Why Women Don't Marry

[Over43]

I wasn't quite sure where to put this, but since it did come up this afternoon in conference I thought here might be good.

As presented in this afternoon's session, briefly, more women are having children singlely. "Out of wedlock", or whatever phrase we can use.

This last few months I read "Boys Adrift" by Sax. He discusses this topic (women having children out of wedlock). And though we see it as a moral issue, Sax's reseach shows that many women can't find "a man" who they believe is mature enough to either marry or see rasing their child. So, they dcide to have a child and raise him/her as a single parent.

The onus of this dilemna seems to be men (of which gender I am included) to hang up the video game remote, turn off the p-o-r-n (I thought Larry Crowne had a good example of this), take their 20's, 30's and 40's seriously, and be responsible.

I understand this is a brief and not very eloquent post, and this issue does remain a moral issue for many of us, but there seems to be a deeper seeded problem to it than women "just getting pregnant." For many this is a hard and long thought out process.

[beefche]

I don't think women necessarily plan this. I think they meet a guy, fall in love, have a sexual relationship without protection, and end up pregnant. Then, when the relationship goes bad, the women are now with a child and likely without any support (financial or otherwise) from the fathers.

There might be some women who plan on a child without a father, but I'm thinking the majority of women who have children out of marriage it is more "accidental." "Accidental" being relative since any time you have sex, you should plan on a child (protection or not).

[Just_A_Guy]

Two factors here that may be at play:

1) If fewer unmarried women are having abortions, then (all other things being equal) the proportion of unwed births will naturally increase.

2) If married couples are having fewer children, then (all other things being equal) the proportion of unwed births will naturally increase.

[Traveler]

I don't think women necessarily plan this. I think they meet a guy, fall in love, have a sexual relationship without protection, and end up pregnant. Then, when the relationship goes bad, the women are now with a child and likely without any support (financial or otherwise) from the fathers.

There might be some women who plan on a child without a father, but I'm thinking the majority of women who have children out of marriage it is more "accidental." "Accidental" being relative since any time you have sex, you should plan on a child (protection or not).

Beefche - I think you are partly right and partly wrong. I believe you are correct with the idea that women do not plan to have a child. However, once pregnant it seem to me that women tend to become much more serious as they contemplate that they are caring a child that is their child. As they come to realize that this is their child they also realize that the biological father does not have the same feelings for their child. They realize that the father is not nor has intention to share in the love the child - so they decide to be a single parent - not wanting to give their child away or marry a father that really does not care for the child.

The Traveler

[JudoMinja]

Beefche's post describes my situation perfectly. I let emotions and hormones lead the way and failed to exercise caution in a relationship. I am more to blame than any man for my current situation of having to raise a child as a single parent. While I would love to marry and have the "ideal"- I don't blame the single guys. Whether or not they could really use some maturing, it's a big step to expect them to handle parenting right off the bat. It's about much much more than just expecting the guys to put away their toys.

Sure, my ex shares some of the blame with me, but that doesn't mean it needs to be extended to everyone else out there. And it's not like I divorced over a simple lack of maturity. If that were the only problem I'd had with my ex, I would have just dealt with it. I think the process of raising a family helps men to grow and mature, just as having to take on the responsibility of caring for my son on my own has helped me mature. It's a process that is meant to be taken on as a couple, so the two can help and support one another in that growth and maturing. But when put in a situation where one must parent singly, it can be difficult to find someone willing to so suddenly share your burden instead of gradually being introduced to it through the natural process of marriage and then children.

People don't just become responsible without first being entrusted with something over which they must assume responsibility.

[Bensalem]

I wasn't quite sure where to put this, but since it did come up this afternoon in conference I thought here might be good.

As presented in this afternoon's session, briefly, more women are having children singlely. "Out of wedlock", or whatever phrase we can use.

This last few months I read "Boys Adrift" by Sax. He discusses this topic (women having children out of wedlock). And though we see it as a moral issue, Sax's reseach shows that many women can't find "a man" who they believe is mature enough to either marry or see rasing their child. So, they dcide to have a child and raise him/her as a single parent.

The onus of this dilemna seems to be men (of which gender I am included) to hang up the video game remote, turn off the p-o-r-n (I thought Larry Crowne had a good example of this), take their 20's, 30's and 40's seriously, and be responsible.

