Coffee/Tea restriction actual doctrine?

[grauchy123]

In the wake of the recent use of the word folklore by the church's PR department to describe past practices and policies (regarding blacks & priesthood). I have begun to wonder what *current* practices and policies are likely really just folkloric and not actual doctrine.

Does anyone here know if the dietary restriction on Coffee/Tea comes from an actual revelation or is this just an add-on, a passed down tradition, merely folklore?

Thank you.

[Vort]

Behold the unavoidable consequence of insisting that previous generations were benighted and ignorant.

[estradling75]

You are comparing Apples to Oranges here...

You are comparing the whys of the Priesthood restriction... to the fact of the Word of Wisdom restriction

A better comparison would be fact to fact and whys to whys...

Fact Until 1978 the Priesthood was restricted.

Fact Currently Coffee and Tea are restricted.

Why the priesthood was restricted is unknown to us. But many people have speculated. Many ideas have were put forth. Some of which has now been classified as folklore.

Why Coffee and Tea are restricted is unknown to us. But many people have speculated. Many ideas have been put forth (caffeine, tanic acid etc.) Some of which should really be classified as folklore.

[grauchy123]

the fact of the Word of Wisdom restriction

Yes but where is Coffee/Tea revealed as having anything to do with the Word of Wisdom? I can't find any solid prophetic quotes revealing it as such. Still seems like tradition.

[estradling75]

Yes but where is Coffee/Tea revealed as having anything to do with the Word of Wisdom? I can't find any solid prophetic quotes revealing it as such. Still seems like tradition.

Define what you mean by prophetic quotes? Not in the standard works? If that is what you mean then the priesthood ban had none either. If you mean spoken of by people we regard as prophets and apostles while acting within their calling then we find plenty for both.

[grauchy123]

If you mean spoken of by people we regard as prophets and apostles while acting within their calling then we find plenty for both.

Yes, that would be awesome. Do you have any quotes like that for Coffee/Tea restriction?

[laffopuritain]

Yes but where is Coffee/Tea revealed as having anything to do with the Word of Wisdom? I can't find any solid prophetic quotes revealing it as such.

That's where you come in.

Weather or not we have a solid quoted revelation isn't really the point. The Word of Wisdom is "a principle with promise" which is

"all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones; And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures; And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint. And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen."

I have a testimony of this principle as it applies to Coffee and Tea. In the end, personal Testimony is worth a thousand prophetic quotes.

[estradling75]

Yes, that would be awesome. Do you have any quotes like that for Coffee/Tea restriction?

Start here

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Search

There are 55 general conference talks about the Word of Wisdom in that link...

If you can get through all of those and still say that it hasn't spoken of by people we regard as prophets and apostles while acting within their calling... We then we have wildly different understanding of that that means

[Tyler90AZ]

I can not think of a better word to describe racists then ignorant. On the other hand, coffee and tee being banned is logical, I have seen many a people addicted to caffeine, which is in both of these products.

[MarginOfError]

Some of the early Brethren explained what was meant by this phrase. Hyrum Smith, brother of the Prophet, wrote: “And again, ‘hot drinks are not for the body, or belly;’ there are many who wonder what this can mean; whether it refers to tea, or coffee, or not. I say it does refer to tea, and coffee.” (“The Word of Wisdom,” Times and Seasons, 1 June 1842, p. 800.)

The Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said ‘hot drinks’ in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. . . .

“Tea and coffee . . . are what the Lord meant when He said ‘hot drinks.’” (In Joel H. Johnson, Voice from the Mountains [salt Lake City: Juvenile Instructor Office, 1881], p. 12.)

Doctrine and Covenants Institute Student Manual

It is semi-folkloric, to be honest. Of the two quotes in the Institute Manual, one is given 9 years after the Word of Wisdom was first recorded, but still within the lifetime of Joseph Smith. The fact that Hyrum said it gives it a little more credence.

The other quote appears nearly fifty years after the recording of the Word of Wisdom, and almost 40 years after Smith's death. This could be a little more suspect, but there's little to say it isn't accurate given the Hyrum Smith quote.

Coffee and tea weren't made part of the temple recommend questions until much later.

But the existence of such quotes doesn't speak to whether it is an inspired directive, or derived from a leader's personal biases. For that, you'll have to rely on prayer and the Spirit.

