Trayvon Martin

[beefche]

And once again, the media gets to play judge and juror.

[LittleWyvern]

And once again, the media gets to play judge and juror.

Exactly, there needs to be some sort of trial. Isn't that how we settle matters of law in this country? To me, the racial part of the story is meaningless. I view it this way: somebody shot and killed someone else and there wasn't even so much as an investigation until the case made national headlines. No trial, no arrest, no anything. To me, that would be suspicious regardless of the race of the shooter or the dead. I'd support whatever result a fair trial handed down, but the fact that there still has been no arrests makes me think that the interpretation of Flordia's stand your ground law needs some work. Specifically, I think the claim that "I had to use deadly force because I felt threatened with death" must be proved in a court of law.

[Just_A_Guy]

The issue is not that it was a race crime. The issue is that the justice system let Trayvon down. They believe he was looked at like another criminal black boy. Although now the recording is out and Zimmerman said, "they always get away with this."

It's not that simple. Zimmerman claimed Martin attacked him. His physical state, including wounds, corroborated that account; as did at least one other witness whom the media has heretofore ignored.

We can mock conspiracy theories all we want, but the facts are:

• Initial press reports referred to Zimmerman as white, and once his true ethnicity became known they continued to describe him as "white-Hispanic".
• The press continues to circulate antiquated photos of Martin as a smiling, scrawny fifteen-year-old and Zimmerman's mug shot from a prior offense, rather than the more modern photos of Martin showing that and Zimmerman were of similar physical build (only about 20 pounds apart). The press continues to infantilize Martin by repeating the otherwise irrelevant datum that Martin was "armed only with candy and a bag of skittles".
• The press initially ignored Martin's background, which showed the kid was well on his way to becoming a junior-mint thug.
• One national news network doctored the 911 tape to make it look like Zimmerman had volunteered the info that Martin was black, when in truth dispatch had specifically asked his race.
• Another national news network doctored surveillance tape of Zimmerman being brought back into custody in order to obscure the visible lacerations on the back of Zimmerman's head.

Conveniently enough, this discussion also moves national dialogue away from the country's anemic economic recovery during an election year.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Just_A_Guy

[LittleWyvern]

[*]The press initially ignored Martin's background, which showed the kid was well on his way to becoming a junior-mint thug.

I think De mortuis nihil nisi bonum may also apply here.

EDIT: What I mean is, I think the Martin bashing and Zimmerman bashing that's been going around everywhere only serves to make the conversation on this topic even less productive than it already is.

Edited April 3, 2012 by LittleWyvern

[Tyler90AZ]

It's not that simple. Zimmerman claimed Martin attacked him. His physical state, including wounds, corroborated that account; as did at least one other witness whom the media has heretofore ignored.

We can mock conspiracy theories all we want, but the facts are:

• Initial press reports referred to Zimmerman as white, and once his true ethnicity became known they continued to respond to him as "white-Hispanic".
• The press continues to circulate antiquated photos of Martin as a smiling, scrawny fifteen-year-old and Zimmerman's mug shot from a prior offense, rather than the more modern photos of Martin showing that and Zimmerman were of similar physical build (only about 20 pounds apart). The press continues to infantilize Martin by repeating the otherwise irrelevant datum that Martin was "armed only with candy and a bag of skittles".
• The press initially ignored Martin's background, which showed the kid was well on his way to becoming a junior-mint thug.
• One national news network doctored the 911 tape to make it look like Zimmerman had volunteered the info that Martin was black, when in truth dispatch had specifically asked his race.
• Another national news network doctored surveillance tape of Zimmerman being brought back into custody in order to obscure the visible lacerations on the back of Zimmerman's head.

Conveniently enough, this discussion also moves national dialogue away from the country's anemic economic recovery during an election year.

Two options:

Do they want news, so they can make money?

or

Is it a giant conspiracy theory to get re-elected?

On top of all that the most bias news is Fox news a Republican station. I go to the website and it is always a constant bash on him. I thought they were fair and balanced.

