Do You Dream (Spiritual) Dreams?

[Seminarysnoozer]

It has nothing to do with family history, or what kind of sleeper we are, etc - it comes when one has their mind and will "single with God", and when it is necessary for one's personal spiritual progression.

That's because it is not really a dream as in REM sleep, it is a vision if it is from God.

On the other hand, when people have light sleep they remember their REM dreams more often and they seem more vivid and real. In the field of sleep medicine, this is a sign of someone who does not fully shut off their wake promoting circuits before going to bed, i.e. a light sleeper. There is a long list of sleep disorders ranging from typical chronic insomnia to things like sleep apnea that can make the sleep light.

[RescueMom]

I've had dreams of future events that have come true, but I just record them for my own records and don't share them. When the plane hit the Pentagon on 9/11, I had dreamed about the Friday before it happened, shared the dream with a friend because it was such a strange thing to dream about that I couldn't make sense of it until after the event actually happened.

Been like this since I was just barely old enough to walk, had an NDE and to me this stuff is pretty normal and nothing exceptional. When these dreams happen often they lack enough context to make them preventive.

Right there with ya on that.

I told my friend about a dream I had about me yelling at people to get to higher ground when a bunch of rapidly rising water someplace in India started happening. I told her that I saw the whole thing sitting on top of a tin shed, me and a man, were both there yelling to get to higher ground. Then a huge wave came and we were surrounded by thousands of skeletons. It freaked me out so bad I called her. Three months latter she called me right after the Tsunami hit. I've never been to India, all the dead were from India.

I keep my dreams to myself now. I have no idea why I have them.

[bluedreams]

So I was wondering...have you had dreams that have led you to answers of question you have had or warned you of future challenges?

Yes, I have....definitely 3 at least. They were extremely personal answers and like most answers from God were meant to guide and direct me as well as change my heart. They were sometimes almost ignored cuz they didn't seem super special. They were just really strange, really vivid dreams that had a message, didn't fade easily, and felt like I should write down. It was only till the last one that I really strongly believed they were something more. And when I did, my trust in their actuality was whimpy at times. I wanted what I saw so bad that I was afraid of it. That has diminished as my faith and trust has increased.

Also, if you have such dreams accompanied by a sacred feeling do they happen when you are going to sleep, do you wake up from a sound sleep, are they gradual happenings early in the morning or later as your waking? or ??

The first two, it was right before I woke up up in the morning. The third woke me up from a dead sleep because of the overpowering sense of love that it brought to my heart. I purposely stayed awake a little longer, knowing that I shouldn't forget this. I then went back to bed and wrote about it in my journal the next morning. This dream had two main characters (not including myself) that linked back to the previous dreams. That's why it convinced me of the other two were something more than just vividly strong dreams.

And E. Scot's talk, BTW, stung my heart hard. It was a continued answer to something I needed that was apart of those earlier dreams as well. They still seem far-fetched somedays, but I do not doubt them anymore.

With luv,

BD

[Seminarysnoozer]

The first two, it was right before I woke up up in the morning. The third woke me up from a dead sleep because of the overpowering sense of love that it brought to my heart. I purposely stayed awake a little longer, knowing that I shouldn't forget this. I then went back to bed and wrote about it in my journal the next morning. This dream had two main characters (not including myself) that linked back to the previous dreams. That's why it convinced me of the other two were something more than just vividly strong dreams.

To remember a dream, you have to wake up. Otherwise, you don't form any memory about the dream. The act of turning on sleep circuits in the brain erases memory of what just happened over the past 2 to 3 minutes. This is a proven fact.

If you woke up from it you likely were not in a "dead" sleep, whatever that means. I'm not sure how you would know how deep your sleep was anyways. If you have consciousness about your sleep, meaning if you perceive it one way or another, by definition, it is light. Sleep and wakeful circuits are separate in the brain, this is what makes it possible to sleepwalk, sleep talk etc. One remembers dreams more if they are half awake, which would, by definition, mean the person is sleeping lightly, not "dead" sleep.

