How do we "see" the violence in the bible?

[carlimac]

I'm putting this under general discussion because I think it's less about LDS beliefs and more about some general feelings of secularists about the bible.

This is part of a discussion I've had on facebook with a friend of a friend. (Why do I let myself get dragged into this muck?) I'd like to know how we should respond to this kind of tirade?

Her:

" That's all the old testament is about - war, murder, rape. Very violent text. Here are a few of those scriptures. Most are about rape. Some are just other forms of violence that are condoned in the bible.

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-16)

Numbers 31: 7-18 This is too long to post. You’ll have to look it up.

Judges 21:10-24 Also too long to post.

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14) As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

(2 Samuel 12:11-14) Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down. Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]

Me:

"I just have to point out that it's really easy to pull scriptures out of the Bible, isolate them and highlight them out of context. Yes that all sounds horrible and violent but you need to understand the historical and cultural significance of the times. Some of it was part of the Law of Moses which was done away with after the death of Christ. Much of it is symbolic. Every writer who contributed to the Bible had a different style of conveying a message. Every verse of scripture cannot be taken literally and applied to our culture today. The Bible needs to be read with spiritual eyes and a humble and contrite heart to get it's true message. Otherwise it's all nonsense."

Her:

"I've, of course heard all those apologist comments before. And I have read the entire bible several times. So, I'm not taking anything out of context. Just couldn't really post the entire old testament here. Whether it was the law of Moses or not isn't really the point. If this type of violence was at anytime condoned by "God", I have a problem with that! Don't YOU???? And as for whether it's symbolic, it's interesting how Christians claim passages are symbolic if they sound horrendous like these scriptures, but literal if it supports their cause - like proving that God hates homosexuality. Convenient!"

Any ideas?

[Vort]

She may not (or may) be taking the verses out of context, but she most definitely is taking history out of context. Most of us have never seen war, real and close up. A few of us have lost loved ones to the violence of war, but mostly we are not directly touched by the harsh, ugly realities of warfare. And for the most part, we have not been for probably two full generations. Not only that, but even when we as a nation have been at war (though undeclared), most people see it only in news reports and images. The only people directly affected are soldiers and their families.

Do you have any idea how unusual this is in human history? Perhaps "unheard of" would be closer to reality.

Biblical warfare is a fair approximation of how human beings have always lived. Technology changes, but human nature stays constant. The Bible reflects reality, no matter how much you don't like it. And God deals in reality.

I do not understand the Biblical passages where God appears to condone or even command the slaughter of innocents. But the fact that I (or your friend, or anyone else) don't understand does not therefore mean it's evil or false.

[rameumptom]

Yes, the OT has some very terrible events in it. But the things taught Moses were actually a step up from what was the norm in his day. Most nations did not offer peace as an option.

That said, our modern culture is not so peaceful, either. WWI and II led to the deaths of tens of millions of people. Soviets and Communist Chinese slaughtered tens of millions of their own people. Pol Pot slaughtered over 1 million in Cambodia's killing fields, including teachers and doctors, in an attempt to return to an agrarian communism. The United States killed over one hundred thousand Germans in Dresden by firebombing, and another 150,000 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki with two bombs.

Hitler used doctors and scientists to dissect humans and create weapons of mass destruction. How is modern science and atheism (communism, socialism) any better than the Law of Moses?

That said, what I would do is share my testimony of the good that Christianity has done in the world - from the first Jesuit schools and hospitals over a millennium ago, to the great outreach done throughout the world to feed starving children, assist during great disasters, etc. If we note the pacifist teachings of Christ (turn the other cheek), we can do great things on earth for our fellow men.

[Windseeker]

The world was not (still isn't) a nice place and if Israel had buried their swords Gods chosen people would have been wiped off the map a long time ago. Killing the men and forcing the women to bare Israelite children was in some cases a way of ensuring their survival as ugly as it sounds. But this was not always the option and sometimes it meant completely wiping out entire groups of people. These groups if they had survived may not only have wiped out Israel but could have made another flood necessary, we don't know.

I too am grateful to live in a time of the "new law" as delievered by the Savior. It's had an astounding impact on the world at large. I served a mission in Japan and they are peace loving people, it's amazing to think how much their culture changed after close relations with our Christian nation.

[carlimac]

By the way, this was in response to the other facebook friend's posting Kirk Cameron's interview.

So I agree with the war part of it, but the scriptures that sound like God is condoning rape and adultery... that's a little harder to explain. There has to be an explanation, though. Mine wasn't good enough apparently.

[Blackmarch]

I'm putting this under general discussion because I think it's less about LDS beliefs and more about some general feelings of secularists about the bible.

This is part of a discussion I've had on facebook with a friend of a friend. (Why do I let myself get dragged into this muck?) I'd like to know how we should respond to this kind of tirade?

Her:

" That's all the old testament is about - war, murder, rape. Very violent text. Here are a few of those scriptures. Most are about rape. Some are just other forms of violence that are condoned in the bible.

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-16)

Numbers 31: 7-18 This is too long to post. You’ll have to look it up.

Judges 21:10-24 Also too long to post.

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14) As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

(2 Samuel 12:11-14) Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down. Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]

Me:

"I just have to point out that it's really easy to pull scriptures out of the Bible, isolate them and highlight them out of context. Yes that all sounds horrible and violent but you need to understand the historical and cultural significance of the times. Some of it was part of the Law of Moses which was done away with after the death of Christ. Much of it is symbolic. Every writer who contributed to the Bible had a different style of conveying a message. Every verse of scripture cannot be taken literally and applied to our culture today. The Bible needs to be read with spiritual eyes and a humble and contrite heart to get it's true message. Otherwise it's all nonsense."

Her:

"I've, of course heard all those apologist comments before. And I have read the entire bible several times. So, I'm not taking anything out of context. Just couldn't really post the entire old testament here. Whether it was the law of Moses or not isn't really the point. If this type of violence was at anytime condoned by "God", I have a problem with that! Don't YOU???? And as for whether it's symbolic, it's interesting how Christians claim passages are symbolic if they sound horrendous like these scriptures, but literal if it supports their cause - like proving that God hates homosexuality. Convenient!"

Any ideas?

God chose at one point to wipe out humanity, both guilty and innocent alike, save for a few individuals.

Yet the same being decided it worth his time to touch my life and make things known unto me, whereas no other God or similar being has done so.

As to the verses she gave my first response would be the two verses have absolutely no relation to each other.

to reply to the one from Deut- "so they should have just burned them all alive, instead of just the adult men?"

[mnn727]

You asked how we see violence in the Bible so I will give you my personal opinion which is NOT to be confused with LDS beliefs or Doctrine.

I believe much of the O.T. is about mans and specifically Israels attempt to explain things they didn't understand and how to deal with others. I PERSONALLY don't think most of the O.T. is 'inspired' Scripture.

And yes that is opposed to what the Church teaches. So how do I reconcile that with my LDS beliefs/membership? Because you can still find moral lessons in much of it. Just as you can find moral lessons in Aesop's fables, Grimm Fairy tales and even Star Wars and other works of fiction.

I know many will disagree with me but I'm sticking with it.

[Snow]

Things aren't out of context. The OT writers blamed all sorts of horrible things they did on God.

Think what a different tome it would be if God had written it instead of man.