About Zimmermans injuries, the one analysis I heard is that the injuries don't match what he has reported. There is even tape of him being brought into the police station to prove it.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Tyler90AZ
oops

[MorningStar]

You think it would be neat if the church used a child's death to score points like so many other people are already doing? I don't.

[rameumptom]

I think it is a complicated case that is only made more complicated by mobs trying to impose their will on the system. We need to allow the process to work, watching to make sure that any mistakes or bad practices by police and prosecutor are corrected along the way. But we should not hang the suspect before his trial begins. He is innocent until proven guilty.

As for the Church, it should keep totally out of it. No, it would not be nice if they commented. It is a criminal issue, not a moral issue.

[Guest]

Just understand why they are a little sensitive about the race issue. Don't you understand why?

As far as causing a race divide, I don't really see it. Yes, we should all see each other as part of the human family regardless of skin color. However, they have a stronger community because things that have happened in the past. Don't you understand why?

Of course I understand why. But, the blacks are not the only race that have been discriminated against. Not even if we limit to these here United States. The Native Americans got corralled into reservations, the Chinese got forcibly thrown into working the mines and railroads, the Irish have to change their names and go incognito to get jobs... If we go to a world view, the Filipinos were suppressed by the Spaniards for over 3 centuries, Tibetans got wiped out by the Chinese and Jews have been in exile from the end of the Byzantine period until around World War I and then got almost annihilated in World War II.

But, they were able to put all that behind them in this "Land of the Free" so that the worse thing you get from media hype on Native American racism these days is an outcry against using Redskins as a team name.

Yes, I could not imagine living life having to use a different water fountain than somebody else. Yes, even today you get tons more blacks getting pulled over than non-blacks. Yes, it is a social ill that needs to be cured. No, pitting Martin against Zimmerman is not the way to do it. If you don't see how it is dividing the races - pitting one against the other - I don't know how else to show you. You don't end up with a bounty on Zimmerman's head when you're promoting unity. And I know that these vocal representatives and the media do not represent the voice of the black people. Zimmerman's black friend has come out to say as much. Several black people in my circle of friends have said as much. Unfortunately, it's like the good Muslims - they're not heard. They don't make for splashing headlines that capture people's attention.

Edited April 3, 2012 by anatess

[LittleWyvern]

But we should not hang the suspect before his trial begins. He is innocent until proven guilty.

But that's exactly what makes this case so complicated. There has been no arrest and no trial, and it's still up in the air whether or not there will even be a trial.

[Tyler90AZ]

You think it would be neat if the church used a child's death to score points like so many other people are already doing? I don't.

Very true, can't argue with that!

[NeuroTypical]

Tyler, you are misunderstanding my opinion about why this is news. I'm not advocating conspiracies. A conspiracy requires secrecy and collaboration - I don't believe either is happening.

I'm saying various folks who heavily influence (I used the term 'controlling', but yeah, influencing is a better term) the news cycle made this story big and are keeping it big. They're not conspirators - they're not even all on the same side. But they all figure they can make political hay out of the story and ensuing commentary.

There's nothing unique about this story - shootings happen every day in the USA. There is a possible racial component to some of them. Shooters are not arrested in some of them. Wildly divergent claims based on who you talk to are commonplace. So why, then, is everyone all worked up over this one? Why does the administration issue a statement about this one, but none of the thousands of others that have happened in the past year? Why are both sides of the political aisle picking up this story and beating each other over the head with it? It's an election year, and folks figure they can swing votes their way. No conspiracy necessary.

As we wade through the news and start forming conclusions, we should pay very very close attention to our news sources, their possible biases, and the pre-packaged-ness of some of the conclusions. As people keep saying, we don't know all the facts. Take a good look at yourself in the mirror - are you saying things that people should say when they're not in posession of all the facts?

[Tyler90AZ]

Tyler, you are misunderstanding my opinion about why this is news. I'm not advocating conspiracies. A conspiracy requires secrecy and collaboration - I don't believe either is happening.

I'm saying various folks who heavily influence (I used the term 'controlling', but yeah, influencing is a better term) the news cycle made this story big and are keeping it big. They're not conspirators - they're not even all on the same side. But they all figure they can make political hay out of the story and ensuing commentary.

