Clarification on the wording of "only begotten son"


Bini
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I don't think we know all the ins and outs of how spirits combine with our bodies - but if our heart is beating, if our lungs are breathing, blood flowing - if a person is alive, there has to be some form of connection between flesh and spirit - which gives that spirit experience.

Really?

The "experience"we are talking about is the the experience that has eternal consequences. I am not talking about experiencing the taste of a homemade tamale, etc. We are talking about the experience gained by making conscious decisions involving our agency. Agency requires consciousness. A body that cannot ever produce consciousness has not experienced that kind of experience.

Elder Stapley said: "As sons and daughters of our Heavenly Father, we have this gift of free agency to use in our mortal lives. We must be tried, tested, and proved to see if we will choose the right and do all things whatsoever the Lord our God shall command us. As spirit children of God, we have built-in powers of conscience sufficient to develop our free agency in right choices and to acquire qualities of goodness, humility, and integrity of purpose."

And Wilford Woodruff said; "“By virtue of this agency you and I and all mankind are made responsible beings, responsible for the course we pursue, the lives we live, the deeds we do in the body.” (Wilford Woodruff, Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, Bookcraft, Inc., 1969, pp. 8–9.)"

The test and the experience we are talking about is one that is performed by the body and in the body... it doesn't matter if we know how they connect or not. If there is no action of the body then there are no deeds done "in the body". It is impossible for an anencephalic baby to do any deed in the body. ... and yet they make it into the Celestial Kingdom without ever experiencing mortality, I guess still "ignorant" in your book.

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Informed Consent is a legal term. It is a concept invented by lawyers not medical doctors. Im sure that we were all informed about our risks, benefits and options of the decision to embark upon the plan of salvation.

Anacephalic births that survive on life support must at least have a brain stem. They may not have a forebrain but they are getting some feedback. There has also been some commentary by past general authorities that such children may be able to be experience more of a mortal existence during the mellinnium.

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Im sure that we were all informed about our risks, benefits and options of the decision to embark upon the plan of salvation.

Anacephalic births that survive on life support must at least have a brain stem. They may not have a forebrain but they are getting some feedback. There has also been some commentary by past general authorities that such children may be able to be experience more of a mortal existence during the mellinnium.

Exactly! Then, we did not "consent" to this life in ignorance as changed was saying.

I don't understand your comment about "getting some feedback" as far as this conversation goes. What does that have to do with the ability humans have to reason and make agency related choices?

Most living organisms have "feedback", that alone certainly doesn't equate to "experience" in the sense of the word that is used to make us more like God.

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I did not say in ignorance, just not with complete knowledge - with partial knowledge, so our choice - our agency - was only partial... just seems to me it would be impossible to make an informed choice on something you have no experience with... jmo

"There has also been some commentary by past general authorities that such children may be able to be experience more of a mortal existence during the millennium. " - yes, I think one way or another, we will all gain the experience we need to make an informed choice.

The "experience" we are talking about is the one that comes from having to make decisions behind a veil in which there is a potential for being accountable for wrong choices that would eternally distance a person from living with our Heavenly Father.

If you think that a child under the age of 8 who we are told will go to the Celestial Kingdom will somehow come back and be re-tested with an experience of such accountability, I simply don't understand that idea. I have never heard of such a plan. I have been under the impression that the final judgement is the "final" judgement.

If they come back with some other role, other than a mortal one in which they are being tested and being held accountable for their potentially damming choices, then that is a different "experience"from the one we are talking about. Again, we are not talking about the experience of feeling rain fall on your face or having good Mexican food etc, or for that matter allowing a parent to have the experience of raising a child. We are talking about the refining process of having to choose between right and wrong in a setting behind the veil in which there is a potential for becoming accountable for bad decisions, the "experience" of being accountable to God while in a corrupted body and exposed to the enticing of Satan.

