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It's kinda funny... When the "Horton" movie came out, with it's pro-life propaganda, nobody on Fox news complained. But now when the message is "Protect the environment so future generations can enjoy it too", suddenly having movies with messages is a bad thing.

Except "Horton" was never intended as pro-life propaganda. Geisel himself said the story had absolutely nothing to do with the abortion debate. I never heard the makers of the animated movie say it was more pro-life purposes (correct me if I'm wrong there.)

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Well.  This thread has aged in an interesting way, given the current mad scramble to disavow all things Seuss.

I do admire the progressive jiu-jitsu that has modern conservatives defending Ted Geisel—a committed liberal who was pretty much the embodiment of indoctrinating children with leftism through his books, gleefully described himself as “subversive as he**”, marched in lockstep with every Democrat hack of his era, wrote apologia for Stalin, and was such a philandering scumbag that he drove his first wife to suicide.

Given enough time, leftists always eat their own.  As conservatives—we should let them.  

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1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Well.  This thread has aged in an interesting way, given the current mad scramble to disavow all things Seuss.

I do admire the progressive jiu-jitsu that has modern conservatives defending Ted Geisel—a committed liberal who was pretty much the embodiment of indoctrinating children with leftism through his books, gleefully described himself as “subversive as he**”, marched in lockstep with every Democrat hack of his era, wrote apologia for Stalin, and was such a philandering scumbag that he drove his first wife to suicide.

Given enough time, leftists always eat their own.  As conservatives—we should let them.  

I am, myself, given to certain opinions - especially my own.  However, I believe that one of the principles at the very foundation of freedom and liberty is not just my right to think and have an opinion but the belief to allow other that same privilege.  

One would think liberals to be more connected to their roots of liberty.  Do I have to point out that the root of the term "liberal" is same the term "liberty".  I personally dislike it very much that today's so-called conservatives have completely abandoned such a precious term to be used (misused) by those that in action hate liberty to its very core.

 

The Traveler

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Whelp, when my kids were younger, I'd read to them for 30-45 minutes every night.   We did Dr. Seuss, 3-4 Mark Twain books, the Little House on the Prairie series, To Kill a Mockingbird, and plenty of Rudyard Kipling.  

Been nice knowing y'all.  I must now turn them (my kids) in for reconditioning, and I must submit to community punishment.

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7 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Whelp, when my kids were younger, I'd read to them for 30-45 minutes every night.   We did Dr. Seuss, 3-4 Mark Twain books, the Little House on the Prairie series, To Kill a Mockingbird, and plenty of Rudyard Kipling.  

Been nice knowing y'all.  I must now turn them (my kids) in for reconditioning, and I must submit to community punishment.

This reminds me of a post card I saw eons ago in my youth.  There is a picture with a young couple sitting romantically under a tree having a picnic.   The young fellow trying to impress the lady asks if she likes Kipling.  She responds with:  "I do not know.  I've never kipled."

 

The Traveler

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58 minutes ago, Traveler said:

This reminds me of a post card I saw eons ago in my youth.  There is a picture with a young couple sitting romantically under a tree having a picnic.   The young fellow trying to impress the lady asks if she likes Kipling.  She responds with:  "I do not know.  I've never kipled."

d9836bf94a7fa6f89f322e8cbd814cf5.jpg

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Best Kipling poem ever, the advice the Jungle critters give Mowgli as he's preparing to rejoin his own race.  I read this to my daughters when they started school, I'll read it to them again when they leave home.

https://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/outsong_in_jungle.html

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5 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Best Kipling poem ever, the advice the Jungle critters give Mowgli as he's preparing to rejoin his own race.  I read this to my daughters when they started school, I'll read it to them again when they leave home.

https://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/outsong_in_jungle.html

Perhaps one of my Kipling favorites:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/poetryseason/poems/the_female_of_the_species.shtml

 

The Traveler

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On 3/3/2021 at 3:38 PM, NeuroTypical said:

Whelp, when my kids were younger, I'd read to them for 30-45 minutes every night.   We did Dr. Seuss, 3-4 Mark Twain books, the Little House on the Prairie series, To Kill a Mockingbird, and plenty of Rudyard Kipling.  

Been nice knowing y'all.  I must now turn them (my kids) in for reconditioning, and I must submit to community punishment.

When you read them The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn did you read Jim's name as Twain wrote it or did you censor it?