If we believe in gaining insight from hallucinatory states, why don't we also believe in having spiritual experiences from smoking Jimson weed or taking some other hallucinogen? It seems like that would be equally as effective.

[bluedreams]

To remember a dream, you have to wake up. Otherwise, you don't form any memory about the dream. The act of turning on sleep circuits in the brain erases memory of what just happened over the past 2 to 3 minutes. This is a proven fact.

I was aware of that....that's why I stayed awake a few minutes. I didn't want to forget because it was beautiful and precious to me.

If you woke up from it you likely were not in a "dead" sleep, whatever that means. I'm not sure how you would know how deep your sleep was anyways. If you have consciousness about your sleep, meaning if you perceive it one way or another, by definition, it is light. Sleep and wakeful circuits are separate in the brain, this is what makes it possible to sleepwalk, sleep talk etc. One remembers dreams more if they are half awake, which would, by definition, mean the person is sleeping lightly, not "dead" sleep.

By dead sleep, I mean I was on my mission, it was 2-3 in the morning, and it was after I was used to mission life. At this point I'd be knocked out cold. I wouldn't wake up easily at this hour. I'm also aware of the stages of sleep. I know that technically I was in REM sleep if I was sleeping.

If we believe in gaining insight from hallucinatory states, why don't we also believe in having spiritual experiences from smoking Jimson weed or taking some other hallucinogen? It seems like that would be equally as effective.

I know my dreams. I ha I dream alot and I'm usually vaguely aware of them. Some of my favorite dreams are what I call my "movie dreams..." Elaborate stories that I quite enjoy and feel like I should have gone to bed with a bowl of popcorn in hand. I've had nightmares. I've had sensual dreams. I've had those dreams where you show up naked. I know my dreams and I can honestly say this was different. THis was no run of the mill dream. No dream has ever come with a deep sense of the Spirit and with love so powerful that it helps to change who I am. Beforehand, I wouldn't have believed the difference between the two. Visions and dreams were for scriptures and other people. But not me. Yet I experienced both. They all tied together to give me one message that has changed how I viewed myself and assured me of the promises of the Lord among other things.

I don't know everything. I don't pretend to understand entirely the concept of visions or the difs between a dream and a Dream. But I cannot deny my experience. I can't explain them away. I tried. A couple of times. The Spirit told me quite clearly that these were right...over and over and over again. Scot's talk was a culmination of this message that had been occuring more quietly over months of time. So If it was a "hallucinatory state" so be it. The hallucination was true and of the Spirit of God. That's all that matters.

With luv,

BD

[LeKook]

Right there with ya on that.

I told my friend about a dream I had about me yelling at people to get to higher ground when a bunch of rapidly rising water someplace in India started happening. I told her that I saw the whole thing sitting on top of a tin shed, me and a man, were both there yelling to get to higher ground. Then a huge wave came and we were surrounded by thousands of skeletons. It freaked me out so bad I called her. Three months latter she called me right after the Tsunami hit. I've never been to India, all the dead were from India.

I keep my dreams to myself now. I have no idea why I have them.

I had almost the exact same dream back in the early 1990s. When I learned that over 10,000 died in Bangladesh on the news the following day, I was pretty stunned. Why anyone has predictive dreams I'll never understand, especially when you tell folks they just think you're crazy!

[Seminarysnoozer]

I don't know everything. I don't pretend to understand entirely the concept of visions or the difs between a dream and a Dream. But I cannot deny my experience. I can't explain them away. I tried. A couple of times. The Spirit told me quite clearly that these were right...over and over and over again. Scot's talk was a culmination of this message that had been occuring more quietly over months of time. So If it was a "hallucinatory state" so be it. The hallucination was true and of the Spirit of God. That's all that matters.

With luv,

BD

Thanks, I am not saying that your experience was a hallucination. I wouldn't have any idea and I would tend to believe you, not knowing. I am simply saying that a dream is a hallucinatory state. Why call it a dream if you think it was a vision?

