Heathens?


Recommended Posts

I have been wondering about this. some time ago i got told that the people who wasn't born in the covenant (non-jews) would be described as heathens, that someone who is adopted into the covenant would be a heathen. Can someone clarify this for me?

Would be described by whom? The scriptures make a gentile and non-gentile distinction, and they do use the term heathen to refer to polytheists but I've never heard this distinction you're making. Since I'm not sure what it was you were told I can't really clarify it for you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have been wondering about this. some time ago i got told that the people who wasn't born in the covenant (non-jews) would be described as heathens, that someone who is adopted into the covenant would be a heathen. Can someone clarify this for me?

umm think heathen refers to worshipping other gods.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I sometimes call my children heathens. lol When they are running around wild and unruly and out of control I will tell them "stop running around crazy like a bunch of heathens" lol

Is that bad?

I guess "back in the day" one would have said "wild indians" in that context instead of heathens but that would stereotyping and potentially insulting to native americans. I don't know of any group that takes pride in calling themselves heathens so no one to offend there. Right? lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In D&C, the term "heathen nations" is often used to describe China, India and other similar nations that do not worship God/Christ/Allah/etc.

From a Jewish standpoint, they are Israel and all others are Gentiles. From an LDS perspective, LDS are spiritual Israel and all others (including Jews) are spiritual Gentiles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From an LDS perspective, LDS are spiritual Israel and all others (including Jews) are spiritual Gentiles.

Yes, so genetics are not an issue. This makes it very hard, for someone who was raised LDS, to understand why genetics was ever an issue. I still don't understand that. When we talk about "seed" then we are just talking in the spiritual sense, right? The promises made to Abraham, as far as his seed, was only in this "spiritual Israel" sense, right? ... if not, then we open the door to believing it to be more than just "spiritual".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I could see why you're confused.

Definitions courtesy of Bible Dictionary

Israel

1. The man Jacob

2. The literal descendants of Jacob

3. The true believers in Christ, regardless of their geographical location

Gentile

1. The descendants of Japheth

2. People of non-Israelite lineage

3. Nations that are without the gospel, even though there may be some Israelite blood therein.

From a LDS perspective, LDS are of Israel due to definition 3 as well as defnition 2 either by birth or by adoption.

I've never heard the term Spiritual Israel but I expect that this is Ram's way of differentiating between the 3rd definitions.

Genetics is an issue since certain blessings flow through specific bloodlines.

Genetics isn't an issue in that even if someone had no Israelite inheritance, they are adopted into the tree of Israel through Baptism/Confirmation with specific tribe/blessings being revealed during that individual's Patriarchal Blessing.

The promises made to Abraham, as far as his seed, is to all who are his literal descendants as well as those who are adopted 'grafted' in. I understand that we believe that for any one individual to receive the fullness of these blessings, in their own life, it requires acceptance and adhearance to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and membership in the Lord's Church.

I hope this helps =)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I could see why you're confused.

Definitions courtesy of Bible Dictionary

Israel

1. The man Jacob

2. The literal descendants of Jacob

3. The true believers in Christ, regardless of their geographical location

Gentile

1. The descendants of Japheth

2. People of non-Israelite lineage

3. Nations that are without the gospel, even though there may be some Israelite blood therein.

From a LDS perspective, LDS are of Israel due to definition 3 as well as defnition 2 either by birth or by adoption.

I've never heard the term Spiritual Israel but I expect that this is Ram's way of differentiating between the 3rd definitions.

Genetics is an issue since certain blessings flow through specific bloodlines.

Genetics isn't an issue in that even if someone had no Israelite inheritance, they are adopted into the tree of Israel through Baptism/Confirmation with specific tribe/blessings being revealed during that individual's Patriarchal Blessing.

The promises made to Abraham, as far as his seed, is to all who are his literal descendants as well as those who are adopted 'grafted' in. I understand that we believe that for any one individual to receive the fullness of these blessings, in their own life, it requires acceptance and adhearance to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and membership in the Lord's Church.