There's nothing unique about this story - shootings happen every day in the USA. There is a possible racial component to some of them. Shooters are not arrested in some of them. Wildly divergent claims based on who you talk to are commonplace. So why, then, is everyone all worked up over this one? Why does the administration issue a statement about this one, but none of the thousands of others that have happened in the past year? Why are both sides of the political aisle picking up this story and beating each other over the head with it? It's an election year, and folks figure they can swing votes their way. No conspiracy necessary.

As we wade through the news and start forming conclusions, we should pay very very close attention to our news sources, their possible biases, and the pre-packaged-ness of some of the conclusions. As people keep saying, we don't know all the facts. Take a good look at yourself in the mirror - are you saying things that people should say when they're not in posession of all the facts?

If you look at the news the focus is being brought back to the economy.

[beefche]

But that's exactly what makes this case so complicated. There has been no arrest and no trial, and it's still up in the air whether or not there will even be a trial.

You prefer police arrest someone without sufficient evidence? He's claiming self defense and there is some evidence to support that. But, they are continuing to investigate to see if other evidence supports it.

And now, because of the media, I'm sure their job is even harder as witnesses are likely terrified to speak. Because their home address might be tweeted across the nation with the title "reach out and touch him."

[Just_A_Guy]

I think De mortuis nihil nisi bonum may also apply here.

EDIT: What I mean is, I think the Martin bashing and Zimmerman bashing that's been going around everywhere only serves to make the conversation on this topic even less productive than it already is.

Well, let's not forget that there are two separate and distinct issues: a) whether Martin deserved to die, and b) whether Zimmerman's conduct was justifiable.

I don't think anyone here is seriously arguing that Martin's death was OK because he was a bad egg, or whatever. But the issue of whether Zimmerman's conduct was justifiable hinges on what kind of conduct Zimmerman was responding to. Martin's history and propensity towards illegal behavior cannot help but be an issue in that discussion; and it became even more so when his family tried to portray him as a sweet, harmless little kid and started releasing two-year-old photographs of him.

Two options:

Do they want news, so they can make money?

or

Is it a giant conspiracy theory to get re-elected?

On top of all that the most bias news is Fox news a Republican station. I go to the website and it is always a constant bash on him. I thought they were fair and balanced.

About Zimmermans injuries, the one analysis I heard is that the injuries don't match what he has reported. There is even tape of him being brought into the police station to prove it.

I think it's some of both (sensationalism and electoral politics), to be honest. I'm not particularly a fan of Fox News, so I don't feel inclined to defend your attacks against them--I've also noticed that they generally incline towards sensationalism. I put 'em a couple of notches above the Daily Mail - useful to find out what stories are out there that the MSM won't touch; but certainly not unbiased themselves.

The tape of Zimmerman being brought into the police station is the one I referred to earlier as having been doctored. Initially some stations denied it showed anything and even put company logos right over Zimmerman's head while sanctimoniously assuring us that we were now getting "the rest of the story". My understanding is that independent scrutiny of the raw footage tends to corroborate the account of injuries that the local police department had been giving all along.

[LittleWyvern]

You prefer police arrest someone without sufficient evidence? He's claiming self defense and there is some evidence to support that.

I believe there's probable cause to suggest that Zimmerman's actions may not have been in self defense. Evidence goes both ways, and so if this question is ever going to be decided, it should be decided in a trial of law.

Of course, since this all depends on how Florida and the stand your ground law defines "self defense," my opinion may matter less than it already does. If "self defense" according to the stand your ground law means that someone simply has to claim they felt threatened, then there is no arguing against that.

I don't think anyone here is seriously arguing that Martin's death was OK because he was a bad egg, or whatever.

Then we are on a very rare place on the conservative internet.

The tape of Zimmerman being brought into the police station is the one I referred to earlier as having been doctored. Initially some stations denied it showed anything and even put company logos right over Zimmerman's head while sanctimoniously assuring us that we were now getting "the rest of the story". My understanding is that independent scrutiny of the raw footage tends to corroborate the account of injuries that the local police department had been giving all along.