[bluedreams]

Thanks, I am not saying that your experience was a hallucination. I wouldn't have any idea and I would tend to believe you, not knowing. I am simply saying that a dream is a hallucinatory state. Why call it a dream if you think it was a vision?

What HiJolly said. They're quite different. For one: In one I was awake in the other I wasn't. And, at least for me the dreams were more symbolically oriented and meant to portray a message. The vision was more literal and meant to be a source of clarity and love.

Who knows, It's not like I've had a plethora of either. None of them were super long or told me some crazy world changing news or anything (changed my world, just not too many beyond that). But from what little experience I've had, I would state there's a difference....similar to how Lehi's dream of the tree of life differs from the visionary explanation Nephi would receive about the tree of life (just not as cool ).

With luv,

BD

Edited April 16, 2012 by bluedreams

[Seminarysnoozer]

What HiJolly said. They're quite different. For one: In one I was awake in the other I wasn't. And, at least for me the dreams were more symbolically oriented and meant to portray a message. The vision was more literal and meant to be a source of clarity and love.

Who knows, It's not like I've had a plethora of either. None of them were super long or told me some crazy world changing news or anything (changed my world, just not too many beyond that). But from what little experience I've had, I would state there's a difference....similar to how Lehi's dream of the tree of life differs from the visionary explanation Nephi would receive about the tree of life (just not as cool ).

With luv,

BD

Let me just reinforce our current understanding of REM dreaming. What you remember of the dream is what is flowing through the working memory circuits of the brain upon awakening. In other words, what one remembers is not the part that occurs when you are asleep. You form memory of the imaginary sensations created by the brain in the last few moments of the REM period that are still part of working memory for a few moments. They would not be retained unless you are awake when retaining them. So, your "experience" of the dream actually occurs when you are awake, always, by definition. When a person is asleep they are not conscious and therefore cannot recall anything that occurred while asleep. This is an impossibility. Like staring at the sun for a moment, you can close your eyes and you will still see the image. The image and made up story line the brain creates while in REM remains momentarily in working memory for a few moments upon awakening and what we perceive happened while asleep is actually only happening while awake for those first few moments.

Why should anyone care about this? Well, because we are not a religion that believes in artificially disconnecting from the body to gain spiritual insight such as in taking sedatives, alcohol, or hallucinogens like some other religions have declared is spiritually insightful. (i.e Henbane, Peyote, mushrooms, etc.)

Was Lehi awake or asleep when he had his "dream"? .... he wasn't asleep.

[HiJolly]

Thanks, I am not saying that your experience was a hallucination. I wouldn't have any idea and I would tend to believe you, not knowing. I am simply saying that a dream is a hallucinatory state. Why call it a dream if you think it was a vision?

I'm not saying that I place any extreme confidence in Wikipedia, but...

A hallucination, in the broadest sense of the word, is a perception in the absence of a stimulus. In a stricter sense, hallucinations are defined as perceptions in a conscious and awake state in the absence of external stimuli which have qualities of real perception, in that they are vivid, substantial, and located in external objective space. The latter definition distinguishes hallucinations from the related phenomena of dreaming, which does not involve wakefulness;

Back to the drawing board for you, Ss!

HJ

[Seminarysnoozer]

I'm not saying that I place any extreme confidence in Wikipedia, but...

A hallucination, in the broadest sense of the word, is a perception in the absence of a stimulus. In a stricter sense, hallucinations are defined as perceptions in a conscious and awake state in the absence of external stimuli which have qualities of real perception, in that they are vivid, substantial, and located in external objective space. The latter definition distinguishes hallucinations from the related phenomena of dreaming, which does not involve wakefulness;

Back to the drawing board for you, Ss!

HJ

Your mistake is that you are using the terms "dream" and "dreaming" interchangeably. "Dreaming" can be measured externally, without the persons perception of being in that state, such as polysomnography. A "dream" is different than "dreaming" in that the "dream" is the part that is perceived in consciousness, after sleep.