If anything, the Millennium supports the concept I have been saying, that a person can be saved into the Celestial Kingdom without experiencing the influences of Satan or sin. D&C 101:28 " And in that day Satan shall not have power to tempt any man." and D&C 45:58 "And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation." This is not the same "experience" we have been talking about. This is like comparing the 15 year old driving the car in the back lot versus out on the street. Its not the same.

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I think we can consent to coming here without having the experience prior, there is no need for full understanding at that point. Just like someone consenting to a surgery they have never had before, it doesn't require past experience. And I wouldn't say that person goes into the surgery in ignorance.

I like the surgery analogy. Life and death in the balance. Will we survive the experience or die from it?

Our decision to come to earth was fully informed but not yet experienced.

Our faith in the promises God made in premortality was rooted in our true knowledge of God.

We fully understood His grace, mercy, and justice. We also knew ourselves as the spirit we wished to be. I suppose Lucifer and his 1/3 in the spirit world also knew themselves and understood their spirits. They knew that they would fail if given agency on earth.

We come into this world ignorant of our past and blind to our future. Our spirits are innocent with only the light of Christ to know right from wrong. We all must be reeducated into a knowledge of God, which is imperfect in man, and so He gives us His Spirit to guide us.

In so many ways this life seems unfair, but it remains the only path into Godliness. The suffering here is all man's fault. Free agency is required in order to winnow out the evil spirits in the remaining two thirds. The story of Cain and Able, told so early in man's history, informs each of us today as to the paths we are freely offered.

A true knowledge of God and of the promises He made is attainable in this life. The Holy Ghost and the LDS scriptures testify of them. As in premortality, we must act upon our faith. We can become fully informed of the afterlife and of the resurrection, yet not experience it until we leave mortality to enter a new life with God.

The two transitions (premortality-to-earth and mortality-to-afterlife) are compatible to a birth into a new realm. For those who remain in sin it will be a painful labor; for those who have repented in Christ it will be a painless birth, like coming out of the waters of baptism, and far more glorious.

We leave this world with full knowledge of our past and a clear vision of our future, be them good or evil.

Edited by Bensalem
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We fully understood His grace, mercy, and justice. We also knew ourselves as the spirit we wished to be. I suppose Lucifer and his 1/3 in the spirit world also knew themselves and understood their spirits. They knew that they would fail if given agency on earth.

Yes! thank you! I was beginning to think I was alone in my views, thanks for your summary.

I like to look at the above statement a little different but knowing that there is no way to really know how they felt ... I think they actually believe they could have succeeded but did not want to pay the price of success. I liken it to a young adult ready to leave her parents home. The young adult says, "I can do this on my own". While the parents say "I think you need a little more preparation, why don't you go to college?" The rebellious child says "no, I can do this without that training". The parent would say "you are mature enough to make decisions on your own, I can't force you to go to college but then my support for you is over". Then there is wailing and gnashing of teeth to hear that there is no more support. ... They opted out of the program because of their own self centered proud views of themselves, just like it is here. I doubt they opted out because of timid fear and humility - 'I can't do it'. I would imagine it was the opposite - 'I can do it all without anyone's help, then I will take all the glory for myself'.

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Yes! thank you! I was beginning to think I was alone in my views, thanks for your summary.

I like to look at the above statement a little different but knowing that there is no way to really know how they felt ... I think they actually believe they could have succeeded but did not want to pay the price of success. I liken it to a young adult ready to leave her parents home. The young adult says, "I can do this on my own". While the parents say "I think you need a little more preparation, why don't you go to college?" The rebellious child says "no, I can do this without that training". The parent would say "you are mature enough to make decisions on your own, I can't force you to go to college but then my support for you is over". Then there is wailing and gnashing of teeth to hear that there is no more support. ... They opted out of the program because of their own self centered proud views of themselves, just like it is here. I doubt they opted out because of timid fear and humility - 'I can't do it'. I would imagine it was the opposite - 'I can do it all without anyone's help, then I will take all the glory for myself'.

