Trayvon Martin

[Vort]

It is of my opinion, where George Zimmerman made a fatal mistake is chasing after Trayvon when he was told not to.

In this one thing, I agree with you. Zimmerman apparently followed Martin because he "looked suspicious". Stalking someone who "looks" dangerous is begging for trouble. It was a foolish decision that ultimately cost Martin his life.

There is a great deal of hatred and suspicion within the black community toward white people, and Zimmerman looked white. I can sort of imagine how infuriating it must be to be a young black man and know that pretty much everyone who looks at you, whether white or black, distrusts you (unless they know you). I can imagine how having someone stalking you could be perceived as threatening (or worse) and at least as really, really irritating and offensive. I can understand how if some stranger confronts you while YOU ARE NOT DOING ANYTHING ILLEGAL, you might be very inclined to try to beat some sense into him.

If Martin actually did attack Zimmerman, I don't see how there can be any verdict other than "not guilty". But what I find frustrating (besides the obvious race-baiting being engaged in by scumbags such as Al Sharpton and the New Black Panthers) is that it appears the whole thing was an unnecessary misunderstanding caused because someone with more paranoia than sense took a gun and went all superhero instead of LARPing. Trayvon Martin's worst crime might have been to get so tired of putting up with crap from strangers like Zimmerman that he had had it and decided to teach him a lesson. Regrettable, if true, and certainly illegal, but not something deserving of being shot to death.

I actually find myself having a lot of sympathy for the Trayvon Martin side of the story, at least until idiots like Sharpton open their mouths. I know that if I were hated and mistrusted wherever I went and followed around by armed strangers, I wouldn't feel like I lived in a free country.

[Tyler90AZ]

As normal your are completely butt backwards...

Care to break it down point by point, post by post. I hope that is not your best "argument."

[Tyler90AZ]

In this one thing, I agree with you. Zimmerman apparently followed Martin because he "looked suspicious". Stalking someone who "looks" dangerous is begging for trouble. It was a foolish decision that ultimately cost Martin his life.

There is a great deal of hatred and suspicion within the black community toward white people, and Zimmerman looked white. I can sort of imagine how infuriating it must be to be a young black man and know that pretty much everyone who looks at you, whether white or black, distrusts you (unless they know you). I can imagine how having someone stalking you could be perceived as threatening (or worse) and at least as really, really irritating and offensive. I can understand how if some stranger confronts you while YOU ARE NOT DOING ANYTHING ILLEGAL, you might be very inclined to try to beat some sense into him.

If Martin actually did attack Zimmerman, I don't see how there can be any verdict other than "not guilty". But what I find frustrating (besides the obvious race-baiting being engaged in by scumbags such as Al Sharpton and the New Black Panthers) is that it appears the whole thing was an unnecessary misunderstanding caused because someone with more paranoia than sense took a gun and went all superhero instead of LARPing. Trayvon Martin's worst crime might have been to get so tired of putting up with crap from strangers like Zimmerman that he had had it and decided to teach him a lesson. Regrettable, if true, and certainly illegal, but not something deserving of being shot to death.

I actually find myself having a lot of sympathy for the Trayvon Martin side of the story, at least until idiots like Sharpton open their mouths. I know that if I were hated and mistrusted wherever I went and followed around by armed strangers, I wouldn't feel like I lived in a free country.

I agree 100%

The thing people don't understand is I actually feel bad for George also. Seeing that guy in shackles and knowing he may spend a lot of time in prison does not make me happy. I hate to see anyone's life get so messed up. The guy is not an evil person, wrong place, wrong time, situation.

[Just_A_Guy]

It seems like people have a hard time admitting they were wrong. It is of my opinion, where George Zimmerman made a fatal mistake is chasing after Trayvon when he was told not to.

What evidence is there that Zimmerman persisted in following Martin after he was told to desist?

We don't know who started the fight, but we do know Zimmerman put a bullet through Trayvons chest, leaving him dead. If he would not have chased Trayvon, the kid would not be dead.

Are you forgetting the part of Zimmerman's call transcript where Martin stares Zimmerman down and then starts advancing on him?

Vort's 100% right--if Martin wanted to teach this guy a lesson, his motives are understandable; and it doesn't justify his death. But at the same time--the bottom line would be that Martin came at Zimmerman itching for a fight, which kind of bolsters Zimmerman' self-defense claim.

Zimmerman is a criminal, Trayvon Martin was not.