[MarginOfError]

I can not think of a better word to describe racists then ignorant. On the other hand, coffee and tee being banned is logical, I have seen many a people addicted to caffeine, which is in both of these products.

Here you make the assumption that the prohibition is based on caffeine. I don't know that we have sufficient evidence to demonstrate that.

[laffopuritain]

I don't know that we have sufficient evidence to demonstrate that.

Also assumed is that the priesthood ban was done because of someones thoughts that one race is 'better' than another- the definition of racism. We don't have sufficient evidence for that either.

[Vort]

Also assumed is that the priesthood ban was done because of someones thoughts that one race is 'better' than another- the definition of racism. We don't have sufficient evidence for that either.

And we're not likely to, given that (as you say) it's the very definition of racism. Suppose a sincere, honest academic requests funding to study whether differences in performance correlate with racial categories. How likely is he to be funded for such (by definition) racist research?

In any case, the assumption you mention is explicitly contrary to requests that we not speculate as to reasons. As JAG pointed out, whether this request is obeyed depends on what your political opinion is.

Apparently it's wrong for a BYU professor to speculate as to why the Priesthood was restricted from black people, because his speculations were deemed "racist" (since he did not uniformly condemn the practice). In contrast, it's not wrong for MoE and his ilk to speculate as to why, because their speculations label former generations as "racist", which of course is the enlightened (barf) perspective.

[Jezebel2011]

Joseph Smith “defined ‘hot drinks’ as tea and coffee, the two common household beverages of the day. Joel H. Johnson, with whose family the Prophet was intimate, relates that on a Sabbath day in July (1833) following the giving of the “Word of Wisdom,” when both Joseph and Hyrum Smith were in the stand, the Prophet said to the Saints: “I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said ‘hot drinks’ in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. Tea and coffee are what the Lord meant when he said ‘hot drinks.’ ” [John A. Widtsoe and Leah D. Widtsoe, The Word of Wisdom: A Modern Interpretation

[Tyler90AZ]

Here you make the assumption that the prohibition is based on caffeine. I don't know that we have sufficient evidence to demonstrate that.

Don't get me wrong I like a Dr.Pepper once in awhile also. However, if we break down this revelation, we will find that caffeine needs to be avoided. The term Hot Drinks clearly refers to Tea and Coffee. Why was the term hot drinks used instead of caffeine? That term was probably used because it would resonate with the saints at the time. I would also venture to guess, caffeine probably wasn't mentioned regularly. With the knowledge we have now, that caffeine is what makes tea and coffee addictive, it is best we avoid that. I am sure if caffeine would have been a regular word in the early saints vocabulary, it would have been in the revelation. I also wonder if sugary drinks with caffeine in them were even around at the time, for it to be mentioned in a revelation? Although they may not be addicting to us, the Lord does things for the least of his Saints.

[MarginOfError]

Don't get me wrong I like a Dr.Pepper once in awhile also. However, if we break down this revelation, we will find that caffeine needs to be avoided. The term Hot Drinks clearly refers to Tea and Coffee. Why was the term hot drinks used instead of caffeine? That term was probably used because it would resonate with the saints at the time. I would also venture to guess, caffeine probably wasn't mentioned regularly. With the knowledge we have now, that caffeine is what makes tea and coffee addictive, it is best we avoid that. I am sure if caffeine would have been a regular word in the early saints vocabulary, it would have been in the revelation. I also wonder if sugary drinks with caffeine in them were even around at the time, for it to be mentioned in a revelation? Although they may not be addicting to us, the Lord does things for the least of his Saints.

The First Presidency said more-or-less the same thing. But you could also extend that argument to sugars. In short, saying it's about the caffeine isn't really accurate if you're talking about the addictive nature of it; caffeine isn't the only addictive substance we use in food and drink.

“With reference to cola drinks, the Church has never officially taken a position on this matter, but the leaders of the Church have advised, and we do now specifically advise, against the use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs under circumstances that would result in acquiring the habit. Any beverage that contains ingredients harmful to the body should be avoided.” ( Priesthood Bulletin, Feb. 1972, p. 4.)

