Is it ethical for cops to lie, coerce?

[mirkwood]

This thread is crying out for mirkwood. MIRKY! COME COMMENT, PLEASE!

Yea I get enough abuse with adding to it here.

[kayne]

Remember there are thousands of "innocent" people in our jails. I'm sure they've heard "I'm not drunk" so many times that they have to use some kind of tactic in their work.

yet one can smell alcohol normally with ease and pass or fail a breathe test.

but to the point nope cops shouldnt lie. its morally wrong to lie. its hypocritcal a cop can lie and get off scot free but lieing to a cop is obstruction of justice. furthermore in a debate if an honest man loses to a liar the honest man is still innocent after the evidence against him is that of a lie.

cops then use this i can lie nonsense to make up all kinds of stories to illegally search a car intimidate and all other manners of abuse of power. a cops word in court then becomes so much greater than that of a civilian. cops are basically allowed to get away with murder under this pretext.

if i was a sheriff and one of my officers got caught intentially lieing....that scum would get one fair warning and a few days off. strike two = you are canned. this teaches abuse of power will not be tolerated under any circumstance.

lieing officers hurt this great nations freedom.

point? government officials should ALWAYS have less power than civilians. ALWAYS. currently its reversed as such people tend to fear police which is unfortunently backwards to the design of the constitution. as such a cop lieing should be a far greater offense than a civilian lieing.

ask yourself this....should justice really be carried out by a lie????

My response:

"Officer, I respect your authority; and if you believe you have probable cause then I understand I have no legal grounds to stop you. But please know that I do not consent to this search."

i agree. unfortunently many are not fully aware of their rights made even worse by corrupt lawyers that trample all over the bill of rights and make a general mockery of the justice system. couple this with unfortunently many dont carry guns with them and you have two intimidating officers with guns and handcuffs going on about they want to search your car??? and whos word is generally in a court greater than yours? while what you say is a good firm polite reply it ultimately means nothing when you are unarmed and against power hungry officers and even when armed the law will likely just blast you for 30 years for shooting a cop even though the cop commited the greater offense of wanting to violate your right to having an illegal search and carrying a gun. many faced with that potential prospect of 30 years in jail will just say search my car if that will get you to go away.

cause as i pointed out police have the power sadly. and more often than not abuse it like the power greedy folks they are.

[Traveler]

Hey, I'm glad they pulled her over and I agree about the windshield wipers. But I also doubt lives were at risk--slowing down, as my sister did, is usually recommended in inclement conditions.

It sounds like you're supporting cops lying, as if that would be preferable to a simple "we don't like your driving and we feel the need to pull you over".

I would go back and reference your first post in this thread. It was you that pointed out that your sister is a poor driver and a threat. Poor driving is dangerous driving and is a threat to others properly and safely using the public highways.

Again referencing your first post - you indicated that your sister’s driving was so dangerous and threatening to other’s (experiencing the danger and threat caused by your sister) that they called the authorities for help and protection. Dude - this is serious - so serious that you and I are far more likely to be killed by someone like your sister than we are by foreign terrorist trying to blow up an airplane.

The next point is that you sister knew in advance the wipers are unreliable and therefore unsafe. And finally when the cops caught up to your sister they were convinced just watching her driving that she was either drunk or high.

Good grief man - how much worse does this have to get - quit trying to divert blame - serious Dude. Either convince you sister to get some serious hard core driver training or get her off the road. The cops are not the problem - especially in this case -- they are the solution. GET A CLUE!!!

The Traveler

[beefche]

couple this with unfortunently many dont carry guns with them and you have two intimidating officers with guns and handcuffs going on about they want to search your car??? and whos word is generally in a court greater than yours? while what you say is a good firm polite reply it ultimately means nothing when you are unarmed and against power hungry officers and even when armed the law will likely just blast you for 30 years for shooting a cop even though the cop commited the greater offense of wanting to violate your right to having an illegal search and carrying a gun.

Are you actually saying that searching your car illegally is justification for taking another's life?

[Traveler]

yet one can smell alcohol normally with ease and pass or fail a breathe test.

but to the point nope cops shouldnt lie. its morally wrong to lie. its hypocritcal a cop can lie and get off scot free but lieing to a cop is obstruction of justice. furthermore in a debate if an honest man loses to a liar the honest man is still innocent after the evidence against him is that of a lie.

cops then use this i can lie nonsense to make up all kinds of stories to illegally search a car intimidate and all other manners of abuse of power. a cops word in court then becomes so much greater than that of a civilian. cops are basically allowed to get away with murder under this pretext.

if i was a sheriff and one of my officers got caught intentially lieing....that scum would get one fair warning and a few days off. strike two = you are canned. this teaches abuse of power will not be tolerated under any circumstance.

lieing officers hurt this great nations freedom.

