"Not a bad person"

[Vort]

Bobby Petrino passenger Jessica Dorrell 'in safe mode,' friend says - ESPN

Bobby Petrino is the head football coach at Arkansas, a man with vast power within his fiefdom and who gets paid an enormous sum of money ($3,680,000 per year). A husband and father, he recently had a motorcycle accident while carrying as a passenger his 25-year-old girlfriend, herself affianced to a young man for an intended June wedding.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for Petrino. Whatever happens to him will be no more than he deserves, and probably far less. I do have some small amount of sympathy for his mistress, who (we may assume) is less mature and more prone to the foolishness of youth. What I do not understand is this quote from one of her friends, quoted the article linked above, and seemingly ubiquitous in such situations:

"She's not a bad person."

Just wondering: What does one have to do in order to be considered "a bad person"? I understand that the larger world does not consider fornication even to be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that sleeping with a married man (married to someone besides yourself) is still considered A Bad Thing by the majority of the population. And she herself was "in a relationship", engaged to a man with whom I assume she was sharing intimacy.

So what exactly do her friends mean? Do they mean we should not condemn her? I guess I agree with that, but is the implication that we are free to condemn someone who IS "a bad person"? And again, what exactly do you have to do to be considered "bad"? Kill and eat children? Blow up an airplane? Is anything short of murder enough to be considered "a bad person"? How about Proposition 8 supporters -- are they "bad people"? If I merely embezzle a couple million dollars, do I still qualify as "not a bad person"?

I mean, come on. Sleeping with a married man, when you yourself have promised yourself to someone else -- that's pretty scummy in almost any corner of America.

[beefche]

Apparently, you can't praise Fidel Castro without being a "bad person." Unless you are Sean Penn or Michael Moore....

[rameumptom]

As a hearing officer inside a state prison, I hear that term frequently. "I'm not a bad person."

I always respond, "compared to whom?" If compared to Hitler, then yes, they probably are not a bad person. If compared to Mother Teresa, then they do not look so angelic....

[Traveler]

I do not think there are any bad persons. But I do believe that from time to time good people do bad and stupid things.

I tend to like people that see the good and smart in me over the bad and stupid. In general I do not get along well with those that see the bad and stupid over the good and smart in me - I assume most everybody, to some degree, is like me.

The Traveler

[Guest]

She's a bad person.

Usually, when you say, "She's not a bad person", they mean, she didn't intend to be bad, circumstances just happened to make her choose the wrong path. It's like Darth Vader... okay, you can probably argue that "he is not a bad person".

But, fornicating with a married man while engaged to the other... hah, there's no going around in intent on that one.

[rameumptom]

If not a "bad" person, Traveler, would you agree that she's an "evil" person?

Would you say that Hitler was not a bad person? How about Cain? Was Hitler a good person who just did some stupid things? Was Cain just having a stupid moment when he ignored God's warning, loved Satan and slew Abel?

Yes, sometimes good people do stupid things. I work in a prison, and have many of those types in here. But there are many who are truly evil/bad as well.

Can we not agree that there is bad/evil in the world, and it is caused by those who choose bad/evil things?

Sleeping around with a married man is not a stupid act. A one nighter might be a stupid thing done by a generally good person. But having a relationship with a married man is not. It is a choice that stares a person straight in the face, forcing the person to decide whether they will be chaste (or at least not sleeping with a married man), or following their animal lusts. I have no doubt this girl was charmed by money more than by charm. That was her choice. And it is an evil one to make.

[slamjet]

My experience has taught me thus: There are bad people who have the potential to become good people.

We try to help our children identify those people to stay away from. As a church, we teach our youth to be careful of the company they keep. Are these people good? I think not. The scriptures gives us a tiny leeway to judge people with "by their fruits ye shall know them." I believe this to be wisdom.

I was a bad person, but I had a change of heart so I now consider myself to be a good person. The difference? I believe it is the commitment and direction one strives to change and better themselves. The change being striving to jettison self-centered pride in favor of true humility.