WOAH! I may be wrong, but my recollection is that in spite of several arrests Zimmerman was only charged once, and that charge resulted in a "diversion agreement"--in other words, the case ended without Zimmerman even pleading guilty.

As for Martin, we already know that he indulged in illegal activity including drug use and possible (probable?) theft. Moreover, since juvenile records are not accessible to the public, there could well be incidents--perhaps resulting in convictions--that we'll never know about. And let's not forget that the kid was moving slowly, from house to house, at night, in the middle of a rainstorm, in a burglary-prone area; and that when he saw himself being followed--after a failed attempt to intimidate his "stalker", who was (presumably quite visibly) in the middle of a cell phone conversation--he bolted.

That being the case, I don't see where we get this "hardened criminal vs innocent young kid" schtick.

In addition, Zimmerman appeared to lie . . .

Cites to the transcript, please?

. . . and got angry easily.

Try being charged with Murder 2 after the local authorities already having reviewed and closed your case once; and see how easily you maintain your equanimity in a court hearing within in an hour or two of your attorney having shown that the guy who swore out the arrest affidavit against you made stuff up. Oh, and for the sake of authenticity in this hypothetical, remember--about 60% of Americans, none of whom were there that night, already believe in your guilt (which has been hinted at by both the President and the Attorney General of the United States), and public officials who refuse to jump on the bandwagon against you (e.g. the local police chief) are being summarily dismissed from office.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Just_A_Guy

[annewandering]

What evidence is there that Zimmerman persisted in following Martin after he was told to desist?

Are you forgetting the part of Zimmerman's call transcript where Martin stares Zimmerman down and then starts advancing on him?

Vort's 100% right--if Martin wanted to teach this guy a lesson, his motives are understandable; and it doesn't justify his death. But at the same time--the bottom line would be that Martin came at Zimmerman itching for a fight, which kind of bolsters Zimmerman' self-defense claim.

WOAH! I may be wrong, but my recollection is that in spite of several arrests Zimmerman was only charged once, and that charge resulted in a "diversion agreement"--in other words, the case ended without Zimmerman even pleading guilty.

As for Martin, we already know that he indulged in illegal activity including drug use and possible (probable?) theft. Moreover, since juvenile records are not accessible to the public, there could well be incidents--perhaps resulting in convictions--that we'll never know about. And let's not forget that the kid was moving slowly, from house to house, at night, in the middle of a rainstorm, in a burglary-prone area; and that when he saw himself being followed--after a failed attempt to intimidate his "stalker", who was (presumably quite visibly) in the middle of a cell phone conversation--he bolted.

That being the case, I don't see where we get this "hardened criminal vs innocent young kid" schtick.

Cites to the transcript, please?

Try being charged with Murder 2 after the local authorities already having reviewed and closed your case once; and see how easily you maintain your equanimity in a court hearing within in an hour or two of your attorney having shown that the guy who swore out the arrest affidavit against you made stuff up. Oh, and for the sake of authenticity in this hypothetical, remember--about 60% of Americans, none of whom were there that night, already believe in your guilt (which has been hinted at by both the President and the Attorney General of the United States), and public officials who refuse to jump on the bandwagon against you (e.g. the local police chief) are being summarily dismissed from office.

So the idea that the kid had committed some crime(s) in the past, which zimmerman was apparently unaware of by the way, makes the kid a criminal committing a crime when zimmerman shot him. Otherwise the kids history has no bearing on the situation. He could have been a mass murderer and zimmerman still would have had no excuse to shoot him based on a history zimmerman had no awareness of.

[SanctitasDeo]

So the idea that the kid had committed some crime(s) in the past, which zimmerman was apparently unaware of by the way, makes the kid a criminal committing a crime when zimmerman shot him. Otherwise the kids history has no bearing on the situation. He could have been a mass murderer and zimmerman still would have had no excuse to shoot him based on a history zimmerman had no awareness of.

I am pretty sure that you are misreading JAG here. I think his intent was to show that the US has adopted a narrative for this incident that goes "evil racist criminal kills sweet young boy".

After more investigation by police and the media, we now know that while Zimmerman has a criminal past, he also has a history of helping people in need. He worked for justice for a black homeless man that a politically-connected individual beat nearly to death outside of a bar.

We also know that Martin has had problems in the past with marijuana, etc.

So neither of them fit the exact stereotype that Americans and the media placed on them at the beginning of this whole thing.

