them and drop out of the church altogether, or do them and just not go to the temple and not be very involved in the church while attending services regularly and paying tithing. I believe the church has some good messages, and I love the way it makes members feel like family, but the dogma is sometimes overwhelming. I am not saying I am going to stray. I will keep reading the Book of Mormon and other scriptures and going to church and being active with fellow members and praying with the hopes that my "dirty thoughts" will go away or at least become manageable. I'm in my 40s, by the way.

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I don't need a beer, iced tea, cigarettes, or coffee to have fun. In fact, I think what draws a lot of people into the church is seeing how much fun active members can have without the liquor etc.

I feel that if a member is struggling with the Word of Wisdom, that shouldn't keep them away from church. I have a wonderful neighbor who struggles with smoking. She would love to quit. She still attends church. We all know of her struggle, and we as a ward family are rooting for her. She has a calling in the ward. I feel like she is still a member in good standing. She would love to attend the temple with her husband and family and be sealed. She knows her smoking is holding her back. I believe someday she'll be able to kick the habit. How sad it would be, if she felt that because of her smoking she wasn't welcome in church, or able to partake of the Spirit that is felt so strongly by attending church. None of us are perfect. We all need the gospel in our lives.

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The thing about living faithfully is that it has to be an intrinsic thing. It's easier to live the Word of Wisdom when you have a testimony of it, and you're not just doing it because everyone says you should. Like you said, anyone can claim to be anything or anybody, when in reality their life is something completely different. For instance someone could come on an LDS board and claim to be LDS, and pretend that they are a church member, when they're actually just wanting to make little potshots at the church and put some burrs under people's saddles because they aren't members of the church at all and have some ax to grind. You know, hypothetically speaking.

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Isn't the term fun subjective anyway? One might think it fun to go for a drive through the mountains, one might think it fun to watch their kids soccer game while another goes to the ballet.

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praying with the hopes that my "dirty thoughts" will go away or at least become manageable. I'm in my 40s, by the way.

Just a thought, but dirty thoughts can become clean wholesome fun when there's a spouse involved...

I can't help you with coffee though. I grew up in a house where my mom would put her cigarettes out in her coffee grounds. I'd have to clean everything up after it had been cold for half a day. I just don't associate that smell with "fun" - sorry.

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My perspective is a bit different.

I'm in my 20's and my husband in his 40's. We have both led inactive LDS lifestyles for many years, in fact, we have only recently started going to church. But we both have had our share of partying over the years, getting caught up in trouble and we've lost friends to drug abuse and suicide. Neither of us miss those times because underneath the surface of fun and perhaps the facade of glamour, there was a lot of pain. That said, having also partaken in the lesser of the evils, such as a beer here and there, or coffee with the girls at Starbucks, yes it can be tough to breakaway from that stuff and say NO. There are still times, on occasion, where I'd love to have a drink with friends or wear outfits that I know now aren't representing LDS standards but with the support of my husband (and vice versa) and the strength through prayer, I'm reminded WHY I'm choosing this. The gospel and the standards that are set for us, never promised to be "fun" but the rewards and benefits reaped from following them are guaranteed to bring us true happiness. That's not to say it'll be easy.

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Isn't the term fun subjective anyway? One might think it fun to go for a drive through the mountains, one might think it fun to watch their kids soccer game while another goes to the ballet.

Indeed. While I can get how someone may class Word of Wisdom violations as fun, or various immoralities such as viewing pornography, a concept of fun limited to such activities seems artificially constrained to me. I think very few people actually have such a narrow view of fun. Even a wild partying promiscuous college frat boy can have fun playing a pick-up game of basketball. So when people equate not violating the Word of Wisdom or various immorality as not being able to have any fun it rings hollow.

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The thing about living faithfully is that it has to be an intrinsic thing. It's easier to live the Word of Wisdom when you have a testimony of it, and you're not just doing it because everyone says you should. Like you said, anyone can claim to be anything or anybody, when in reality their life is something completely different. For instance someone could come on an LDS board and claim to be LDS, and pretend that they are a church member, when they're actually just wanting to make little potshots at the church and put some burrs under people's saddles because they aren't members of the church at all and have some ax to grind. You know, hypothetically speaking.