[annewandering]

Two people are born in the same dysfunctional abusive family. They grow up seeing and receiving similar abuse. One person likes it. The other tries to be better than what he is around. Is one evil and one good? I think so.

We are who we are before our birth. Yes we chose to come here. Some, I believe, had not so pure of reasons for that choice. Some were more committed to doing the very best they were able. Some were there for the ride and maybe they didnt really like how bossy satan was.

Some are EVIL and some are GOOD even before birth. I am not sure the ones who are evil can or even have any desire to be better. They simply like what they do.

On the other hand I do not equate bad behavior with evil. Evil is in the heart. Bad behaviour is a symptom of something, not necessarily evil heart.

Edited April 10, 2012 by annewandering

[Traveler]

If not a "bad" person, Traveler, would you agree that she's an "evil" person?

Would you say that Hitler was not a bad person? How about Cain? Was Hitler a good person who just did some stupid things? Was Cain just having a stupid moment when he ignored God's warning, loved Satan and slew Abel?

Yes, sometimes good people do stupid things. I work in a prison, and have many of those types in here. But there are many who are truly evil/bad as well.

Can we not agree that there is bad/evil in the world, and it is caused by those who choose bad/evil things?

Sleeping around with a married man is not a stupid act. A one nighter might be a stupid thing done by a generally good person. But having a relationship with a married man is not. It is a choice that stares a person straight in the face, forcing the person to decide whether they will be chaste (or at least not sleeping with a married man), or following their animal lusts. I have no doubt this girl was charmed by money more than by charm. That was her choice. And it is an evil one to make.

I have learned by sad experience not to cast stones. If anyone thinks good people never do bad things - they cannot count themselves as good. As to Hitler and others - should they end up in the Celestial Kingdom I do not intend to go somewhere else to be rid of bad people - in fact I think that was one of the flaws of Satan. And while we are speaking of Satan - one of his names is "Accuser". One of the names of Jesus that we are commanded to take upon ourselves as Christians - is "Advocate".

The Traveler

[Traveler]

This weekend scenes for a movie will be shot in Midway Utah. Anyone in the area that would like to volunteer to be an extra will likely be used - lots of extras are needed this weekend. The movie is about a global power outage and girds failure and the effects in a small isolated resort town.

Anyone interested contact the casting manager at e-mail [email protected].

[Dravin]

I suppose if one wants to make "bad person" a final judgement I can understand forbearing making such a judgement. Like if we were applying it to people as one would to apples. But I think generally speaking people mean "bad person" as a person who does bad things not necessarily a final judgement (though it can, and does get used in that sense).

That said, I don't care if you are otherwise Mother Teresa, you engage in behavior as mentioned in the OP it's inexcusable. A history of good behavior doesn't somehow negate bad behavior. I think some people have it stuck in their head that if their bad level is 100 but their good level is 101 then that means good things for the next life, as long as one outweighs the bad with the good then one is Golden, and that's not how it works. One negates past bad behavior by repenting of it.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Dravin

[Bini]

One could run around in circles trying to define this term. But there's always two sides to a coin, right? So if there are GOOD people and we know that there are, the Prophet and Mother Teresa would be two fine examples, there must also be BAD people. Where is the line drawn? I think we all have different opinions on it. For me, I think it's more shameful for a married person to engage in an affair than a single person engaging in an affair. Are they both in the wrong? Absolutely, however, I think it's more shameful for someone who has made marriage vows and has a family, versus a single person who does not. Do I personally classify fornicators as "bad" people? Married fornicators, yes, they should know better. Non-married fornicators, not as much, but certainly they share a responsibility as well.

[NeuroTypical]

Required reading for anyone interested in arriving at an answer to Vort's question:

“Judge Not” and Judging By Elder Dallin H. Oaks

The most fundamental principle is contained in the Savior’s commandment that we “judge not unrighteously, … but judge righteous judgment”. Let us consider some principles or ingredients that lead to a “righteous judgment.”