[pam]

Don't get me wrong I like a Dr.Pepper once in awhile also. However, if we break down this revelation, we will find that caffeine needs to be avoided. The term Hot Drinks clearly refers to Tea and Coffee. Why was the term hot drinks used instead of caffeine? That term was probably used because it would resonate with the saints at the time. I would also venture to guess, caffeine probably wasn't mentioned regularly. With the knowledge we have now, that caffeine is what makes tea and coffee addictive, it is best we avoid that. I am sure if caffeine would have been a regular word in the early saints vocabulary, it would have been in the revelation. I also wonder if sugary drinks with caffeine in them were even around at the time, for it to be mentioned in a revelation? Although they may not be addicting to us, the Lord does things for the least of his Saints.

Yet at the same time, using that argument, if it is in fact caffeine, why hasn't those soft drinks and energy drinks now been put on the restricted or banned list? They haven't.

[MarginOfError]

And since I'm on a roll with making people's heads explode right now:

In the wake of the recent use of the word folklore by the church's PR department to describe past practices and policies (regarding blacks & priesthood). I have begun to wonder what *current* practices and policies are likely really just folkloric and not actual doctrine.

Does anyone here know if the dietary restriction on Coffee/Tea comes from an actual revelation or is this just an add-on, a passed down tradition, merely folklore?

Thank you.

I might just point out that the Word of Wisdom isn't doctrine to begin with. (To be fair, neither was the priesthood ban)

[Tyler90AZ]

Can you really ever avoid sugars though?

[Dravin]

And since I'm on a roll with making people's heads explode right now:

I might just point out that the Word of Wisdom isn't doctrine to begin with. (To be fair, neither was the priesthood ban)

You'll need to define doctrine here. It's canonized which is one of the stricter standards used for doctrine by the Church. By what metric is the Word of Wisdom not doctrine? If you mean to say the requirement of adherence for temple attendance or baptism isn't doctrine you need to make that distinction.

[Tyler90AZ]

Yet at the same time, using that argument, if it is in fact caffeine, why hasn't those soft drinks and energy drinks now been put on the restricted or banned list? They haven't.

They should make banning energy drinks a priority. People my age(21) are addicted to those things badly, some drink 4 or 5 a day. They are more dangerous and addicting then coffee. I have drank them before, but never really enjoyed them.

[Vort]

You'll need to define doctrine here. It's canonized which is one of the stricter standards used for doctrine by the Church. By what metric is the Word of Wisdom not doctrine? If you mean to say the requirement of adherence for temple attendance or baptism isn't doctrine you need to make that distinction.

As far as I know, adherence to the Word of Wisdom is indeed a prerequisite for temple attendance.

[grauchy123]

It is semi-folkloric, to be honest. Of the two quotes in the Institute Manual, one is given 9 years after the Word of Wisdom was first recorded, but still within the lifetime of Joseph Smith. The fact that Hyrum said it gives it a little more credence.

The other quote appears nearly fifty years after the recording of the Word of Wisdom, and almost 40 years after Smith's death. This could be a little more suspect, but there's little to say it isn't accurate given the Hyrum Smith quote.

Coffee and tea weren't made part of the temple recommend questions until much later.

But the existence of such quotes doesn't speak to whether it is an inspired directive, or derived from a leader's personal biases. For that, you'll have to rely on prayer and the Spirit.

I came to the same conclusion after reading that Joel Johnson quote. It's not a primary source that's for certain and neither was Hyrum.

Oh and by the way Coffee and tea are *not* part of the temple recommend questions. At least not today they may have been in the past but I don't know. The script question is

Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?

[MarginOfError]

You'll need to define doctrine here. It's canonized which is one of the stricter standards used for doctrine by the Church. By what metric is the Word of Wisdom not doctrine? If you mean to say the requirement of adherence for temple attendance or baptism isn't doctrine you need to make that distinction.

The Song of Solomon is canonized, but I don't know many people that give it the weight of doctrine.

Dietary codes aren't static through the scriptures. That makes me hesitant to call each iteration doctrine. More accurately, I'd say that each code is an interpretation and application of doctrine that is customized to the time in which it is given.

I'd readily agree that the Word of Wisdom is a commandment based on the doctrines established in places like, 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 (if we go for the low hanging fruit).

[MarginOfError]

Can you really ever avoid sugars though?

I know people that have done it, but it seems extreme to me.

They should make banning energy drinks a priority. People my age(21) are addicted to those things badly, some drink 4 or 5 a day. They are more dangerous and addicting then coffee. I have drank them before, but never really enjoyed them.

I disagree. I think we should teach people to make better choices.