If you're interested, the Sanford police posted the raw video on youtube, which includes more footage than what's on the news.

[Tyler90AZ]

Well, let's not forget that there are two separate and distinct issues: a) whether Martin deserved to die, and b) whether Zimmerman's conduct was justifiable.

I don't think anyone here is seriously arguing that Martin's death was OK because he was a bad egg, or whatever. But the issue of whether Zimmerman's conduct was justifiable hinges on what kind of conduct Zimmerman was responding to. Martin's history and propensity towards illegal behavior cannot help but be an issue in that discussion; and it became even more so when his family tried to portray him as a sweet, harmless little kid and started releasing two-year-old photographs of him.

Why is Trayvon even considered a bad egg? Is it because he smoked weed in high school, flipped off somebody in a picture and wore a hoodie? If your using that as the criteria to call somebody a bad egg or a 'thug,' you are calling about 90% of Americans 'thugs.'

Also Zimmerman has a worse record then Trayvon, from my understanding. Who is the 'thug' Trayvon or Zimmerman? The recording shows that Trayvon was screaming scared, the police told Zimmerman to stop chasing him and Zimmerman said, "they always get away with this."

Do you honestly expect somebody to get shot without fighting back. If somebody was chasing me with a gun I would fight for my life. I am sure his instincts kicked in and he fought.

As far as the family trying to make him look good. What do you expect? I find it a normal occurrence that parents think their children are the best thing since sliced bread.

[Tyler90AZ]

Screaming, clear Trayvon was yelling, how sad

Trayvon Martin 911 Call [sHOCKING SCREAMS] Murder Caught on Tape (by nizzyd !) - YouTube

[mirkwood]

Trayvon Martin case exposes worst in media | The Cutline - Yahoo! News

[BenRaines]

It is easy for people to second guess what happened.

Have you ever been threatened?

Have you ever felt your life threatened? If so what did you do?

Were you bigger than the aggressor? Smaller?

In the dark with face covered could you see how old or color of attacker?

You go to get in your vehicle and that person confronts you.

I have been. I was bigger and older. Person at my house was a young man who was mentally unstable. Wanted to see my daughter. Insisted he wouldn't leave. He was known to carry a knife in his pocket and had threatened his parents in the past. I took him down and held him in a choke hold until police arrived. Each time he tried to struggle I just applied more pressure until he gave up.

Until someone has walked in those shoes it is hard to judge someone else. Sounds like a lot of judgement is being made on hearsay.

Ben Raines

[Just_A_Guy]

Why is Trayvon even considered a bad egg? Is it because he smoked weed in high school, flipped off somebody in a picture and wore a hoodie? If your using that as the criteria to call somebody a bad egg or a 'thug,' you are calling about 90% of Americans 'thugs.'

That, as well as the vandalism; and the fact that he was caught another time with a cache of women's jewelry that was strongly suspected (but never proven) to have been stolen, suggests a general propensity for markedly antisocial behavior.

Also Zimmerman has a worse record then Trayvon, from my understanding. Who is the 'thug' Trayvon or Zimmerman? The recording shows that Trayvon was screaming scared, the police told Zimmerman to stop chasing him and Zimmerman said, "they always get away with this."

As far as I know, Zimmerman's 911 call has no screaming. And your sequence is a little botched. Zimmerman's call transcript (online here, but has some profanity) has the dispatcher asking for Martin's physical description (including race). Subsequently Martin attempts to stare down Zimmerman and begins to approach him, Zimmerman asks for confirmation as to how long until the police arrive, makes the "they always get away" remark, and then a few seconds later reports that Martin is beginning to run away. Zimmerman apparently begins to give chase but is called off by the dispatcher very shortly. He arranges with the dispatcher to meet the police officers back by his truck, and the call terminates.

The screaming comes from a separate 911 call from a neighbor who described a physical altercation in progress. It shows "someone" was screaming. Last I heard, analysis showed a 48% possibility that it was Zimmerman ("conclusive" is considered 60% or more) and the researchers had no recordings of Martin to compare it with.

Zimmerman's story is that he was attacked as he was returning to his truck. Knowing the proximity of the shooting to his truck would probably be helpful here.