point? government officials should ALWAYS have less power than civilians. ALWAYS. currently its reversed as such people tend to fear police which is unfortunently backwards to the design of the constitution. as such a cop lieing should be a far greater offense than a civilian lieing.

ask yourself this....should justice really be carried out by a lie????

i agree. unfortunently many are not fully aware of their rights made even worse by corrupt lawyers that trample all over the bill of rights and make a general mockery of the justice system. couple this with unfortunently many dont carry guns with them and you have two intimidating officers with guns and handcuffs going on about they want to search your car??? and whos word is generally in a court greater than yours? while what you say is a good firm polite reply it ultimately means nothing when you are unarmed and against power hungry officers and even when armed the law will likely just blast you for 30 years for shooting a cop even though the cop commited the greater offense of wanting to violate your right to having an illegal search and carrying a gun. many faced with that potential prospect of 30 years in jail will just say search my car if that will get you to go away.

cause as i pointed out police have the power sadly. and more often than not abuse it like the power greedy folks they are.

I honestly do not believe you know what you are talking about. Bad cops are not near the problem that individuals unwilling to drive safely are. In Utah I call most of the drivers here “Utards” because they think they can talk on cell phones, put on makeup, adjust their radio discipline their kids and anything else they want rather than concentrate on their driving.

Statistics indicates that a person will break the law endangering other drivers over 100 times before they are pulled over by a cop. I have been a lot of places and I have stopped many times at accidents to offer assistance (I have had people die in my arms while trying to keep them alive while medical assistance is coming - caused by some nut job driving without regard for life) and in all my experience I have never encountered a bad cop - not a single one. I am not saying bad cops do not exist - just that you are far more likely to encounter drivers willing to deliberately and knowingly drive unsafely - and you are far more likely to know people that allow stupid driving among their friends - perhaps even encouraging it - than you will likely encounter a bad power hungry cop.

The Traveler

[Backroads]

I would go back and reference your first post in this thread. It was you that pointed out that your sister is a poor driver and a threat. Poor driving is dangerous driving and is a threat to others properly and safely using the public highways.

Again referencing your first post - you indicated that your sister’s driving was so dangerous and threatening to other’s (experiencing the danger and threat caused by your sister) that they called the authorities for help and protection. Dude - this is serious - so serious that you and I are far more likely to be killed by someone like your sister than we are by foreign terrorist trying to blow up an airplane.

The next point is that you sister knew in advance the wipers are unreliable and therefore unsafe. And finally when the cops caught up to your sister they were convinced just watching her driving that she was either drunk or high.

Good grief man - how much worse does this have to get - quit trying to divert blame - serious Dude. Either convince you sister to get some serious hard core driver training or get her off the road. The cops are not the problem - especially in this case -- they are the solution. GET A CLUE!!!

The Traveler

I also referenced in my first post that my sister, after quite the discussion with family, learned her lesson. I never said my sister's driving was dangerous. I said she slows down when she is unsure. I am perfectly aware of my sister's driving ability. I am not driving to divert blame. I am merely saying that the actual problem should be addressed rather than a made-up one. You seem to be obsessed that my sister is this high-speed road rager rather than the truth--someone who slows down she is frightened. No, that is not good driving, but it is not in the same category as swerving and high-speed driving. I am perfectly fine for my sister getting pulled over. I think she deserved it. I don't think she is a dangerous driver as you are suggesting it, just someone who slows down. In fact, I think it's wise to slow down/pull over when you realize there is a problem.

You are suggestion you are against punishing drivers for the actual problem and therefore encourage cops to ignore the actual problem. Wouldn't it be wiser to address a real problem? These cops did not care about the windshield wiper problem.

So, I ask you, is it better for a cop to address a real area of concern or to make one up?

I am also a female, by the way.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Backroads

[Vort]

I am also a female, by the way.

Pretty sure "dude" is non-sex-specific in common usage. D00d!

[Backroads]

Pretty sure "dude" is non-sex-specific in common usage. D00d!

But "man" isn't. I will never accept "man" in non-gender-specific slang.

[Suzie]

However, the one thing that does bother me is the cops apparently insisted to her they smelled alcohol on her... when she did not drink.

I figure this just might get a technique to get an actually drunk person to admit to drinking, but it also is essentially a lie.

How appropriate is that?

I don't know how appropriate is that but I'm pretty sure the technique works and get people (who otherwise would kill a pedestrian) out of the streets.

[mirkwood]

while what you say is a good firm polite reply it ultimately means nothing when you are unarmed and against power hungry officers and even when armed the law will likely just blast you for 30 years for shooting a cop even though the cop commited the greater offense of wanting to violate your right to having an illegal search and carrying a gun. many faced with that potential prospect of 30 years in jail will just say search my car if that will get you to go away.