I understand this is a brief and not very eloquent post, and this issue does remain a moral issue for many of us, but there seems to be a deeper seeded problem to it than women "just getting pregnant." For many this is a hard and long thought out process.

Women have sex to gain the intimacy they grave; men play intimate to gain the sex they grave. Children are the innocent by-product of this lack of responsibility on both sides.

Men well become more responsible when easy sex is less available.

Women hold the key; just say no!

First comes love, then comes marriage, then comes the baby in the baby carriage.

[beefche]

Women hold the key; just say no!

First comes love, then comes marriage, then comes the baby in the baby carriage.

Ah, yes, make the woman completely responsible for a man's behavior.

[FunkyTown]

Ah, yes, make the woman completely responsible for a man's behavior.

Women have the unenviable position of bearing the child. A completely irresponsible guy has fewer repercussions than a completely irresponsible girl. Fair? No, but biology never was.

Both the guy and the girl have to consider whether they're willing to face the consequences or not. The guy can frankly assess the situation and say "Yes. I am willing to be an irresponsible jerk for sex. I will simply disappear if something happens."

The woman has no such luxury as the mistake will follow.

[beefche]

So, if a woman has the responsibility in the relationship, then, please tell, what responsibility does the man have? I fail to see how a man has no responsibility in a relationship.

[FunkyTown]

So, if a woman has the responsibility in the relationship, then, please tell, what responsibility does the man have? I fail to see how a man has no responsibility in a relationship.

We're not talking about a moral obligation here, Beefche. Morally, the man is just as responsible as the woman.

In practical terms, however, a completely irresponsible guy faces far fewer repercussions for a child being conceived than a woman.

You're preaching to the choir about the morality of it, Beefche, but the sad truth is that a man can forget about a child's conception 3.5 seconds after he hears about it(Or however long it takes to leave his short term memory). The mother must bear it much longer and the child must bear the consequences forever. Since the child has no say, it is in the woman's best interests to bear sole responsibility herself.

Because the man is not bound by biology to the consequences.

[beefche]

Well, then, no wonder we are in a world of trouble. Women are stupid when it comes to men.

[JudoMinja]

Well, then, no wonder we are in a world of trouble. Women are stupid when it comes to men.

I don't think that really has anything to do with it. I'm sure some women are "stupid when it comes to men", but that doesn't relate to Funky's very good point.

A male can easily shirk the responsibility of parenthood without facing any immediate reprecussions. Without a strong moral compass to guide him or laws to bind him, he can essentially escape any and all earthly connections he has to a woman and child should he choose the "easy" path of being irresponsible.

It is much harder for a woman to make the same irresponsible choice. Society has made it a bit easier with birth control, adoption, and abortion options, and some women do take advantage of this so that they can be equally irresponsible. Yet these are all designed methods to allow women the freedom to make the same irresponsible choices that are more biologically natural for men. Once a woman is pregnant, if she is against abortion and/or adoption, she has no choice but to act at least somewhat responsibly in attempting to care for the child.

Another important thing to remember is that if the woman chooses to shirk her responsibility in child-rearing, most likely the man gets a "free ride". If she gets an abortion, then there is no child for him to take responsibility over. I think it is probably very rare for a woman to give birth to a child, decide to act irresponsibly and not care for it, and then have the man step in. Things like this are probably more common when a couple was married, the man already had some time to mature through rearing a family, and then for whatever reason the woman "quit". The other side of the coin is that if a man chooses to shirk his responsibilities, the woman is still stuck, unless she also chooses the "easy" path.

It all boils down to two factors:

1. Be more careful about entering into sexual relationships. The ideal would be to remain chaste until after marriage. Exercise self-control in bridling hormones and passions in order to act responsibly before a child is ever brought into the picture.

2. Once a child is created, whether within marriage or without, both men and women need to step up to the plate and act responsibly in order to care for and raise the child as best they can.

If we all adhered to these two steps as best we could, single parenting situations would be greatly minimized, and those who do find themselves in such circumstances should be able to find plenty of support from family and church.

[kayne]

Well, then, no wonder we are in a world of trouble. Women are stupid when it comes to men.

well rest assured both parties of the human race are just as stupid only in different ways.