Do you honestly expect somebody to get shot without fighting back. If somebody was chasing me with a gun I would fight for my life. I am sure his instincts kicked in and he fought.

That's probably a subjective analysis. It's hard for me to imagine lunging at someone who already had a gun pointed at me, especially if he were out of grabbing distance.

Me, I'd probably go completely still or else (if I thought I had a chance) run like heck.

As far as the family trying to make him look good. What do you expect? I find it a normal occurrence that parents think their children are the best thing since sliced bread.

If they want to make any public statements at all, I certainly don't blame them. But I expect those public statements not to be misleading.

[Just_A_Guy]

I believe there's probable cause to suggest that Zimmerman's actions may not have been in self defense. Evidence goes both ways, and so if this question is ever going to be decided, it should be decided in a trial of law.

"Probable cause" can get you a warrant. It can even get you detained or arrested (as Zimmerman apparently was--hence the cuffs). But to get convicted, you need proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

Prosecutors who try every "probable cause" case that comes across their desk lose an awful lot of cases very quickly, and (since they are elected officials) a dismal conviction rate generally means a prosecutor will shortly be looking for a new job.

[Tyler90AZ]

That, as well as the vandalism; and the fact that he was caught another time with a cache of women's jewelry that was strongly suspected (but never proven) to have been stolen, suggests a general propensity for markedly antisocial behavior.

It is interesting how you bring up something he was suspected of but never charged. At the same time innocent until proven guilty for Zimmerman.

What is the point? Does that make him a murderer or a violent person? Is that good enough reason for him to die?

As far as I know, Zimmerman's 911 call has no screaming. And your sequence is a little botched. Zimmerman's call transcript (online here, but has some profanity) has the dispatcher asking for Martin's physical description (including race). Subsequently Martin attempts to stare down Zimmerman and begins to approach him, Zimmerman asks for confirmation as to how long until the police arrive, makes the "they always get away" remark, and then a few seconds later reports that Martin is beginning to run away. Zimmerman apparently begins to give chase but is called off by the dispatcher very shortly. He arranges with the dispatcher to meet the police officers back by his truck, and the call terminates.

So he came and checked who was following him, then decided to leave. Why would Trayvon not attack Zimmeran then. Why leave and then come back? That leads me to believe Zimmerman chased him down, after the dispatcher told him not to, which lead to his death. Is that enough reason to charge him with murder, if he chased him after he was told not to?

What was Trayvon Martin even being followed for? Is it a good enough reason to follow someone for wearing a hoodie?

The screaming comes from a separate 911 call from a neighbor who described a physical altercation in progress. It shows "someone" was screaming. Last I heard, analysis showed a 48% possibility that it was Zimmerman ("conclusive" is considered 60% or more) and the researchers had no recordings of Martin to compare it with.

That sounded like a black guy to me. What I heard was a professional willing to bet his reputation that it was Trayvon Martin. Also if it was Zimmerman why did it stop right after the shots were fired? Immediately after shots were fired the screaming ended.

Zimmerman's story is that he was attacked as he was returning to his truck. Knowing the proximity of the shooting to his truck would probably be helpful here.

That's probably a subjective analysis. It's hard for me to imagine lunging at someone who already had a gun pointed at me, especially if he were out of grabbing distance.

Me, I'd probably go completely still or else (if I thought I had a chance) run like heck.

If they want to make any public statements at all, I certainly don't blame them. But I expect those public statements not to be misleading.

I don't understand why a parent would not want justice for their child. They made comments in public to get justice. I would be more concerned about a parent who did not attempt to get justice. Do you expect them to say, well my son vandalized so that makes him a murderer? What do people expect?

With the "they always get away" comment, it is clear he is angry they always get away. That would mean he doesn't want them to always get away. There is the motive for him to not let him get away.

Also why would Trayvon want to attack him at the truck. What is the motive? If anything he was being chased with a gun and would want to get away.

[Tyler90AZ]

I know your a lawyer so I am picking your brain. Much cheaper then law school.