If you read my post just above yours, you will see my explanation of this. The perception of dreaming occurs during wakefulness. It is the gathering of information left in the circuits of the working memory, while a person is awake but that remain from the non-stimulus driven circuits of the brain while in REM (i.e. - imaginative circuits, the same ones that drive hallucinations). At that moment of recognition while awake following sleep, the dream is formed in a person's consciousness as if it had happened while asleep.

A proof of this is the fact that REM sleep can be observed in a person (polysomnography) without them waking from sleep and the person does not maintain memory of that REM period. If, however, the person is awoken in REM and stays awake for several minutes then there is a greater chance of forming a memory of the REM period.

If there is no wakefulness there is no memory. By definition, to remember a dream requires wakefulness. A "dream" is the part that is remembered, which is different than saying the state of "dreaming" which is the quote that you gave.

The state of "dreaming" does not necessarily result in a person perceiving a dream. You failed to separate those two things in your quote. A dream is the wakeful perception of the dreaming state. But a person can be dreaming without hallucinating, by their definition, if the event is not perceived. As soon as it is perceived, though, it has to be done in wakefulness as there is nothing perceived in unconsciousness (sleep).

[lds2]

It seems for some people waking is a process towards consciousness where for me it is usually all or nothing.

[classylady]

I've had one "spiritual" dream that I know of. I also have had several dreams come true. But, those dreams were not "spiritual", just events that happened the way I saw them in my dream, but with some minor differences. When I was a teenager I had a dream where I was sitting outside on the front steps of my high school during school hours with a girl named Jill, (we were not friends). While we were sitting there, a boy I had never seen before (and I knew everyone in my HS because of it's small size) came walking up the sidewalk towards us with a white Mickey Mouse T shirt on. He was carrying something but I couldn't tell what it was. I turned to Jill and said "Wow, look at the Mickey Mouse shirt", and he walked on into the school. I remember waking up from that dream and thinking, hmmm, that's strange, why would I be sitting outside during class, with Jill, whom I don't know very well? And who is that boy I've never seen? Later that week, there was a band competition at our HS. They were using the gym for the competition, and my PE teacher told us class was cancelled. I happened to wander outside and was sitting on the front steps of the school. Jill, who had the same class as me, came outside and sat down beside me. We were chatting, when I looked up, and there was a boy coming up the sidewalk towards us. He was carrying a band instrument and had a Mickey Mouse shirt on, (but it was blue not white). I turned to Jill, just like in my dream and said "Wow, look at the Mickey Mouse shirt". And, that's when it hit me. This was just like my dream. Same boy as my dream too. Freaked me out! I don't have any explanation for this phenomena. I had another dream that came true. Again, no earth shattering occurrence, just an event. I dreamt that I was sitting on my bed in my bedroom and heard a buzzing sound coming from my top dresser drawer. Curious, not knowing what it was, I went over and opened the drawer, and a big bumble bee flew out. Several days later, I was sitting on my bed reading, when I heard a buzzing from my top dresser drawer. This time I actually remembered my dream. Because of the dream I was pretty sure what was in the drawer. I wasn't scared, bees don't frighten me. I walked over to the dresser, opened the drawer, and the bee flew out, just like my dream. I don't look at these as "warning" dreams. They were just events that happened. Coincidence? I don't know. The dreams seemed to be too precise to just be coincidence. I had the exact clothes on, as in my dreams, the events happened almost exactly as my dreams, but the boy did have a blue shirt on, instead of white as in my dream. But, the Mickey Mouse picture on the T shirt was the exact Mickey Mouse picture in the dream and in my life experience. Weird.

[bluedreams]

Was Lehi awake or asleep when he had his "dream"? .... he wasn't asleep.

Look. That's wonderful. Brain's an amazing organ. I'm aware. But forgive me if I take various scriptures and my personal experience over generalized sleep studies and MRI scans that are correlative in nature, have no difinitive means to prove causation, and have probably never measured someone having these types of dreams anyways.