We're not talking about a moral obligation here, Beefche. Morally, the man is just as responsible as the woman.

In practical terms, however, a completely irresponsible guy faces far fewer repercussions for a child being conceived than a woman.

You're preaching to the choir about the morality of it, Beefche, but the sad truth is that a man can forget about a child's conception 3.5 seconds after he hears about it(Or however long it takes to leave his short term memory). The mother must bear it much longer and the child must bear the consequences forever. Since the child has no say, it is in the woman's best interests to bear sole responsibility herself.

Because the man is not bound by biology to the consequences.

this person gets it. as cruel and unfair as it is this is the way it works. in fact in the animal kingdom the female is normally the one that controls these things. sex occurs when she is in heat and darn well feels like it. some species of animals the female(particullarly in a breed of dog i used to have) will whip any male into shape in a heartbeat less that male never actually gets to have sex. the reason? HE wants sex far more than she ever does or at least that is what the male thinks and that then ultimately means she has control. guys chase girls it rarely occurs opposite of this.

i'd say this fairly well sums up the problem. women being reckless. guys who by nature tend to express their sex drive a lot easier and faster are a lot more willing to respond to it when boobs are waved in their face and given the dress of a lot of girls its pretty easy to see how guys become horny as anything. mix in drugs and alcohol and single mothers isnt entirely shocking.

in the LDS culture this occurs but in addition to that people in utah and idaho seemingly in droves rush to get married and i question how many of these marriages are good and arent bound to fall apart. many 18 year olds dont know what they want in life much less an eternal partner. and many return missionaries are just trying to get their feet on the ground. while im not advocating waiting till you are 40 but being 20 is also rushing it as many people arent mentally mature yet.

factor in the general chaos known as dating and well are we really shocked there is an increase in single parents???? im really not.

and sure why not while were at it lets blame tv and video games cause well they are clearly the downfall of western civilization. as much as being a guy i cant fathom a woman that needs 50 pairs of shoes though ive come to accept this fact of life. she too needs to fathom sometimes a round of video games is my version of 50 pairs of shoes. yet only one of these gets blamed.

ill give you porn though that is horrible and a serious problem.

i think for many its just downright frightening especially in the LDS culture. the guy is suddenly expected to basically take on someone who will forever freeload financially off of him. bring in more freeloaders(kids). and the ever prevailing myth that upon getting married all of my alone time is now dead which does mean no more games and no more fun time with my friends. somehow this myth probably still exists because girls suddenly expect the married to give up everything.

but perhaps i think the most telling point is mentioned in one of the priesthood talks. men bear the priesthood. ultimatelly that is a lot of pressure. some get the priesthood through lieing. some get it by growing up in the church and just going with the flow. some want to honor it but are trapped in things like porn of which it is a nightmare and a half to overcome(girls seriously understand this is **** to overcome). men bear the priesthood and i suspect this is the reason some of these LDS marriages get strained.

for me personally do i want to get married? yep. but the concept is frightening. im financially not secure what with school and all. the idea of having to now take of someone and any future children(how can you be ready for this????) and the ever looming pressure that if i muck up enough the priesthood is tied to this screw up and ill have a wife and children entirely dependent on this. this is addition to my other flaws i am well aware one of which is my inability to sleep like a normal person which would likely interfere with the whole lie with your wife thing. and now suddenly ill need to be completely 100% financially responsible.

oh yes and my social skills suck making dating ever worse.

so at least from one male thats my perspective of why im single and why marriage is somewhat frightening.

i think the whole point and for some reason i think the male brain grasps this better is marriage is hard freakin work. and since males chase girls ultimately for a guy to be chasing for marriage this means we are telling ourselves we are mentally prepared for this and thats a pretty bold statement to make. yet at the same i could be 40 and not prepared for it ya know?

in the end i think both genders share some blame however i can only fully explain my genders way of thinking as i see it and likely be even close to accurate.

another priesthood talk i think last year said have patience with men in their 20s and stressed that. thats about the best advice i can give. oh and dont date some random jerk and cry to some nice fellow about it after a year. so i might offer that advice dont date that show off jerk and then come crying you are ya know single with a kid en route which is an all too common scenario.

this is a topic that could never end so ill end it here lol

[Vort]

Ah, yes, make the woman completely responsible for a man's behavior.