Obviously, Zimmerman was not justified in shooting Martin for past crimes, but that is not what he did, and no one is saying that at all!.

[annewandering]

I do hear it in the media. Of course I do try to be fair and read some crackpot media as well as intelligent. :) The idea is to make sure we know that Martin is NOT a sweet innocent little boy but is a boy with a checkered past. That makes us, the public, easier to con into thinking Zimmerman wasnt so far off base shooting Martin.

Of course it is all horse pucky.

[Just_A_Guy]

Precisely what Sanctitas Deo said. As a matter of law, Martin's former legal troubles have no bearing--nor, in point of fact, do Zimmerman's.

However, it looks like a lot of this is going to revolve around a) whether Zimmerman was justified in following Martin in the first place, and b) whether the state can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Martin did not begin the physical scuffle between the two. And so, to quote my earlier post, the following will be relevant:

And let's not forget that the kid was moving slowly, from house to house, at night, in the middle of a rainstorm, in a burglary-prone area; and that when he saw himself being followed--after a failed attempt to intimidate his "stalker", who was (presumably quite visibly) in the middle of a cell phone conversation--he bolted.

Moreover, if Martin can be shown to have had a propensity for violence (not crime, but violence)--if he had a record of being hot-headed, got into lots of fights, etc. - that will be a factor in the trial.

[Tyler90AZ]

Precisely what Sanctitas Deo said. As a matter of law, Martin's former legal troubles have no bearing--nor, in point of fact, do Zimmerman's.

However, it looks like a lot of this is going to revolve around a) whether Zimmerman was justified in following Martin in the first place, and b) whether the state can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Martin did not begin the physical scuffle between the two. And so, to quote my earlier post, the following will be relevant:

Moreover, if Martin can be shown to have had a propensity for violence (not crime, but violence)--if he had a record of being hot-headed, got into lots of fights, etc. - that will be a factor in the trial.

JAG I think your forgetting the part that the charges against George were possible felonies. One of those charges was even assaulting a police officer.

The thing that matters most is that George persisted in following Martin after he was told not to. If I heard correctly they were actually pretty close to Martins home. In addition, there is proof that Martin just bought an Ice tea and skittles. That leads me to believe that he was not going to commit a criminal act. Where do you get he was wondering around houses slowly? George profiled him in the sense that he said they always get away with this(not necessarily race, could be though). That gives him the intent to keep on following. Another huge thing is that the guy seems to keep lying. Were also forgetting Martins girlfriend who was on the phone with him, that will be huge.

Question for you:

Is it going to be easier for George to get off Murder two then it would have been for manslaughter?

[Just_A_Guy]

JAG I think your forgetting the part that the charges against George were possible felonies. One of those charges was even assaulting a police officer.

Yes, but generally speaking that's not admissible for legal purposes (there are exceptions, though). See Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 404 (most state rules of criminal procedure follow the federal rules; but Florida may not--I'm not sure).

The thing that matters most is that George persisted in following Martin after he was told not to.

I don't recall the state producing any evidence that this in fact happened.

If I heard correctly they were actually pretty close to Martins home.

Haven't heard this; but I trust it will be resolved at trial.

In addition, there is proof that Martin just bought an Ice tea and skittles. That leads me to believe that he was not going to commit a criminal act. Where do you get he was wondering around houses slowly?

From Zimmerman's own 911 call transcript.

George profiled him in the sense that he said they always get away with this(not necessarily race, could be though). That gives him the intent to keep on following.

But a) motive for conduct does not show that he actually engaged in said conduct, and b) IIRC, that statement came before he was told to desist following.

Another huge thing is that the guy seems to keep lying.

I've not seen any specific statements of his that were demonstrably incorrect or contradictory to other statements. Can you clarify?

Were also forgetting Martins girlfriend who was on the phone with him, that will be huge.

It's hearsay--will probably be admissible nonetheless because it's a "present sense impression"; but it's still problematic for at least three reasons: 1) she wasn't there and only knew what Martin was telling her; 2) Martin's own family has been caught presenting the public with a deliberately misleading portrait of his character in order to whip up public sentiment against Zimmerman and it's very possible the girlfriend will do likewise; and 3) the timeline on Martin's call to his girlfriend will need to be reconciled with the timeline on Zimmerman's call--depending on whether/how they overlap, what the girlfriend heard may not even be directly relevant to the questions of whether Zimmerman in fact desisted from following after he was instructed to do so or whether he or Martin threw the first punch.