First, a righteous judgment must, by definition, be intermediate. It will refrain from declaring that a person has been assured of exaltation or from dismissing a person as being irrevocably bound for hellfire. It will refrain from declaring that a person has forfeited all opportunity for exaltation or even all opportunity for a useful role in the work of the Lord. The gospel is a gospel of hope, and none of us is authorized to deny the power of the Atonement to bring about a cleansing of individual sins, forgiveness, and a reformation of life on appropriate conditions.

[slamjet]

I have learned by sad experience not to cast stones. If anyone thinks good people never do bad things - they cannot count themselves as good. As to Hitler and others - should they end up in the Celestial Kingdom I do not intend to go somewhere else to be rid of bad people - in fact I think that was one of the flaws of Satan. And while we are speaking of Satan - one of his names is "Accuser". One of the names of Jesus that we are commanded to take upon ourselves as Christians - is "Advocate".

The Traveler

So, if there is a promiscuous person wants to "know you," then you would have no problem having you and/or your teenage children hang out with that person because you are afraid of judging them. I believe you are confusing wisdom vs judgment.

I'm not going to say a person is beyond the reaches of God, that's judgment. But I will say that that person is unhealthy for me to be with. That's wisdom.

[SightByFaith]

There is a great irony being discussed here, in my opinion. We might all agree that only as we approach the knowledge and discernment of the individual human soul which God possesses can we truly understand what motivates people to do what they do, and the amount of light they act against in those doings. So, the closer we get to God, the greater our discernment will be—not only of right and wrong as moral questions, but good and bad as it pertains to the human soul.

But I am reminded of something the Prophet Joseph Smith taught, the origin of which doctrine I accept as Divine:

The nearer we get to our heavenly Father, the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls; we feel that we want to take them upon our shoulders, and cast their sins behind our backs. My talk is intended for all this society; if you would have God have mercy on you, have mercy on one another. (Teachings, p. 241)

It very well may be that person X is bad, but we are not judged by his badness, but by our own conduct, thoughts, and desires which constitute our response to his badness. And if we are indifferent to the suffering of the wicked when they are justly dealt with, or if we revel in the justice heaped upon them—or that it is heaped upon them—we endanger our own souls:

It is one evidence that men are unacquainted with the principles of godliness to behold the contraction of affectionate feelings and lack of charity in the world. The power and glory of godliness is spread out on a broad principle to throw out the mantle of charity. God does not look on sin with allowance, but when men have sinned, there must be allowance made for them. (ibid.)

So on one hand, the closer we get to God, the better we can judge. But at the same time, we cannot get close to God without feeling more compassionate toward those upon whom justice must be imposed.

Edited April 11, 2012 by SightByFaith

[annewandering]

ahhh but knowing them for what they are does NOT mean you can not feel compassion. The one really doesnt preclude the other.

[SightByFaith]

ahhh but knowing them for what they are does NOT mean you can not feel compassion. The one really doesnt preclude the other.

I agree. I was speaking to these statements from the OP:

• I have no sympathy whatsoever for Petrino.
• Whatever happens to him will be no more than he deserves, and probably far less.

These statements seem to be devoid of compassion. They seem to say that, because this man committed moral sins, we should not feel or express compassion for him when judgment is imposed upon him. They even go so far as to suggest that whatever judgment does befall him will not actually have been enough punishment for what he's done. So my comment was made in this context—that if we cannot feel or express compassion, we seem to be devoid of charity to some degree and dissociated from our Heavenly Father to a commensurate degree.

Does that clarify?