Hmmm...
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Indeed. While I can get how someone may class Word of Wisdom violations as fun, or various immoralities such as viewing pornography, a concept of fun limited to such activities seems artificially constrained to me. I think very few people actually have such a narrow view of fun. Even a wild partying promiscuous college frat boy can have fun playing a pick-up game of basketball. So when people equate not violating the Word of Wisdom or various immorality as not being able to have any fun it rings hollow.

I don't know if it rings completely hallow.

I think, especially, for someone that has always lived the straight and narrow, avoiding a beer or cup of coffee isn't a big deal. I think for someone that drinks one or both due to lifestyle and social gatherings, giving it up can be, in a sense, missing out on fun as many social events (whether shooting hoops, watching a game, etc) has a cooler somewhere with beers inside. You have to keep in mind as well, that for some (like my husband and I), our friends are not LDS and so it can be tough enjoying just the simple get-togethers because everyone wants to unwind or celebrate with a beer or glass of wine.

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I don't know if it rings completely hallow.

If one cannot literally have fun without having an alcoholic beverage, tea, coffee, or playboy in hand then one probably has issues. That's why it rings hollow. There is an important distinction between, "A lot of the fun things I do/did involved these things." and "I cannot have any fun without partaking of these things."

I think for someone that drinks one or both due to lifestyle and social gatherings, giving it up can be, in a sense, missing out on fun as many social events (whether shooting hoops, watching a game, etc) has a cooler somewhere with beers inside.

Unless one is required to partake then the presence of the cooler doesn't preclude participation in the game or social event. Sure if we're talking a drunken frat party then not drinking will probably make enjoyment difficult as the event is dedicated to the consumption of alcohol. However there are social events where alcohol, coffee, or tea are present without their consumption being the focus of the activity. I'm probably reading you wrong but you seem to be trying to say that if you go to a neighborhood BBQ you can't enjoy yourself if there are a few beers going around and you don't also partake. Same thing would apply to going to a brunch and not drinking coffee while others do.

So coffee tasting, wine tasting, or a kegger, means not being able to enjoy the activity without violating the word of wisdom? Sure. Neighborhood BBQ, brunch, or playing basketball when some of the others enjoy a Bud Light during a time out? Not so much. Here though we come back to the fundamental issue, there is a divide between, "I cannot participate in these fun activities without consuming alcohol, coffee, or tea." and "All fun activities require me to consume alcohol, coffee, or tea."

Edited by Dravin
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I don't know if it rings completely hallow.

I think, especially, for someone that has always lived the straight and narrow, avoiding a beer or cup of coffee isn't a big deal. I think for someone that drinks one or both due to lifestyle and social gatherings, giving it up can be, in a sense, missing out on fun as many social events (whether shooting hoops, watching a game, etc) has a cooler somewhere with beers inside. You have to keep in mind as well, that for some (like my husband and I), our friends are not LDS and so it can be tough enjoying just the simple get-togethers because everyone wants to unwind or celebrate with a beer or glass of wine.

Thank you, Bini. With coffee and iced tea, perhaps I should have referred to them as "tasty" rather than fun. Coffee has been an occassional drink for me during my pre-LDS and inactive LDS years, and I can't say that I still don't drink it from time to time. Iced tea with lemon is absolutely delicious, and no calories to speak of to boot. It used to be my drink of choice since I am diabetic and I can't stand the taste of diet sodas. I really don't even like to drink any alcohol anymore. I even decided this during my inactive LDS years. I think getting drunk or even getting under the influence of alcohol is just foolish, although I couldn't care less about who does it. When I talk about things that are "fun," I am talking about the more wicked things. Hey, I've done (and thought about) those things for more than half of my life. I guess if I stay active in my church I will find spiritual things to be fun, but it is challenging when LDS makes up such a small minority in my area (even my wife and step and other family is non LDS). I'll just have to keep reading the BOM and staying active in the church and staying in contact with LDS members as much as possible. I know that helps.
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If one cannot literally have fun without having an alcoholic beverage, tea, coffee, or playboy in hand one probably has issues. That's why it rings hollow. There is an important distinction between, "A lot of the fun things I do/did involved these things." and "I cannot have any fun without partaking of these things."