Question for you:

Is it going to be easier for George to get off Murder two then it would have been for manslaughter?

I think so, yes. The thing is--and I don't know how Florida works--but in Utah the prosecutor could try to throw manslaughter in anyways as a "lesser included" offense. I don't know how Florida compares the elements of Murder 2 versus Manslaughter, but it's possible that the state will ask the jury to consider the latter as a lesser included of the former. Zimmerman may yet go down on manslaughter.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Just_A_Guy

[prisonchaplain]

I do hear it in the media. Of course I do try to be fair and read some crackpot media as well as intelligent. :) The idea is to make sure we know that Martin is NOT a sweet innocent little boy but is a boy with a checkered past. That makes us, the public, easier to con into thinking Zimmerman wasnt so far off base shooting Martin.

Of course it is all horse pucky.

If Martin did have a checkered past, then it is more believable that he may have initiated the violence, by attacking Zimmerman. None of us knows for sure, but that is what this mention of his past is meant to suggest.

[Vort]

Does anyone seriously believe that this is not exactly what Sharpton and his fellow scumbags had in mind when breathing out their threats?

Alton Hayes III | Suspect: I Beat Up White Man Because I Am Mad About Trayvon Martin Case

[RipplecutBuddha]

"19 year-old man victim"

Gotta love the more gooder english journalistic persons is using todays....

[bytor2112]

Now, just imagine if the victim had produced a handgun and sent Hayes and his 15 year old buddy to the spirit world. There would be riots in Chicago....

[SanctitasDeo]

Originally Posted by annewandering

I do hear it in the media. Of course I do try to be fair and read some crackpot media as well as intelligent. The idea is to make sure we know that Martin is NOT a sweet innocent little boy but is a boy with a checkered past. That makes us, the public, easier to con into thinking Zimmerman wasnt so far off base shooting Martin.

Of course it is all horse pucky.

And before the stories about Martin's checkered past came out, all we heard about was Zimmerman's checkered past. Is it so bad that I want to hear the truth about both of them? Both sides are trying to con the public into believing a better story than the truth.

Moreover, if Martin can be shown to have had a propensity for violence (not crime, but violence)--if he had a record of being hot-headed, got into lots of fights, etc. - that will be a factor in the trial.

This is definitely true.

[Tyler90AZ]

That guy is an idiot for sure.

That may have been intention of new black panthers or Sharpton, but not majority of people or blacks protesting for Trayvon.

[bytor2112]

Protesting for Trayvon....that is the problem. What happens if a jury acquits Zimmerman....more protesting? Rioting, looting... and stealing TV's is my prediction.

[Tyler90AZ]

I have seen the same statements made by Zimmerman supporters... Will there be riots, looting or anything of that manner? As far as those supporting Travyon, starting with the parents, they just want a fair trial. Which they are getting right now and are satisfied. You know they are not happy about the bond situation, but they aren't calling for rioting. That should give you an example of what they would do.

[mirkwood]

That should give you an example of what they would do.

The parents maybe, but not a lot of the other so called supporters.

My prediction is acquital, followed by rioting.

[SanctitasDeo]

I have seen the same statements made by Zimmerman supporters

Part of the problem, it seems to me, is that there are supporters. We have already decided what happened.

[MorningStar]

The parents maybe, but not a lot of the other so called supporters.

My prediction is acquital, followed by rioting.

My prediction is a conviction of manslaughter followed by rioting.

[Just_A_Guy]

This could get particularly nasty in the upcoming election season. Florida is a swing state, and somewhere some Republican strategist is probably running the numbers as to what would happen if Republicans used the Trayvon Martin situation to turn blacks and latinos against each other and alienate one or both of those core Democratic blocs against the party-at-large.

[annewandering]

it is very odd to think that a murderer and a victim have supporters. its so much like a super bowl game.

[Blackmarch]

What a tragedy... The 9/11 call is showing that Zimmerman is racist. I wonder if this is all said and done if The Church will comment on the incident. If it is proved that Trayvon Martin was killed in cold blood. Imagine how that would help the image of the church to the African-American community. I doubt it will happen, but it would be nice.

What does everyone think about the incident?

If trayvon was still alive, theyd both should be convicted.

[SanctitasDeo]

it is very odd to think that a murderer and a victim have supporters. its so much like a super bowl game.

Ha, yes, exactly this. We already do it to politics, where people support politicians, sometimes for the same reason they support sports teams. And here we do it in criminals trials, too.