Edited April 11, 2012 by SightByFaith

[Sali]

Working as a Counselor, I soon changed my views on good versus bad people. Everybody has a life story. We will never know why another person may do the things they do. Someone mentioned Hitler. We have some idea of his life, but we will never experience his life the way he did; how it shaped him. Do I believe he was born bad? No. Each of us react differently to our individual life's experiences. That is why Jesus Christ can be the only true judge. He can see our hearts. We are not able to see other's hearts the way he can. So I hesitate to label anyone bad or evil. I do not know their life story, their mental struggles or whatever may have happened to cause them to do the things they do.

[annewandering]

People are good and people are evil. It is really easy to condemn people til we know their story then for some reason it is a lot easier to feel compassion than just reading a story. Even knowing there are evil people out there it is not often we see someone who emanates evil. I doubt the people in the OPs story are truly evil. Stupid maybe. Uncaring of who and what they damage. Thoughtless but not exactly evil.

[Guest]

I have no problem calling a woman engaged to a man fornicating with another married man a bad person.

Just like I have no problem calling Tim Tebow a bad NFL quarterback.

Just like I have no problem calling the sky blue on a sunny Florida day.

I call it as I see it.

On the flipside, I don't believe George Zimmerman is a racist. I don't see it.

Am I judging? Well sure. If you can call saying Angelina Jolie is too skinny as judging. I mean, there's nothing wrong with a justice system in a public opinion, is there?

Do I think the cheater woman will go to hell? Uhm, no. I'm not THAT kind of judging. Do you know what I'm saying?

[NeuroTypical]

My kids and I are working on this. We teach them all about bad guys, and how to defend themselves and get help when there's a bad guy.

We also watch movies like Tangled and Monsters vs. Aliens and Meet the Robinsons and Megamind, which explore notions like is a person bad or good - or do they just do bad or good things? And how people become bad or good, and how they sometimes switch sides.

They reach some pretty interesting conclusions. Like there are no bad guys in Diary of a Wimpy Kid, although there were plenty of intentinoal acts of bullying and unspeakable horibleness.

[norah63]

Where's that scripture about, 'when the more part of the people choose to do evil'? Cause in the society we are living in, it's just too true sometimes. There is no 'sin' accounted for, it's always just a 'mistake'.... how convenient is that?

[FunkyTown]

If not a "bad" person, Traveler, would you agree that she's an "evil" person?

Would you say that Hitler was not a bad person? How about Cain? Was Hitler a good person who just did some stupid things? Was Cain just having a stupid moment when he ignored God's warning, loved Satan and slew Abel?

Yes, sometimes good people do stupid things. I work in a prison, and have many of those types in here. But there are many who are truly evil/bad as well.

Can we not agree that there is bad/evil in the world, and it is caused by those who choose bad/evil things?

Sleeping around with a married man is not a stupid act. A one nighter might be a stupid thing done by a generally good person. But having a relationship with a married man is not. It is a choice that stares a person straight in the face, forcing the person to decide whether they will be chaste (or at least not sleeping with a married man), or following their animal lusts. I have no doubt this girl was charmed by money more than by charm. That was her choice. And it is an evil one to make.

Okay, Rame - Let's take the opposite stance here.

Let's say that this same person who is a serial fornicator volunteers at the local homeless shelter. Is he a good person? What if he also gives a huge percentage of his income to charities. Is he a good person? What if the person is a soldier who goes on to sacrifice his life to save the lives of all his fellow soldiers. Is he a good person?

How many good things do you have to do to overcome bad things?

There's a scriptural answer to this, but most wouldn't like the logical conclusion we can draw from that.

[Dravin]

How many good things do you have to do to overcome bad things?

There's a scriptural answer to this, but most wouldn't like the logical conclusion we can draw from that.

That we're all bad people without the atonement of Jesus Christ?

[FunkyTown]

That we're all bad people without the atonement of Jesus Christ?

Absolutely. Meaning that we're all as bad as this serial fornicator who cheats on his/her wife. Yes, even Rame. In fact, it would mean Rame, myself and you are in every way like the men he is legally obliged to sit judgment over.

Some might find that bad, but I find it a cause for great hope. Conversely, also fear. It's complicated.