Finally, someone gets it! And it's about time. Darn women.

[beefche]

But, chastity isn't vogue right now. I think it was last year for about an hour, but then one of those Kardashian chicks flashed herself or something, so chastity took a backseat to salaciousness.

Seriously, look at how chastity is portrayed anywhere you go. It's old fashioned and yes, even irresponsible. Instead people (and especially young adults) are encourage to give in to their animal instincts. Go out on a date and have sex. How can you really know if you are compatible with someone if you don't have sex? And instead of kissing a few frogs, now it's have sex with a few frogs before you finally meet "the one". So, so sad. And way too many of our own youth fall into that Satanic trap.

[JudoMinja]

But, chastity isn't vogue right now. I think it was last year for about an hour, but then one of those Kardashian chicks flashed herself or something, so chastity took a backseat to salaciousness.

Seriously, look at how chastity is portrayed anywhere you go. It's old fashioned and yes, even irresponsible. Instead people (and especially young adults) are encourage to give in to their animal instincts. Go out on a date and have sex. How can you really know if you are compatible with someone if you don't have sex? And instead of kissing a few frogs, now it's have sex with a few frogs before you finally meet "the one". So, so sad. And way too many of our own youth fall into that Satanic trap.

That's the view prevalent in society right now, yes. And when we look at the question of the OP "Why women don't marry", the answer is going to be very different depending on whether you are taking this view or the view of a faithful church member.

Societal reasons why women don't marry in this day and age can range from wanting to pursue a career first, simply having no desire to marry at all, not finding any man mature enough or responsible enough to marry, believing she can raise a child all on her own better than with the help of a husband, wanting the freedom of promiscuity, etc.

I believe though that generally within the church women have a desire to be wed and maintain their standard virtues of chastity and marriage within the temple. So why would a woman who has such a great desire to marry and raise a family within the bounds of matrimony, not wed? I think these reasons center more around not being able to find someone they deem worthy and compatible enough for marriage.

Such women may be stuck seeking "the one" and "true love" or may have sincerely received no offers from a man. I think this applies to both single women that have never had children as well as to single parents. The fault can lie on one end or on both. Either the woman is not putting forth a sincere effort, or the man is not putting forth a sincere effort, or of course the outside factor- their time to marry has just not yet come.

The kicker though is that I believe most men within the church also have a sincere desire for temple marriage. The idea that men just need to grow up, mature, act responsibly and stop playing with their games and toys is rediculous, in my opinion. Sure we could all do with some shaping up and responsible behavior. Sure we could all strive a little harder to not idle away our time and earnestly seek out responsibilities. But that isn't the root of the problem. That isn't why people aren't marrying. I think people in general are either being too picky or simply not being presented with adequate opportunities.

The views of society take a big toll on this. While we hold ourselves to strong values of chastity, that doesn't mean we aren't affected by the plague of promiscuity. Feelings of inadequacy, rediculous expectations, addictions to pornography, and beliefs that our lives are meant to fall in place like a fantasy all stem from this growing problem in the media and society. We are struggling to maintain stalwart and stand strong on the rock amidst the turbulent waters of the world. I think it is only going to get harder, and we are going to have to be very strong as we prepare our children to face this challenge.

[Bensalem]

Ah, yes, make the woman completely responsible for a man's behavior.

Reread my post. I didn't relieve men of all responsibility.

The law of chastity applies to both men and women.

If a pair chooses not to abide by the law, the responsibility of contraception is both the man's and the woman's.

But the responsibility to conceive and give birth to a child is the woman's burden, so too her unique responsibility. It remains the responsibility of the man to make the family whole, preferably by marriage but certainly through financial support.

The OP raises the question of a woman's choice to have a baby out-of-wedlock (because irresponsible men are not marriageable). No child should be conceived under those conditions. To do so would be irresponsible of the woman.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Bensalem

[garryw]

many women can't find "a man"

I would suggest that that the 50% of women who are giving birth out of wedlock have indeed found a man. Mary is the only exception I know of, and those rare few who pay a sperm bank.

If they choose to fornicate with a guy who plays video games all day rather than take on family responsibilities, that is a choice. If they choose to procreate without marriage that is a choice.