[Echo2002]

Unfortunately Zimmerman is not going to get a fair trail. Zimmerman should have left him lone and waited for police, but he made a stupid mistake by following him. The media has had a field day with this story that is not really even a story.

[Just_A_Guy]

It is interesting how you bring up something he was suspected of but never charged. At the same time innocent until proven guilty for Zimmerman.

What is the point? Does that make him a murderer or a violent person? Is that good enough reason for him to die?

Well, remember earlier I said there are two issues at play here--a) whether Martin deserved to die and b) whether Zimmerman's conduct was justified.

The answer to a) is an obvious "no". What we are dealing with now is issue b), and in that case--yes, under criminal law, the prosecutor will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman is lying when he said Martin attacked him. Part of that will involve portraying Martin as an unflappably peaceful and amiable young man, which it seems he was not.

Because we're in b), and we're deciding whether Zimmerman should face criminal prosecution, we assume he's innocent until proven guilty. So, for better or (more likely) for worse, for legal purposes Martin's character is unfortunately going to be presumed questionable unless/until the state can prove that it wasn't.

So he came and checked who was following him, then decided to leave. Why would Trayvon not attack Zimmeran then. Why leave and then come back? That leads me to believe Zimmerman chased him down, after the dispatcher told him not to, which lead to his death.

I've not listened to the recording--only read the transcript--but after being called off Zimmerman seems rather lucid as he makes arrangements to meet the officers back at his truck. Like I said, it seems a lot of this would be cleared up if we could see an area map--where was Zimmerman when he made the call, where was Martin shot, and where was Zimmerman's truck.

Is that enough reason to charge him with murder, if he chased him after he was told not to?

I haven't looked much at this "Stand your ground" business. At some point, sure, continued pursuit will forfeit your self-defense claim.

What was Trayvon Martin even being followed for? Is it a good enough reason to follow someone for wearing a hoodie?

*shrug* Zimmerman gave his reasons to the 911 dispatcher, and we'll have to rest on those for now. As I recall, he claimed Martin was moving slowly from house to house looking intently at each one and appeared to be concealing an item. There had also recently been a rash of thefts in the area.

That sounded like a black guy to me. What I heard was a professional willing to bet his reputation that it was Trayvon Martin.

I believe he bet his reputation that it was not Zimmerman. I don't believe they had samples of Martin's voice to use for their simulation.

Also if it was Zimmerman why did it stop right after the shots were fired? Immediately after shots were fired the screaming ended.

Maybe because the screamer was calling for "help" and at that point, he didn't need help anymore? At this point, we're venturing into the realm of conjecture--which isn't enough for a trial.

I don't understand why a parent would not want justice for their child. They made comments in public to get justice. I would be more concerned about a parent who did not attempt to get justice. Do you expect them to say, well my son vandalized so that makes him a murderer? What do people expect?

Honesty. And a press release containing a picture of the teenaged decedent that was taken less than four years ago.

With the "they always get away" comment, it is clear he is angry they always get away. That would mean he doesn't want them to always get away. There is the motive for him to not let him get away.

Naturally; that seems to be why he gave chase. But the question is whether his motive to catch "them" is going to be stronger than his motive to get back and rendezvous with the police who he knows are coming.

And before reading too much into his statements about "them" and the alleged racial epithets, bear in mind that just three months ago Zimmerman was passing out pamphlets at a black church protesting the beating of a black youth by local police.

Also why would Trayvon want to attack him at the truck. What is the motive? If anything he was being chased with a gun and would want to get away.

Zimmerman's prior phone conversation seems to indicate that Martin saw Zimmerman, stared him down, and began to approach him prior to fleeing - an experience that rattled Zimmerman enough to press the dispatcher about how quickly police would get there. We don't know whether, or when, Zimmerman brandished the gun prior to firing--it's quite possible Martin didn't know Zimmerman was armed until it was too late.

Again, we've crossed the line into conjecture here. All we can do is let the process do its work. Unfortunately, I fear "the process" has been upended by a (ahem) federal executive and an Attorney General who have driven the local police chief off the case, federalized the investigation, and seem determined to make Zimmerman pay the penalty for every racist white who ever set foot on this nation's soil.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Just_A_Guy