Literary classics are classics for a reason. Sometimes it's simply because it represents its culture of origin. and sometimes it's because there is something there that speaks to the human condition and resonates with the reader. When it's the latter, we should recognize when cultural norms have shifted and artifacts of the original culture interfere with appreciated the work's soul-song. That said, I do think it's worthwhile to keep the original for mature readers looking to understand the original culture (in the case of the former) or who recognize the appeal of the work despite cultural differences rendered by time.

On the other hand if Shakespeare has taught us anything with his bawdiness obfuscated through the centuries, it's that in time scholars and high school teachers are more than ready to highlight the controversial portions and laugh off the controversy.

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Admittedly I do not know what these books sold for before recent events but I did take notice of what they are selling for now. Here is what I see on Ebay this morning:Untitled-1.thumb.jpg.5dee504d5098f552b21c7f6b35d21c7d.jpg

Edited by NeedleinA

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9 hours ago, mordorbund said:

When you read them The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn did you read Jim's name as Twain wrote it or did you censor it?

If I remember correctly, the n word was the only thing I just couldn't bring myself to utter.

I remember one of the Little House books, they're at a community festival, and Pa disappears.  He later shows up with a group of guys, in blackface, putting on a skit.  I remember a part of one verse was "look at those darkies go".  

Indeed, it's important to remember and teach history, the evolution of culture and thought.   I've never really had any shortage of such stories, as my WWII-era dad was one of the world's last great male chauvinist pigs, who literally hated the gender.  And the Japanese.  So I've told Grandpa Typical stories over the decades, highlighting things that people used to think.  (There are also no shortage of good things to say about the guy, but yeah, prior generations just plain old thought some stuff that didn't age well and needed to die off.)

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I have no idea how well this comports to modern Woke Theory, but . . . As an undergrad at BYU I was on the grounds crew with a female African American undergrad from Louisiana.  The two of us were raking leaves in Helaman Halls together one day when a couple of random freshman guys nearby (who hadn’t noticed us—if you ever want to be invisible, try getting a blue-collar job on an academic campus) greeted each other with the phrase “ ‘Sup, ni****?”.

My friend, being an assertive soul who never took crap from anyone, immediately tore off after them and . . . educated them.  As she and I we talked about it afterwards, she explained to me that her objection to the term actually didn’t have much to do with race.  She had simply been raised to view the N-word as a vulgarity—like the F-bomb—that civilized people generally, and Latter-day Saints generally, had no good reason to use.  

I don’t know how pervasive that perception is among African Americans.  But for some reason, it made me more sensitive to the term than I had previously been.  

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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21 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Indeed, it's important to remember and teach history, the evolution of culture and thought.   I've never really had any shortage of such stories, as my WWII-era dad was one of the world's last great male chauvinist pigs, who literally hated the gender.  And the Japanese.  So I've told Grandpa Typical stories over the decades, highlighting things that people used to think.  (There are also no shortage of good things to say about the guy, but yeah, prior generations just plain old thought some stuff that didn't age well and needed to die off.)

Going on a slight side-tangent.

I cannot speak on everything, but that is something that I can understand to a degree, especially for those from older generations. 

The Japanese should be treated with the respect we give to any other individual.  That was hard for many in the past.

During World War 2 the Japanese attacked the United States of America.  The War with them brought great suffering.  Certain things became more scarce during the war than they were during the Great Depression even.  There was rationing.  Fortunately, many in the U.S. were united in a common cause and bore these trials.  More occurred though.

I have an Uncle I never knew as well as a cousin.  Both died in the Pacific.  That can be a heavy thing.  When you have relatives that were killed by another nation, hard feelings arise. 

To put it into context, there have been about as many who have died from Covid-19 as did in World War 2.  Many of us know others who have died from it (I have had several friends and acquaintances die from it thus far, though it may be my age group is more greatly affected by it).  Imagine, if one can, that it was not an invisible disease that caused these deaths, but other people from a hostile nation that were killing your friends and relatives.  How would that make you feel towards those people.

There was great grief and great anger.  As I said, this affected me personally to a degree, though ironically I also had relatives who fought on both sides (Axis and Allies), my direct family were in the U.S. and were loyal patriots.  I was born after the War and so never got to know that Uncle or cousin that died during the War.  I saw the affect it had.  Hard feelings arise from those situations.  Those hard feelings can also be passed down to children. 

My uncle suffered a particularly horrible death at the hands of the Japanese in World War 2.  It affected my family deeply.  The death of my cousin was not something that was easy to accept either, but that was easier to accept how they died than my uncle.  There are some I do not think ever got over it. 