I hope this helps =)

Thanks for summarizing. I don't think I am confused, I think the use of the terms is confusing. ... Just like you stated; "Genetics is an issue..." and then the next sentence "Genetics isn't an issue ..."

If A + B = 'promises made to Abraham', and A does not equal 'promises made to Abraham', and B = 'promises made to Abraham', then it leads us to believe that the value of A is nothing.

In this simplification A = the literal descendants of Abraham, B = making and living by the covenants of the gospel.

What, if anything, is passed onto a literal descendant of Abraham if the person does not accept the gospel? What I am asking here is not what is passed on by growing up in a family that has the gospel or raised with that knowledge. I am asking what is passed on in the genetic material of being a "literal" descendant of Abraham. If we don't think there is anything passed on in the genetic material then why use the word "literal". The word "literal" has no meaning if we do not believe there is something passed on genetically. So, what is the thing that is passed in the genes? That is the thing that is not given in the gospel. The only thing people will say is that the promise is passed on. But, in reality the "promise" is not passed in the genes, it is passed in the covenant and by living by the covenant. So, the word "literal" becomes deceptive in our modern understanding of the words "literal descendant".

If an identical twin literal descendant of Abraham was adopted at birth by a family who did not live under the covenant, what thing did that person carry with them to the new family in terms of the promise that he shares with his twin that does grow up under the covenant?

And, if a "literal" descendant of Abraham is born into a family that has not had the gospel or the covenants for 50 generations, what does that individual have by way of being a literal descendant that a person who is not a literal descendant also born into a family who does not have the gospel? I am not seeing what that thing is.

Edited by Seminarysnoozer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have been wondering about this. some time ago i got told that the people who wasn't born in the covenant (non-jews) would be described as heathens, that someone who is adopted into the covenant would be a heathen. Can someone clarify this for me?

Huh! I've never heard that, and I've been in the Church all my life.

By that definition of "heathen," both of my parents are heathens, because they were both converts to the Church, and therefore not born in the covenant. I was born in the covenant, but I'm not Jewish (though I do have some Jewish blood), and so I must be a heathen, too! Wow! Who woulda thunk? :lol:

No, that's a bunch of nonsense. Anybody who's a member of the Church is part of the covenant people, and part of the House of Israel. "Gentile" is the word some Mormons (and Jews) use to refer to non-Mormons (or non-Jews). It doesn't have to be derogatory, but simply means "clan, tribe, or nation," referring to the non-Abrahamic-covenant nations of the world.

There are modern people who call themselves "heathens," though. They are people who follow certain branches of Neo-Pagan religion, such as Asatru, Odinism, or Theodism. But somehow I don't think that's what you're talking about! ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

umm think heathen refers to worshipping other gods.

Are there other gods to worship? If God is jealous and wants you to worship him alone, and there really aren't any other gods to worship, this would be like a wife feeling jealous of her artist husband painting a picture of a beautiful woman who does not even exist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are there other gods to worship? If God is jealous and wants you to worship him alone, and there really aren't any other gods to worship, this would be like a wife feeling jealous of her artist husband painting a picture of a beautiful woman who does not even exist.

I don't know if that is a very good example, women get jealous over a lot of things. I get jealous of my husband's time when he spends time tinkering with his car and excitedly talks about doing something to the car more than he would spending time with me.

The statement is one of having the heart in the right place. As the test associated with this life is one of revealing the desires of the heart, this is an extremely important thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have been wondering about this. some time ago i got told that the people who wasn't born in the covenant (non-jews) would be described as heathens, that someone who is adopted into the covenant would be a heathen. Can someone clarify this for me?

Somewhat adopted into the Jewish covenant would be a Proselyte.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SOME Muslims use the term Kafir for those who are not Muslim and in context it is almost like a swear word. However, the one time that I used it, another Muslim really was quite cross with me. Why is it that others can get away with these things and I can not?

Labels are not good, I think.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are there other gods to worship? If God is jealous and wants you to worship him alone, and there really aren't any other gods to worship, this would be like a wife feeling jealous of her artist husband painting a picture of a beautiful woman who does not even exist.