I'm saying it was a dream. I was asleep. I woke up from the powerful impressions to my spirit. I'm not worried about making "distinctions" between LSD, acid, peote, and dreams. Don't really need to. Scriptures and the WoW do a pretty good job of explaining the perameters. Haven't heard of a prophet in the standard works getting high to learn of God. And when lighter drugs are forbidden in the WoW while modern prophets have explicitly talked about abusing drugs and some discourage the use of just caffeine....well that's enough for me. There's really no need to distinguish, God's set some pretty high perameters, so it shouldn't be much of a worry. Call it whatever you like, but I don't see the need to worry about promoting hallucinations by stating I have had spiritual dreams. It is what it is.

With luv,

BD

[Seminarysnoozer]

Look. That's wonderful. Brain's an amazing organ. I'm aware. But forgive me if I take various scriptures and my personal experience over generalized sleep studies and MRI scans that are correlative in nature, have no difinitive means to prove causation, and have probably never measured someone having these types of dreams anyways.

I'm saying it was a dream. I was asleep. I woke up from the powerful impressions to my spirit. I'm not worried about making "distinctions" between LSD, acid, peote, and dreams. Don't really need to. Scriptures and the WoW do a pretty good job of explaining the perameters. Haven't heard of a prophet in the standard works getting high to learn of God. And when lighter drugs are forbidden in the WoW while modern prophets have explicitly talked about abusing drugs and some discourage the use of just caffeine....well that's enough for me. There's really no need to distinguish, God's set some pretty high perameters, so it shouldn't be much of a worry. Call it whatever you like, but I don't see the need to worry about promoting hallucinations by stating I have had spiritual dreams. It is what it is.

With luv,

BD

Yes, there is a need to distinguish. Just last night on the news there was a story about an ipod app to help a person "control" their dreams. The app puts out certain words to try to affect the character of the dreams. People seek spiritual insight in places where it isn't to be found. In a similar way, I make a distinction between when I feel the sensation of heartburn versus a burning in the heart. A "dream" in the scriptures is a vision, not what happens in REM sleep.

Satan has been given dominion over the body, all the things of the Earth. It is very important to distinguish what comes from the body versus what comes from the spirit. This is our basic test. I would propose making that distinction is very difficult when a person is unconscious. If you think you can do that in the unconscious state, more power to you.

[Still_Small_Voice]

Satan has been given dominion over the body, all the things of the Earth. It is very important to distinguish what comes from the body versus what comes from the spirit. This is our basic test. I would propose making that distinction is very difficult when a person is unconscious. If you think you can do that in the unconscious state, more power to you.

What do you mean that Satan has been given dominion over the body? I do not understand what you are writing about.

[jb789]

A "dream" in the scriptures is a vision, not what happens in REM sleep.

Satan has been given dominion over the body, all the things of the Earth. It is very important to distinguish what comes from the body versus what comes from the spirit. This is our basic test.

In my limited experience and knowledge, I would say this is accurate. Surely when prophets in the scriptures had revelatory dreams, they knew they were from God. Likewise, as Joseph Smith has described, a true dream or vision (use whichever term you'd like) is accompanied by eternal glory - this is very different from a regular dream, which has no such glory of God experienced!

Ultimately, only the experiencer can know if it is from God, though we do have to be careful we aren't assigning meaning to dreams when they were just the wandering of our own minds. If it is from God, and is a revelation, it will stand in stark contrast to any other kind of dream one might have had, they are completely different things.

[bluedreams]

Satan has been given dominion over the body, all the things of the Earth. It is very important to distinguish what comes from the body versus what comes from the spirit. This is our basic test. I would propose making that distinction is very difficult when a person is unconscious. If you think you can do that in the unconscious state, more power to you.

Have my discrepencies about satan's dominion thing....but onto the unconcious state, yes I think I can make that distinction. It's the same as learning to distinguish between the intense emotions of the waking hours and the Spirit. When a youth I saw (and did myself) cry about this or that when bearing testimony. Only problem is it wasn't really about the spirit but group experiences and personal emotions of some sort or another. The fact that I cried while bearing testimony and it wasn't the Spirit does not negate or confuse every experience I've had feeling the spirit while crying sense. I've learned the difference. Same applies to dreams. I've had intense dreams that have aroused various emotions in the past. They're not the same as these spiritual dreams. They do not have the hallmark signature of the Spirit of God. Just because some continue to confuse the two doesn't mean that we have to head back to the drawing board to make a better line in the sand.