Are you advocating shooting a police officer?

Mods/admins....I take extreme exception to this post and poster.

[pam]

In Utah I call most of the drivers here “Utards” because they think they can talk on cell phones, put on makeup, adjust their radio discipline their kids and anything else they want rather than concentrate on their driving.

And many find this term highly offensive. It's taking two words, Utah and retards, and combining them. To anyone that has or knows anyone that is mentally challenged "retard" is highly offensive.

[Vort]

But "man" isn't. I will never accept "man" in non-gender-specific slang.

Ease up, man.

[Traveler]

I also referenced in my first post that my sister, after quite the discussion with family, learned her lesson. I never said my sister's driving was dangerous. I said she slows down when she is unsure. I am perfectly aware of my sister's driving ability. I am not driving to divert blame. I am merely saying that the actual problem should be addressed rather than a made-up one. You seem to be obsessed that my sister is this high-speed road rager rather than the truth--someone who slows down she is frightened. No, that is not good driving, but it is not in the same category as swerving and high-speed driving. I am perfectly fine for my sister getting pulled over. I think she deserved it. I don't think she is a dangerous driver as you are suggesting it, just someone who slows down. In fact, I think it's wise to slow down/pull over when you realize there is a problem.

You are suggestion you are against punishing drivers for the actual problem and therefore encourage cops to ignore the actual problem. Wouldn't it be wiser to address a real problem? These cops did not care about the windshield wiper problem.

So, I ask you, is it better for a cop to address a real area of concern or to make one up?

I am also a female, by the way.

first - I apologize and am sorry that I addressed you as a male. However, currently driving really has nothing to do with gender as now days you have to look out for the women drivers of both sexes.

Driving slow can be hazardous and dangerous; an extreme example would be driving 10 miles/hour down the middle lane of a freeway. The fact that other drivers reported your sister would indicate that she is a hazard. Driving safely for conditions does not warrant one’s driving to be reported as hers was.

In addition, the fact that the cops were not concerned with the windshield wipers tells me they were not on a witch hunt to site your sister for anything they could find. They were not out to get her - It sounds like they saw her driving and her really poor driving concerned them - as it did others that saw and called in to report it and as it should you.

The Traveler

[Vort]

And many find this term highly offensive. It's taking two words, Utah and retards, and combining them. To anyone that has or knows anyone that is mentally challenged "retard" is highly offensive.

You misunderstand. Utahns are mostly Mormons, and as such are always running on MST (where "M" means "Mormon", not "Mountain"). Thus they are often late, or in other words, tardy. Hence Utards, rushing to get where they needed to be ten minutes ago.

[pam]

You misunderstand. Utahns are mostly Mormons, and as such are always running on MST (where "M" means "Mormon", not "Mountain"). Thus they are often late, or in other words, tardy. Hence Utards, rushing to get where they needed to be ten minutes ago.

Nice try Vort but used in Traveler's context and in the context that most everyone uses it..doesn't work.

But I give you credit for trying.

[Vort]

Nice try Vort but used in Traveler's context and in the context that most everyone uses it..doesn't work.

But I give you credit for trying.

Always the peacemaker. That's what they call me.

[pam]

Ugh Vort...wrong timing since mirkwood is attempting to get an answer from kayne whether he is advocating shooting a police officer.

[Vort]

Ugh Vort...wrong timing since mirkwood is attempting to get an answer from kayne whether he is advocating shooting a police officer.

D'oh.

Why do my peacemaking attempts always go awry?

[Backroads]

D'oh.

Why do my peacemaking attempts always go awry?

Well, if your avatar is your idea of "peacemaking"...

[Vort]

Well, if your avatar is your idea of "peacemaking"...

Nothing says "peace" like a thermonuclear device.

[Dravin]

Nothing says "peace" like a thermonuclear device.

"Rest in" being implied?

[Vort]

I didn't claim a thermonuclear device said "peace" well, only that nothing else says it the same.

[estradling75]

Well... I know that if I figured out someone was packing a thermonuclear device, I'd be all kinds of peaceful toward them

[NeuroTypical]

"Officer, I respect your authority; and if you believe you have probable cause then I understand I have no legal grounds to stop you. But please know that I do not consent to this search."

while what you say is a good firm polite reply it ultimately means nothing when you are unarmed and against power hungry officers

Setting aside the issue with you advocating shooting cops for a minute, you also happen to be factually incorrect. Armed or unarmed, power hungry or not, law enforcement personel are trained in what they can and can't do in regards to search and seizure. They've got a pretty good idea of what will make it to court, what won't, and what will land them in hot water or lose their department a lawsuit.

Your general statement seems to convey the mindset of "whoever has the gun makes the rules and it's pointless to pretend otherwise". That mindset is not true in a land ruled by a constitution based on separation of powers.