Like a husband infatuated with internet pornography -- women who do not really exist, at least not in the form he lusts for?

If a "god" is defined as anything you worship (and "worship" is defined as what you follow or strive to achieve or to please), then there are any number of false gods. In this context, "false" does not mean "non-existent"; it means "unable to save". Only one God can offer salvation, and that is the true God. Other gods exist, but are false; following them always leads ultimately to misery.

Edited by Vort
tpyo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find it sad that you assume that because not everyone believes in your "One True God", that they lived a life or will live a life of misery. Mormons aren't the only ones who can be happy with their life, although the higher than average percentage of anti-depressant use may help.

Also, your use of quotation marks as non-quoting punctuation bothers me as it feels as if my eyes have to climb Everest on every word. Is your nickname Migs on ldschat?

Edited by Praetorian_Brow
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Like a husband infatuated with internet pornography -- women who do not really exist, at least not in the form he lusts for?

If a "god" is defined as anything you worship (and "worship" is defined as what you follow or strive to achieve or to please), then there are any number of false gods. In this context, "false" does not mean "non-existent"; it means "unable to save". Only one God can offer salvation, and that is the true God. Other gods exist, but are false; following them always leads ultimately to misery.

It puts me in mind of this passage from one of C.S. Lewis' essays:

"These things—the beauty, the memory of our own past—are good images of what we really desire; but if they are mistaken for the thing itself they turn into dumb idols, breaking the hearts of their worshippers. For they are not the thing itself; they are only the scent of a flower we have not found, the echo of a tune we have not heard, news from a country we have never yet visited.”

The point is (I think) that a "false god" can be something in itself quite good and healthy, but which we elevate to the status of godhood.

Edited by Jamie123
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why high antidepressant use in Utah? | Deseret News

Antidepressants flow freely in Utah as 1 in 5 women partakes | Deseret News

I spent the majority of my life in the church and all you have to do is look around in Sacrament to see the people who are barely keeping up with the expected social standards. That puts a lot of stress on people and as my first link points out, they are less likely to self medicate and therefore have no qualms about seeking the latest miracle magic pill advertised on television from their doctor to feel better.

Your link quotes a survey with the majority surveryed being returned sister missionaries. I would hazard a guess that those women are very recently returned and no doubt frothing at the mouth with tales of miracles, despite spending three quarters of their mission crying to their fiance every week about how hard it is and that they want to come home because such and such a person commented on their complexion.

I don't dispute the fact that keeping faith and a higher standard of integrity brings happiness. I do dispute the blanket statements that gloss over the fact that with a higher standard comes a higher failure rate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your link quotes a survey with the majority surveryed being returned sister missionaries. I would hazard a guess that those women are very recently returned and no doubt frothing at the mouth with tales of miracles, despite spending three quarters of their mission crying to their fiance every week about how hard it is and that they want to come home because such and such a person commented on their complexion.

You don't have a very high opinion of sister missionaries do you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find it sad that you assume that because not everyone believes in your "One True God", that they lived a life or will live a life of misery. Mormons aren't the only ones who can be happy with their life, although the higher than average percentage of anti-depressant use may help.

I would hazzard to guess that many non-Christians, including heathens who worship other gods, or agnostics and atheists and non-theists, who worship none, enjoy this life more than we do. They eat, drink, and can be merry, without feeling obliged to please an eternal God, nor to prepare themselves for an eternal destiny. Despite Solomon's experiment, in which he found all such temporal pursuits to be folly (see Ecclesiastes), a good many people find great satisfaction in achieving material wealth, power, reputation, and in having a great fun time.

It's unlikely that the Apostles enjoyed their Christian lives. 11 of them were killed, with John serving a lengthy prison sentence. This year, well in excess of 100,000 Christians will be martyred. (Christian Martyrs, One Every Five Minutes: «A Reliable Estimate», by Massimo Introvigne) Even those of us living in rich countries and enjoying cultural favor abstain from many of societies pleasures, trading them for obligations to church and charity.