To understand the depths of the pain that the death caused could help explain why some cannot get over such things.  In some ways, just talking about those who killed or hurt you is like a curse word.  Such pain can be transferred to your children as well.

One of the several great balms of the gospel is that of forgiving.  Forgiveness can be hard, especially when trying to forgive those who did great harm to friends or relatives.  One of my Father's great fears was dealing with my Son-in-Law who is a Japanese-American.  He was afraid of how the rest of the family would react to my daughter marrying someone of Japanese descent.  I am happy to say that after these many decades, forgiveness truly is a great gift.  It is not that my son-in-law is responsible for the actions of the Japanese in any way.  He had no part in that war long ago.  But, it was a forgiveness of the pain that is seen connected to the Japanese people that gave the balm and enabled my family to be able to interact with those of that descent later. 

My son-in-law is a wonderful person.  He is terrific for my daughter and I am glad he is part of our family.  The gospel (even for those who are not members, but read the words of the Lord and follow them) offers a wonderful message in it's message of repentance, forgiveness, and peace.  It is not always easy.  However, we are better people for it and sometimes it offers a greater gift by following it if we heed it.  I know that it has brought this miracle to my family and we have been greatly blessed by our interactions with my son-in-law.

But I can also understand those who do not have that message or struggle with it.  Bitter feelings can be hard to overcome, especially with things such as occurred during World War 2.  That entire generation and their children suffered from it, and many still have a hard time with things that occurred during that war (well, of my generation and for those who are still alive of our parents generation).  Some may never overcome that bitterness and anger.

I love my son-in-law and my daughter.  I love my grandchildren.  I have learned a great deal from them and am grateful for them.  I cherish that family.  I can understand those that may not have been so blessed as I have though.

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Yep, very relevant thoughts, and you nail why my dad despised the Japanese people.  My father had no shortage of good character traits, but nope, he never availed himself of any healing balms of forgiveness.  Once he had a grudge, he nursed and grew it for a lifetime.

I remember growing up in the '70's, we'd often go to one of the various American Legion buildings for burgers.  A place my dad could go where he was surrounded by people who felt, acted, and talked like him.   Everyone was ticked off about women in the workforce taking men's jobs, nobody liked blacks or the Japanese, everyone was suspicious that someone might be a homosexual.  For whatever reason though, nobody had any hard feelings about the Germans.  I suppose they were so thoroughly beaten, and the occupation had lasted so long and involved so many Americans, that there was sort of a shared cultural understanding between Americans and the German people, US military and the regular German infantry.

The more I think about those years and my upbringing, the more amazed I am that so much of it simply didn't stick.  The hatred and prejudices just never rubbed off on me, I was offended by them even before I was baptized.

Anyway, I hope to someday read Dr. Seuss to my grandkids.

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6 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yep, very relevant thoughts, and you nail why my dad despised the Japanese people.  My father had no shortage of good character traits, but nope, he never availed himself of any healing balms of forgiveness.  Once he had a grudge, he nursed and grew it for a lifetime.

I remember growing up in the '70's, we'd often go to one of the various American Legion buildings for burgers.  A place my dad could go where he was surrounded by people who felt, acted, and talked like him.   Everyone was ticked off about women in the workforce taking men's jobs, nobody liked blacks or the Japanese, everyone was suspicious that someone might be a homosexual.  For whatever reason though, nobody had any hard feelings about the Germans.  I suppose they were so thoroughly beaten, and the occupation had lasted so long and involved so many Americans, that there was sort of a shared cultural understanding between Americans and the German people, US military and the regular German infantry.

The more I think about those years and my upbringing, the more amazed I am that so much of it simply didn't stick.  The hatred and prejudices just never rubbed off on me, I was offended by them even before I was baptized.

Anyway, I hope to someday read Dr. Seuss to my grandkids.

At least in my grandparents’ view—our involvement in Europe was mostly a businesslike “oh, I suppose we’d better go and help our English cousins out, and if that puts us in conflict with the Germans then let’s just get it done”.

But the Japanese—they had done a sneak attack against us, it was personal, and the Yanks were out for revenge.  My grandmother always insisted that the *real* necessity of the internment camps was to protect ethnic Japanese from mob violence.

It’s easy, in hindsight, to chalk it all up to racism; and that was probably part of it.  But it seems like to our ancestors, the way we got into conflict with each nation, mattered very much.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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