I don't think the victim card is applicable.

[Vort]

I would suggest that that the 50% of women who are giving birth out of wedlock have indeed found a man. Mary is the only exception I know of, and those rare few who pay a sperm bank.

If they choose to fornicate with a guy who plays video games all day rather than take on family responsibilities, that is a choice. If they choose to procreate without marriage that is a choice.

I don't think the victim card is applicable.

Hard to argue against this.

[MarginOfError]

A nice piece on the economy of sex

[james12]

I believe Elder Ballard referred to a New York Times article in his address. I may be mistaken but I think it was this one. Also of interest are some of the statistics referred to in the article, found here.

A couple of notes:

- 50% of unintended births occurred with women who were cohabitating.

- More than one-half of all babies born to unmarried couples are not firstborns. Some of these babies represent repeat births to the same unmarried couple.

Edited April 2, 2012 by james12

[kayne]

I believe Elder Ballard referred to a New York Times article in his address. I may be mistaken but I think it was this one. Also of interest are some of the statistics referred to in the article, found here.

A couple of notes:

- 50% of unintended births occurred with women who were cohabitating.

- More than one-half of all babies born to unmarried couples are not firstborns. Some of these babies represent repeat births to the same unmarried couple.

some of that is also welfare abuse. a child out of wedlock to a minority group especially means more welfare. considering in many cases mommy did this same abuse the child is really just doing what she knows. basically getting preganant = government money.

i also laugh at unintended births....i mean are we expecting sex to not lead to procreation??? lol

[Seminarysnoozer]

The kicker though is that I believe most men within the church also have a sincere desire for temple marriage. The idea that men just need to grow up, mature, act responsibly and stop playing with their games and toys is rediculous, in my opinion. Sure we could all do with some shaping up and responsible behavior. Sure we could all strive a little harder to not idle away our time and earnestly seek out responsibilities. But that isn't the root of the problem. That isn't why people aren't marrying. I think people in general are either being too picky or simply not being presented with adequate opportunities.

The views of society take a big toll on this. While we hold ourselves to strong values of chastity, that doesn't mean we aren't affected by the plague of promiscuity. Feelings of inadequacy, rediculous expectations, addictions to pornography, and beliefs that our lives are meant to fall in place like a fantasy all stem from this growing problem in the media and society. We are struggling to maintain stalwart and stand strong on the rock amidst the turbulent waters of the world. I think it is only going to get harder, and we are going to have to be very strong as we prepare our children to face this challenge.

I think one of the "growing problems in the media and society" is the demasculinization of men in general. Many popular TV programs and commercials depict men as bumbling idiots or overgrown children that the woman has to come in and save them from the problem they created. Watch any Simpson's, Everyone loves Raymond or King of Queens and you will see the "man of the house" being treated like an idiot in which the woman of the house has to chastise him and correct his mistakes, constantly. Almost every commercial on TV portrays a man who chooses the wrong brand or doesn't recognize the value of a particular brand until a woman points it out. Look at the Progressive Insurance ads, Flow knows what is right but the other "bad" insurance is represented by two dumb men. This is the kind of image our boys grow up with now.

As a mother of a son and three daughters, I am becoming more aware of this. Luckily, in our home, my husband is the head of the household. (I know that might seem hard for some of you to believe, reading some of my posts) I sometimes slip and say things like "I am the one who is in charge" but try to rectify that image by deferring important decisions to my husband; "lets wait till your father gets home and ask him." I have to swallow my pride sometimes to do that, but I think it is important for my son's development. I want him to take charge and provide for his family but that isn't going to happen if he gets the message that that is not something boys do.

I have a sister who has not given up her matriarchal ways. She lets everyone know in her family that the "woman" is in charge in their house. She has two sons that are struggling with those very things posted in the OP. I think in part it is due to the fact that they have not been given roles of leadership and responsibility throughout their lives.

I think this is why it is important to embrace the things that have made our men, men in the past, such as the Boy Scout program, competitive sports and father-son time. This whole thing perpetuates itself when there is no father around to teach the young male mind about being the head of the household and the mother who constantly reminds everyone that she is "really" in charge. That minimizing the importance of men as a young boy grows up is what turns them into an oversized child when they reach adulthood. Even in advanced education this is continued. My husbands medical school graduating class was 60% women, and this was back in 1995. I am not saying that is bad, just a reflection of where men are being relegated to other jobs and other levels of importance in terms of being the primary provider and the leader of the family.

