Science vs. Faith

[annewandering]

Pardon me but epilepsy is not a choice. If it were, trust me, no one would have it. Kindly use a different, more appropriate, example.

[JudoMinja]

Elohim created their spirits so yes, they are technically his offspring.

On the other hand those of the third host that followed Lucifer have probably been 'addopted' as his children. I would assume that they consider Lucifer as their father...

This supports what you are saying here, specifically the bolded:

""And it came to pass that the God of heaven looked upon the residue of the people, and he wept; and Enoch bore record of it, saying: How is it that the heavens weep, and shed forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains?

And Enoch said unto the Lord: How is it that thou canst weep, seeing thou art holy, and from all eternity to all eternity?...

The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood;...

But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?" Moses 7:28-29, 32-33 & 37

Apparently, to a certain extent, we choose our father, just as we choose everything else. In that sense, we will all become as our "father", because our father is the one whom we exemplify, follow, and strive to mimic. We draw near unto the Lord, or we draw near unto Lucifer. Either way... we become like our father.

[Seminarysnoozer]

You stated it was not a natural progression for Heavenly Father's spirit children to receive material bodies... You are wrong. It is the natural progression.

I never stated this. In fact, this statement is more similar to what I was trying to say, that we "receive" material bodies. I was saying that the attachment of a body to a spirit is not an observed occurrence without the body given to that individual from someone else. It does not happen intrinsically by nature of that spirit being. It is earned and given as a part of progression. Their are requirements that have to be met to reach that status. A spirit being who does not move forward with some measure of valiancy cannot "receive" a body.

Without the time to find the quote right now, I recall reading somewhere that God offered the intelligences a chance to become like Him for those who wanted to become like Him. To me, that implies an idea that there are some that have no intention of becoming like Him. That is not us, of course, because we kept our first estate, so all of us want to be like Him. Along the way though, there are some that realize the price to pay to be like Him is too great, like a third of the host of heaven, rebelling against the idea of self sacrifice, the price was too great, they are no longer in need of a body, even if they think they want one. A spirit who has no chance for glory has no need for a physical body anymore than a person who doesn't want to be a doctor needs to go to medical school.

When giving scriptures about the spirits and souls in this world of course, keep in mind, that those scriptures are referring to a group of spirits specifically who want to be like our Heavenly Father because we all kept our first estate. We earned this blessing and degree of glory because of the valiant choices made in the premortal life. Without valiant choices a spirit has no "natural" affiliation with a body.

I am not sure what your objection is to this line of thought. For me, it makes me appreciate even more this blessing of the body and the potential for a perfected body as it was not in my natural power to obtain one on my own. I am that much more grateful to a loving Father who has given me a gift that goes beyond birth itself. He is not just a "birth" parent so-to-speak, He is a Father of a plan that allows me to go beyond what a spirit-intelligence could do on her own.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Pardon me but epilepsy is not a choice. If it were, trust me, no one would have it. Kindly use a different, more appropriate, example.

Who said epilepsy was a choice? Not sure where you are reading that.

All the examples I gave are not a choice, other than the choice that was made before we came here to say that we would be subjected to the "evils" and corruption of this existence as a test to see if we would follow the spirit or carnal drives. Corruption occurred as a result of the fall. As a whole, we all made a decision to accept this fallen state for a period of time and all the challenges we face in this life before this life began. To give objection to that idea was called being rebellious to the plan. The people that chose to not face any kind of physical challenge didn't come here.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Elohim created their spirits so yes, they are technically his offspring.

On the other hand those of the third host that followed Lucifer have probably been 'adopted' as his children. I would assume that they consider Lucifer as their father...

I can accept those definitions, but then a spirit offspring, at that moment has no guarantee by natural means that he or she will have a physical body. I suppose one could say that the opposite of "natural means" would be "divine means" which might clarify where I am coming from. That "divine means" is a gift, something that would not happen without effort beyond our own individual capacity. Lucifer thought he could do it on his own, obviously, that is not possible ... maybe because it is not intrinsic to a spirit being to find affinity with a physical body unless expressly prepared to do so even if the spirit wanted it.

[mikbone]

I never stated this.

Your words:

I also disagree with the notion that to have a body is part of the "natural" progression of our being.

Without the time to find the quote right now, I recall reading somewhere that God offered the intelligences a chance to become like Him for those who wanted to become like Him.

Take your time. I would appreciate the quote.

Edited March 9, 2012 by mikbone

[Snow]

While I'm not a fan of Janeane Garafalo, she does have a point. Much of Christianity today attempts to refute scientific evidence. They insist in a 6 day creation; dinosaurs that dwelt with men; 6000 year old earth; etc.

Should we always go with the Church's interpretation of things, we would still think the earth was the center of the universe, with all planets and stars revolving around it.

Sometimes it is religion that has to give to new evidence. When it does not, it gives credence to the concept that religion has nothing to do with evidence, and so must entirely be made up.

As mikbone quotes JS regarding matter (and correctly so), I could add that JS' nephew Joseph F Smith, as well as Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie (JSF's son and grandson-in-law) were insistent on a 6000 year old earth, no dinosaurs, no evolution. He also dismissed the idea of man ever going to the moon.

So, while Joseph Smith may have been enlightened, it seems that when it comes to science, our own church went through a Dark Ages.

Many in the Church today are still in the dark ages... Rejecting evolution or holding to a literal flood as described in the Bible. There's no shortage of unenlightend Mormons.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Your words:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seminarysnoozer View Post

I never stated this.

Your words:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seminarysnoozer View Post

I also disagree with the notion that to have a body is part of the "natural" progression of our being.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seminarysnoozer View Post

Without the time to find the quote right now, I recall reading somewhere that God offered the intelligences a chance to become like Him for those who wanted to become like Him.

Take your time. I would appreciate the quote.

Take your time. I would appreciate the quote.

Yes, but I could not agree with the your claim because you used the word "receive". That is the difference between what I said and what you claimed I said.

I admit that I don't know much about the "natural" progression of spirits, so my beliefs are definitely pliable as far as that goes. I am simply trying to couch this in terms of what I tend to believe that the body is a reward for keeping our first estate and wouldn't be a part of the spirit life without the opportunity to be in such a program. Unfortunately, I have limited time but I know I have seen words such as "privilege" and "gift" in relation to our "receiving" the body. In a gross sense, this would be similar to my parents wear clothes all the time, but I was not born with clothes. Is wearing clothes a "natural" progression of our mortal being? I wouldn't call it that. Similarly, the gift of mortality and the second estate is one that is given beyond our "natural" spirit body life, as it has to be given and received based in merit and achievement.

Also as it states in Gospel Principles: "God is not only our Ruler and Creator; He is also our Heavenly Father. All men and women are literally the sons and daughters of God. “Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335)." Our spirits were raised to "maturity". The "natural" progression of the spirit was matured at that point, before getting a body.