You present an interesting perspective. Maybe the "price of success" that turned away many spirits from the commitment of entering mortality was the fact that we all have to face a physical death, as well as, placing us at risk of a spiritual death.

As for myself, in my youthful journey away from God and the religion of the Catholic church, I did feel I could go it alone and face the consequences of my sins. I thought I was ready, willing, and able to pay the price at judgment time.

I realized I could do nothing about the fact of my physical death, but I felt that whatever the punishment was, if I could bear it in the end, and I would be allowed to enter heaven.

Without a full understanding of spiritual death as taught by the LDS Church, I sinned freely and justified my actions in human terms. I either wasn’t breaking society’s laws or if I did, I convinced myself that corporate greed justified it and that corporations could afford a small loss caused by me. It was the pride of believing, “I deserve it”.

At the time I understood I had the right to choose wrong, but I did not have all the training that would inform an educated decision. I had to be taught by my Lord, when during my conversion I felt the agony of just one disobedience. It was too painful to bear and when He showed me my lifetime of more grievous sin, I understood it would be impossible to rectify them by my own means. In repentance from the vision of all my sins, in a bright recollection of my offenses, He cleansed me in a baptism of fire (free of pain and without anguish). With the eyes of our Lord upon us, true humility is possible.

The Atonement by Christ is real and available and necessary to save our souls.

Edited by Bensalem
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"... τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ..." (John 3:16 BGT)

"...the son the one-of-a-kind..."

"58.52 monogenh,j, e,j: pertaining to what is unique in the sense of being the only one of the same kind or class - 'unique, only.' ..." -Low & Nida

"18705 monogenh,j, e,j of what is the only one of its kind of class unique; (1) an only child born to human parents one and only ( LU 7.12; 8.42); substantivally only child (LU 9.38); (2) as a child born in a unique way; (a) used of God's Son Jesus only, only begotten; substantivally (JN 1.14); (b) used of Abraham's son Isaac only; substantivally o` m. his only true son." -Friberg

"μονο" means "only," "one," and "γενῆ" means "kind." There is no one or thing like Jesus. The phrase "only begotten" is misleading nowadays because we think it implies "having kids." I was used more generally to describe uniqueness.

The Christians at Nicea who spoke Greek used the word properly when they said Jesus is "eternally begotten of the Father ... begotten, not made." They certainly did not mean that Jesus was "procreated" by the Father when they were refuting a man who taught that there was time when Jesus was not. Instead Jesus is the eternal unique one who is of or from the Father.

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  • 4 weeks later...

This term means only begotten of mortal flesh. All the spirit children of Heavenly Father were begotten by immortal beings, Heavenly Father and one of His wives. The first parents of all the worlds were also begotten by Heavenly Father and one of His wives, but, as Brigham Young explained, they ate of the fruit of the terrestrial world so instead of having a spirit child, they provided physical tabernacles for the spirits of the first parents of the various worlds. However, Christ was begotten by Heavenly Father and a mortal woman, whom He sealed to Himself, through this same process, as also explained by Brigham Young and James Talmadge (see "Mormon Doctrine" under "Son of God"). Thus, the expression "Only Begotten in the {mortal} Flesh."

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"... τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ..." (John 3:16 BGT)

"...the son the one-of-a-kind..."

"58.52 monogenh,j, e,j: pertaining to what is unique in the sense of being the only one of the same kind or class - 'unique, only.' ..." -Low & Nida

"18705 monogenh,j, e,j of what is the only one of its kind of class unique; (1) an only child born to human parents one and only ( LU 7.12; 8.42); substantivally only child (LU 9.38); (2) as a child born in a unique way; (a) used of God's Son Jesus only, only begotten; substantivally (JN 1.14); (b) used of Abraham's son Isaac only; substantivally o` m. his only true son." -Friberg

"μονο" means "only," "one," and "γενῆ" means "kind." There is no one or thing like Jesus. The phrase "only begotten" is misleading nowadays because we think it implies "having kids." I was used more generally to describe uniqueness.