If a man is not seen as the leader of the family, what is left for him to do? .... to act like a follower, an overgrown child. There are many women who, in essence, say that that is what they want by exerting a desire to be in charge. Can't have it both ways, either the woman is in charge and the man is left with little responsibility and accountability or the man is given responsibility and hopefully through righteous Priesthood action, is in charge without being oppressive.

[MarginOfError]

If a man is not seen as the leader of the family, what is left for him to do? .... to act like a follower, an overgrown child. There are many women who, in essence, say that that is what they want by exerting a desire to be in charge. Can't have it both ways, either the woman is in charge and the man is left with little responsibility and accountability or the man is given responsibility and hopefully through righteous Priesthood action, is in charge without being oppressive.

This is a bit of a false dichotomy.

There was a woman in our ward who (mostly for entertainment) asked several of the sisters the question "Who wears the pants in your family?" When she asked my wife, the response was "uuuhhh...I'm not really sure." My wife came home and asked me the question, to which I shrugged and said, "I'm pretty sure we share the pants."

I've never felt like I needed to put up the appearance that I'm in control, or that I'm the presiding figure. In fact, I take great pride in the fact that every decision in our family is reached in cooperation and agreement. I hope my daughters will learn the same and expect that from their husbands when they marry.

[kayne]

This is a bit of a false dichotomy.

There was a woman in our ward who (mostly for entertainment) asked several of the sisters the question "Who wears the pants in your family?" When she asked my wife, the response was "uuuhhh...I'm not really sure." My wife came home and asked me the question, to which I shrugged and said, "I'm pretty sure we share the pants."

I've never felt like I needed to put up the appearance that I'm in control, or that I'm the presiding figure. In fact, I take great pride in the fact that every decision in our family is reached in cooperation and agreement. I hope my daughters will learn the same and expect that from their husbands when they marry.

while i agree. however a male is in most species of the world regardless is still the leader of the pack. males crave it. we need it. its in our DNA. most males also have a very strong protector trait that is often spread to the entire family or herd. yes im aware women have one too but that largely does not show itsself until the children are harmed or in danger where as the male version makes no distinction of who is harmed or in danger it is simply any one in the family circle.

while i agree a relationship should be on equal terms with each other. the guy often needs to be the head of the house in some aspect or another. but being head of the house isnt the same as what i say goes shut up and listen to me attitude. and in LDS culture priesthood very much takes to the being the one in the head of the house but it also doesnt exercise unrighteous dominion so the guy is never that dominant over powering obey me or else kind of person at least if he is honoring that priesthood correctly. in fact most studies of relationships end up saying the girl prefers this kind of man anyway and most healthy relationships have a guy that shows these traits. this tells me equal rights for most women does not mean complete role reversal but rather the choice and chance to do things like voting and going to school and all that stuff that was previously out of reach for them. heck the amount of girls in utah that just want to get married and are just floating through college waiting for "the one" pretty much proves the LDS culture thinks this way thats for sure.

regardless the history of earth has been controlled by men. equal rights or not i really dont think we as a species has any desire to change this. and the changes we are seeing while it is good in many areas it is leaving a lot of as Seminary pointed out

an oversized child when they reach adulthood

. i certainly see this a lot especially being someone in there 20s.

heck im guilty of it too to some extent. but thankfully my dad and mom shared a healthy relationship and i saw a clear distinction of father and mother roles. so i dont suffer from this syndrome as much as i could.

i agree

If a man is not seen as the leader of the family, what is left for him to do?

by our very genetic make up and design if the male cannot be the head of the house in the manner i described or something similar as i think seminary is also pointing out. then what is left???? our basic desire and needs are failed to be met.

i want to be head of the house. but i want a wife that i will respect her decisions on things. we will work together side by side. however the priesthood should always be at the head of the house and that power resides in the male half of the marriage. and if the priesthood sits at the head of the house God sits at the head of the house and if He sits at the head of the house i assure you the wife will not be abused or mistreated and she will fulfill her role as an equal partner wonderfully.

at least thats my view. it worked for my parents.