With luv,

BD

[Seminarysnoozer]

Have my discrepencies about satan's dominion thing....but onto the unconcious state, yes I think I can make that distinction. It's the same as learning to distinguish between the intense emotions of the waking hours and the Spirit. When a youth I saw (and did myself) cry about this or that when bearing testimony. Only problem is it wasn't really about the spirit but group experiences and personal emotions of some sort or another. The fact that I cried while bearing testimony and it wasn't the Spirit does not negate or confuse every experience I've had feeling the spirit while crying sense. I've learned the difference. Same applies to dreams. I've had intense dreams that have aroused various emotions in the past. They're not the same as these spiritual dreams. They do not have the hallmark signature of the Spirit of God. Just because some continue to confuse the two doesn't mean that we have to head back to the drawing board to make a better line in the sand.

With luv,

BD

I think you are missing my point. "Spiritual dreams" is a bit of an oxymoron. We do not know, and I highly doubt, that the spirit dreams. The brain dreams, I don't think the spirit dreams. If it is through the spirit that one is obtaining visions, then we call it a vision. If there are images produced by the act of REM sleep, then we call that dreaming.

Just like, if I have acid go up into my esophagus I call it heartburn and if the spirit touches my heart I might call it burning in the chest.

I am just saying that it is unfortunate that we call visions that occur at night, "dreams". It would be the same problem if we called 'burning in the bosom', "heartburn".

If every time I was touched by the spirit I told people that "I got that heartburn feeling" again, that would confuse people about where this is coming from. Likewise, if it is said that a vision received was a "dream" that would confuse people about where this is coming from. It does not come from the act of REM sleep made by the brain, which is random, imaginative strings of thought produced by the imaginative parts of the brain combined with memories and sometimes ongoing sensory stimuli, not input from spiritual sources. ... any more than my heartburn is from a spiritual source.

I think it is false to believe that a vision would be delivered to anyone while unconscious.

[Seminarysnoozer]

What do you mean that Satan has been given dominion over the body? I do not understand what you are writing about.

Satan has dominion over everything on the Earth (at the moment), including our body which is made of the dust of this Earth even though the Lord maintains ownership and will come back to rule. Right now, though, Christ has not come back yet to rule over all things of the Earth. Luckily he does not have power over our spirit, unless given.

Matt 4:8-10 " 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

And Romans 8: " 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the acreature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of ccorruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation agroaneth and travaileth in pain together until now."

And John 12 " 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out." Jesus called Satan the prince of this world.

Paul speaks of the corruption of the flesh and carnality in many examples. We also know that the natural man is an enemy to God. If man does nothing, what comes natural, then the body is subject to more control by Satan. It is only through righteous action and constant effort that we break free from that control. ... In a state of unconsciousness, of course, one cannot do that, this is why we stay away from alcohol, for example.

[HiJolly]

I think it is false to believe that a vision would be delivered to anyone while unconscious.

Having experienced more than one visionary dream, I'm very confident that you are incorrect.

HiJolly

[Seminarysnoozer]

Having experienced more than one visionary dream, I'm very confident that you are incorrect.

HiJolly

Explain to me then, how do you "experience" anything while unconscious?

[bluedreams]

SS,

People experience things when they are dead (NDE's).

I watched a documentary a couple months ago of a person who experienced things while in a coma.

They're about 3 steps ahead on the unconcious factor.

Why would it be so weird/false to experience something while dreaming?

I think you are missing my point. "Spiritual dreams" is a bit of an oxymoron. We do not know, and I highly doubt, that the spirit dreams. The brain dreams, I don't think the spirit dreams. If it is through the spirit that one is obtaining visions, then we call it a vision. If there are images produced by the act of REM sleep, then we call that dreaming.