Unless one is required to partake then the presence of the cooler doesn't preclude participation in the game or social event. Sure if we're talking a drunken frat party then not drinking will probably make enjoyment difficult as the event is dedicated to the consumption of alcohol. However there are social events where alcohol, coffee, or tea are present without their consumption being the focus of the activity. I'm probably reading you wrong but you seem to be trying to say that if you go to a neighborhood BBQ you can't enjoy yourself if there are a few beers going around and you don't also partake. Same thing would apply to going to a brunch and not drinking coffee while others do.

So coffee tasting, wine tasting, or a kegger, means not being able to enjoy the activity without violating the word of wisdom? Sure. Neighborhood BBQ, brunch, or playing basketball when some of the others enjoy a Bud Light during a time out? Not so much.

You're still missing my point that I'm trying to make.

Yes, of course you can participate in activities without partaking in alcohol or coffee/tea BUT some get-togethers revolve around it. Example, my MIL is European and loves us to come over and spend time with her over coffee/tea and cake. Yes, we can just sit there and chitchat but the whole idea is to sip a cup of coffee or tea and enjoy a little small talk. Same for her wine and cheese nights. Those nights are specifically for guests to enjoy fine wine and cheese, with chatter on the side.

If you reflect on my previous post, I'm not validating people give excuses because of this or that, I'm simply saying that YES, there's a degree of FUN and enjoyment from these kinds of things. And I think if you haven't ever experience a lifestyle such as the examples I've given, of course, you won't ever feel like you're missing out on anything, or understand why it's hard for people (like my husband) to enjoy the atmosphere of shooting darts when he's been advised not to drink beer.

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BUT some get-togethers revolve around it.

Yes they do, I even gave the example of a wine tasting.

I'm simply saying that YES, there's a degree of FUN and enjoyment from these kinds of things.

I never said otherwise.

I'm simply saying that YES, there's a degree of FUN and enjoyment from these kinds of things.

Never said there wasn't.

You seem have to missed the point I reiterated:

There is an important distinction between, "A lot of the fun things I do/did involved these things." and "I cannot have any fun without partaking of these things."

I understand the sentiment that past activities are less enjoyable or not able to be partaken of without violating the word of wisdom. What I was talking about ringing hollow is not, "I can't have fun doing these past things without partaking of X, Y, or Z." but "I cannot have any fun without partaking of a Word of Wisdom violation."

Edited by Dravin
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Yes they do, I even gave the example of a wine tasting.

I never said otherwise.

Never said there wasn't.

You seem have to missed the point I reiterated:

I understand the sentiment. Past activities are less enjoyable or not able to be partaken of without violating the word of wisdom. What I was talking about ringing hollow is not, "I can't have fun doing these past things without partaking of X, Y, or Z." but "I cannot have any fun without partaking of a Word of Wisdom violation."

I agree with that.

Forgive me if I didn't interpret your post correctly but your wording did not come across clearly to me. I read it as you implying that there is no fun to be found in such things because you can partake in activities without them. My response to that was then: oh yes there is.

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This puts me in mind of something a new member said today. A friend was having a birthday party at a bar. The new member didn't want to go because of the drinking. I thought it was too bad that she couldn't be there for her friend.

I was never a big drinker - I could go for years without a drink - but I went into bars because that's where the music was. I had no problem ordering a soda. When I go to conferences and people want to go to a bar, I feel I can go with them and not drink. Here in my college town, most of the restaurants have bars. If I couldn't go where there was a bar, I couldn't socialize with my colleagues. Not every bar is a din of inequity and I wouldn't go in places that are dives where people only go in to drink.

What do Mormon guys do, especially those who like sports? Do you never go to a sports bar? Again, assuming more is going on than just drinking, such as pool, darts, dancing, would you not go to a bar just because they serve liquor there? I'd hope testimonies are stronger than that.

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I found it both funny and ironic that the first responses returned under a LDS.org keyword search of "bar" were the following:

Bar-Jona

Raising the Bar

Bar-Jesus

Bar - Triple Index

Champion of the Monkey Bars

Bar - Bible Dictionary

Candy Bar

Candy Bar

Bar-Jona

Frozen Orange Bars

I definitely have some definitive feelings on the subject above regarding the patronizing of bars/casino's. I even had a quote or two from the prophets... which I frustratingly can't find at this current time.