Gripe about the sorry state of our nation if you wish, but griping about mostly honest good folk doing a dangerous job so we can sit there and enjoy civilization? Come on.

Here's a question for you kayne - do you actually personally know any law enforcement folks? Related to any? Friends and neighbors with any?

[kayne]

Are you advocating shooting a police officer?

Mods/admins....I take extreme exception to this post and poster.

in the same way i advocate shooting an intruder whom i have made it quite clear you are not welcome on my property. if there is no probable cause and there is no search warrant a cop is not welcome on my property without my invitation(as is anybody that steps foot on my property yes i use judgement i wont just blindly shoot) and i see no foul in my logic of shooting the intruder cop or otherwise.

I honestly do not believe you know what you are talking about. Bad cops are not near the problem that individuals unwilling to drive safely are. In Utah I call most of the drivers here “Utards” because they think they can talk on cell phones, put on makeup, adjust their radio discipline their kids and anything else they want rather than concentrate on their driving.

Statistics indicates that a person will break the law endangering other drivers over 100 times before they are pulled over by a cop. I have been a lot of places and I have stopped many times at accidents to offer assistance (I have had people die in my arms while trying to keep them alive while medical assistance is coming - caused by some nut job driving without regard for life) and in all my experience I have never encountered a bad cop - not a single one. I am not saying bad cops do not exist - just that you are far more likely to encounter drivers willing to deliberately and knowingly drive unsafely - and you are far more likely to know people that allow stupid driving among their friends - perhaps even encouraging it - than you will likely encounter a bad power hungry cop.

The Traveler

utards i must remeber this lol. my point wasnt bad drivers. my point was cops lieing. bad drivers should and ought to be stopped provided they are actually getting caught doing something bad like swerving recklessly or something

Are you actually saying that searching your car illegally is justification for taking another's life?

if you have no right to step onto my property(my car in this instance) and i tell you politely no and yet you persist are you not an intruder? personally my policy is shoot intruders and those that are a threat to my safety and multiple people with guns and handcuffs are most certainly a threat to my safety especially if ive told them no you cant come in and they persistent anyway and even lie to get into my house or car. and the whole matter of probable cause i really dont think speeding is ever probable cause for searching a car and seizing me. crazy swerving and broken headlights in pitch black nighttime perhaps simple speeding? nope.

here let me pose a question. say i stop at a stop sign. a cop however pulls me over moments later claiming i did not stop at the stop sign. cops have a right to lie. cop then makes some excuse im drunk demands to search my car and intimidates me. tell me who is wrong? who is going to be believed? odds are the police will be believed with no proof i ran a stop sign. furthermore he probably just bullied me into searching my car. is this right? i dont think it is. its the same as an intruder invading my person. tell me would shooting this scum bag intruder be morally wrong???? i dont think it would be this is my point. illegal search and seizure by means of lieing and bullying to people that are innocent. heck i take issue with illegal searches even if you are guilty i dont care what you find it better be a legal and just search and the law better not of lied to obtain said search else justice was not and cannot be served if obtained under a lie.

Ugh Vort...wrong timing since mirkwood is attempting to get an answer from kayne whether he is advocating shooting a police officer.

there i hope i explained im not advocating pointless blantant cold blooded murder

Setting aside the issue with you advocating shooting cops for a minute, you also happen to be factually incorrect. Armed or unarmed, power hungry or not, law enforcement personel are trained in what they can and can't do in regards to search and seizure. They've got a pretty good idea of what will make it to court, what won't, and what will land them in hot water or lose their department a lawsuit.

Your general statement seems to convey the mindset of "whoever has the gun makes the rules and it's pointless to pretend otherwise". That mindset is not true in a land ruled by a constitution based on separation of powers.

Gripe about the sorry state of our nation if you wish, but griping about mostly honest good folk doing a dangerous job so we can sit there and enjoy civilization? Come on.

Here's a question for you kayne - do you actually personally know any law enforcement folks? Related to any? Friends and neighbors with any?

let me ask you does it matter what if i do or not? does my statement mean more if i do?

and yes traditionally those with the power make the rules the history of earth attests to this fact. furthermore what will make it to court or not seems to matter little. there are countless cases of cops going crazy with power. there are countless cases of heroism too and for those like that i applaud and salute them.

the simple fact is many things that straight out violate our constitution get passed off into courts and accepted. cops lieing to get searches is one of them.

i think the problem you have is you dont think people are as corrupt as im portraying them. the fact is people are and when given a taste of power generally fall victim to it.

here D and C 121: 39

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the anature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little bauthority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise cunrighteous dominion.

i rest my case. people with a little bit of power seem to almost always according to GOD abuse that power. God agrees why dont you???? cops have a little bit of authority dont ya think???