I think it is false to believe that a vision would be delivered to anyone while unconscious.

I've experienced a number of things that would seem like oxymorons if taken in the perameters you've set. To me, the split duality of the physical and spiritual is weird. Understandable, but unneccesary and weird. (It probably doesn't help that I've just finished my semester with personality theory, philosophy behind psychology, etc....messes with you quite a bit. All I see now is underlying philosophical assumptions ). To me, saying my brain dreams is about as logical as saying my legs walk. Yes, they're part of it, they're necessary for it, but I am the whole of these parts that give any meaning. I dream. I am my body and my spirit. I am soul. Seperating the two as distinctive and almost autonomous is, IMO, unnecessary and incorrect. Not only that, but then it makes experiences I've had inconceivable. But they're not. So I would state that there's probably something missing in your overall premise.

And I understand that you want to clarify between a dream (ie. the night time REM cycle and its momentary organization that we make of it at wakefulness) and a vision. I'm simply stating it's unnecessary and not accurate. It makes sense, I'm sure, to you. But for one who's experienced all three (regulary dreams, visions while in the middle of sleep, and a vision while wide awake). It appears actually less clarifying and irrelevant to personal experience.

If someone wants the most accurate description of what I experienced it must take into consideration that I was asleep and dreaming.

Now off to enjoy my first day free from school!

With luv,

BD

[Vort]

I'm pretty sure what Seminarysnoozer is saying is that, by definition, you can't experience anything while unconscious. A dream state is not unconsciousness in that sense. If you have ever had a surgical operation where you were put under and then, seemingly immediately, found yourself waking up in the recovery room, that interim period was unconsciousness. If you experience something, you're not unconscious.

Apologies to SS if I have misrepresented SS's position.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I am my body and my spirit. I am soul. Seperating the two as distinctive and almost autonomous is, IMO, unnecessary and incorrect.

This is obviously where we differ in our view. To say this is incorrect goes against the teachings of Joseph F. Smith and Brigham Young and many others.

If it weren't so, like you are suggesting, then you would be held responsible for every passing thought. If someone has a passing thought of jealousy, or anger, for example, we know that we are not held responsible for those thoughts, so long as we don't let them linger and take them in. If I see a handsome man walking down the street and I am momentarily feel an attraction to him, did I sin? So long as I don't turn it into a desire of my heart, a lust, no. If the body, which produces the hunger on fast Sunday, the sleepiness for the Apostles in the Garden of Gethsemane, the passing thought of lust, anger, sexual attraction, pride, etc. is inseparable from the spirit as you say, then we would be held accountable for those thoughts and those shortcomings.

If the body and the spirit are inseparable then the schizophrenic who commits murder would have to pay the price for their sin in full. The person with Bipolar disease who goes out on a manic episode and has 3 sexual encounters in one night would be responsible for their actions. If the body and the spirit are not autonomous then you suggest all those with Down's syndrome are that way because their spirit is that way, which is absolutely ridiculous.

Paul talks about the desires of the flesh, this is one of our basic teachings.

President Soares of the seventies says it well here; "To sow in the Spirit means that all our thoughts, words, and actions must elevate us to the level of the divinity of our heavenly parents. However, the scriptures refer to the flesh as the physical or carnal nature of the natural man, which allows people to be influenced by passion, desires, appetites, and drives of the flesh instead of looking for inspiration from the Holy Ghost. If we are not careful, those influences together with the pressure of the evil in the world may conduct us to adopt vulgar and reckless behavior which may become part of our character. In order to avoid those bad influences, we have to follow what the Lord instructed the Prophet Joseph Smith about continuously sowing in the Spirit: “Wherefore, be not weary in well-doing, for ye are laying the foundation of a great work. And out of small things proceedeth that which is great” (D&C 64:33)."

Spiritual influences come from the spirit, carnal influences come from the flesh. They are clearly separated and thank goodness not one in the same. I am glad we understand that within the fullness of the gospel. We are not born evil as some religions believe, because I am not my flesh, I am my spirit.