While I would prefer to patron an establishment that does not sell or promote either, to me there is a vast difference from a place which exists to sell food and sells alcohol on the side and a place that exists to sell alcohol and sells food on the side.

As a Mormon guy, even if I liked sports, I wouldn't go to a sports bar.

There are certain things that offend the Spirit of the Lord and cause it to withdraw. Many such things can be found in a bar. I desire that those same things would offend me and cause me to withdraw as well.

Why should I make myself welcome at an establishment whose purpose and existence is to promote a behavior in direct opposition to the plan of he who I call master?

I've been told to stand in Holy Places and be not removed from them. Personally, even if no alcohol is consumed and no gambling performed, I see patronizing a bar or casino as running counter to such guidance.

I've been told to live in but not of the world. Personally, even if no alcohol is consumed and no gambling performed, I see patronizing a bar or casino as running counter to such guidance.

I understand that others will see these things differently than me and accept that. Rather than seeing how close to the temptation and line I can go without going over, I'd prefer to stay as far away from it as I possibly can.

To me, a bar or casino is enemy territory. Going into a bar or casino seems just as wise as a soldier jumping out of a fox hole into the line of fire expecting to miraculously not get shot at.

We cannot be passive; we must actively avoid evil. Families in this day and time should not only avoid evil but avoid the very appearance of evil. (James E. Faust, Ensign Nov 1997)

1 Thessilonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Even if you don't agree with me, I hope you'll no longer feel sad that someone wasn't there for a friend because they refused to enter a bar.

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Again, assuming more is going on than just drinking, such as pool, darts, dancing, would you not go to a bar just because they serve liquor there? I'd hope testimonies are stronger than that.

What does testimony strength have to do with it? Or are you under the impression that if one has a strong testimony one need not make any effort to avoid temptation, the appearance of evil, or undesired atmospheres? I can understand disagreeing where the line is, I myself don't have a problem with eating at a pub or going to a Buffalo Wild Wings, but if someone would be uncomfortable because it serves booze I'd not be thinking it's because their testimony isn't 'strong enough'.

Edited by Dravin
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The funny thing, I might add, is that J.W. Marriott hotels serve coffee and tea. I would guess they have bars too. I assume Marriott is in good standing, even though he distributes drinks that God forbids. I have heard other Mormons justify this by saying the Marriotts would lose too much money if they didn't serve these drinks, but isn't it hypocritical to put profit before God's principle? Someone help me out here.

Edited by john doe
removed reference to political candidate
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Well, my view on this as a 17 year old is probably a lot different. Things like drinking and WoW things have no appeal to me. I never did those things before, so I don't see the appeal. Other things I have a hard time with. But, with the LDS enviorment I'm it at BYU-Idaho it helps. And, i just pray for the desire to be good..

Liz

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The funny thing, I might add, is that J.W. Marriott hotels serve coffee and tea. I would guess they have bars too. I assume Marriott is in good standing, even though he distributes drinks that God forbids. I have heard other Mormons justify this by saying the Marriotts would lose too much money if they didn't serve these drinks, but isn't it hypocritical to put profit before God's principle? Someone help me out here.

Other Mormons don't, nor should they, have to 'justify' anything to you.

Frankly, it's none of my/your/their business what Marriott does. I think Paul said it best when he said "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

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Was anyone else disappointed the title didn't lead to a thread about nuclear warfare policy?

In sacrament meeting today a veteran missionary shared something that really resonates with me. He said that he was fine with most mission rules, but there were some that he had a really tought time with. He attributed his misery to going over the same arguments every time the choice was placed before him.

I can relate to his remarks. There are some things I have already decided are not a part of my life. I haven't had to revisit my decision on living the Wow, even growing up in the South where iced tea is preferred over lemonade and working in an environment where alcohol fuels morale events. Some other things I am not so committed to, and so I find myself making the decision over and over again. For instance, there are some shows that I know are not uplifting for me that I should cut out of my life altogether. But guess what happens once a week if I'm not already doing something else? I'm going over the same old argument of whether or not I'll be watching that show.

You can replace these particular examples (that I'm comfortable sharing openly) with any other other sin or unwholesome practice and I think it still applies. Trying to live a principle while I'm halted between two opinions is absolutely no fun.

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