The Christians at Nicea who spoke Greek used the word properly when they said Jesus is "eternally begotten of the Father ... begotten, not made." They certainly did not mean that Jesus was "procreated" by the Father when they were refuting a man who taught that there was time when Jesus was not. Instead Jesus is the eternal unique one who is of or from the Father.

interesting post. good food for thought.

as for the other topic in here. you people over think this. the point of earth is to come here. to come here we get a body and have a veil placed over us. that is really it. we then die and can get resurrected. thats the point. and hopefully to get exhaltation. a kid with that weird no brain disorder still gets a body. granted a horrible malfunctioning body but a body none the less. why? who knows. but that kid got a body and thats all that kid needs to get resurrected.

kids dieing before 8 get the celestial kingdom. however they do not get exhalted. they still need to earn that. this means some will still fail to get that despite getting one heck of a free ride to it. however ive often thought they got a free ride. then i realize no they dont. throughout all the eternities earth this time we are here living mortally is the most unique time of all the eternities. never to be replicated again. this kids miss that. so i think they are missing out.

bottom line we came to earth for a body and nothing else the put it bluntly no matter how deformed that body is. the spirit doesnt really care. the spirit wants that body. that spirit is happy to be attached to it. the spirit prefers to be attached to a body caring little for how deformed it is knowing it will be perfected later on it just wants a body. all spirits want this. sort of why Satan tries to possess bodies its the best he can do. heck this is why Jesus was born He certainly had no need to be born if you think about it He was God basically. He had the power. but He needed a body too.

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kids dieing before 8 get the celestial kingdom. however they do not get exhalted. they still need to earn that. this means some will still fail to get that despite getting one heck of a free ride to it. however ive often thought they got a free ride. then i realize no they dont. throughout all the eternities earth this time we are here living mortally is the most unique time of all the eternities. never to be replicated again. this kids miss that. so i think they are missing out.

Why is it not possible that they already proved they earned it in the pre-mortal world? Of course, they don't get a "free ride", as you put it, but that can be satisfied by their pre-mortal performance alone.

D&C 137 9-10; " 8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven."

Mosiah 15:25 " 25 And little children also have eternal life."

And also Moroni chapter 8.

I think your idea that the only reason to come here is to get a body is wrong. For many, it is a chance to show that we will do the things God asks us to, and not just say we would. It is a chance to show the desires of our heart and not just in word but by our actions.

As Elder Russell Ballard says, "I am grateful for this unusual experience because I now understand more clearly than ever before that the most important asset one can have in this life is the personal, inner peace and positive assurance that come in knowing that the purpose of this life is for men to learn how to prepare for eternal living in the presence of our Heavenly Father and his Son, Jesus Christ. "

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concerning children:

Joseph Smith to a woman who lost her child: “You will have the joy, the pleasure, and satisfaction of nurturing this child, after its resurrection...” (Gospel Doctrine, 455-56)

Joseph F. Smith: "The body will come forth as it is laid to rest, for there is no growth nor development in the grave. As it is laid down, so will it arise, and…after the resurrection will develop to the full stature of man" (Improvement Era 7 [June 1904]:623-24).

Joseph Smith: “As concerning the resurrection, I will merely say that all men will come from the grave as they lie down, whether old or young, there will not be ‘added unto their stature one cubit, neither taken from it…Children will be enthroned in the presence of God and the Lamb with bodies of the same stature that they had on earth…”. (Scriptural Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 227)

D&C 45:58 “Children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.”

sounds like children will gain the experience they need during the millennium.

If they grow up without sin, what experience are you talking about?

The "joy, the pleasure and satisfaction..." sounds to be for the parents, it doesn't sound like the child "needs" anything more.

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