There is no sorrow in this. We do believe there is one true God. If we're right, then temporal pleasure is not the measure of our success. It is whether we have feared God and obeyed his commands...whether we have followed hard after our Sovereign.

Edited by prisonchaplain
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I spent the majority of my life in the church and all you have to do is look around in Sacrament to see the people who are barely keeping up with the expected social standards.

I have never understood statements like these. I have spent almost 50 years in the Church and I have never experienced such things. Either I lead a charmed life (which is almost certainly true), or people see what they expect to see.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rhetorical accusation that accomplishes nothing. I aplogize for your discomfort through my sarcasm.

The best moments of my church career have been spent with Sister missionaries. I was going to marry one.

I have a great deal of fondness for them and their approach.

Shall we continue?

You sound pretty intense, as if you are in pain yourself. I'm 65 and have lived to make a whole constellation of mistakes, some of them by design. Be kind and gentle spirited with others and especially your self.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My understanding of "heathen", as it comes from D&C 45:54, 75:22, and 90:10 is that it refers to nations which do not have the gospel. It makes no judgement as to whether they are righteous or wicked, just that they have not had the opportunity to hear the gospel, and hence, will not be held to the standard of nations which have heard the gospel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have never understood statements like these. I have spent almost 50 years in the Church and I have never experienced such things. Either I lead a charmed life (which is almost certainly true), or people see what they expect to see.

When I was younger, more proud, less introspective, and thought that I was absolutely terrific (:lol:), I would look at things that people around me did, and think things along the lines of "Wow, I would NOT want to have to answer for that at the last judgement."

But, as age opened my eyes to my own behavior, I realized that I did a lot of things which, from the perspective of others, would seem just as grievous. :glare:

I realized a couple of things from that. First, when someone else seems to be doing something wrong, maybe they aren't trying to, maybe they don't even realize it. We're all at different levels of self-awareness.

Second, when I do see someone doing something wrong, instead of judging them, my first thought should be "Well, how can I apply that lesson to my life, and make my behavior better?"

When told that one of them would betray the Savior, the Apostles did NOT say "Oh, I bet it's him", or "He's got to be the one." They said "Lord, is it I?" When alerted to sin, our response should be the same. How does that poem go, about arriving in Heaven and being surprised at who was there - when they are all surprised that WE are there? :animatedthumbsup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I was younger, more proud, less introspective, and thought that I was absolutely terrific (:lol:), I would look at things that people around me did, and think things along the lines of "Wow, I would NOT want to have to answer for that at the last judgement."

But, as age opened my eyes to my own behavior, I realized that I did a lot of things which, from the perspective of others, would seem just as grievous. :glare:

I realized a couple of things from that. First, when someone else seems to be doing something wrong, maybe they aren't trying to, maybe they don't even realize it. We're all at different levels of self-awareness.

Second, when I do see someone doing something wrong, instead of judging them, my first thought should be "Well, how can I apply that lesson to my life, and make my behavior better?"

When told that one of them would betray the Savior, the Apostles did NOT say "Oh, I bet it's him", or "He's got to be the one." They said "Lord, is it I?" When alerted to sin, our response should be the same. How does that poem go, about arriving in Heaven and being surprised at who was there - when they are all surprised that WE are there? :animatedthumbsup:

I was brought up in chaos to such an extent that when I left home, I felt that at least now I knew how not to live my life. My X was brought up in Chaos also, but in our ignorance, we set out to make a better life for ourselves and our children.

It was hard because we were seeing life through the lenses of our brokenness. One thing we had though was stubbornness. Though we did not realize it at the time, we were trying to move toward order, goodness, and love but we had no idea that Jesus Christ was the one we needed. So many of the places we sought Jesus Christ only had part of the truth.

Its been 46 years since I was first married. Tragically, it ended at in 2005. While I knew it was not working, I did not know the solution, and I would find out later that my mate had already given up and was having affairs. I like to think that at least all the children were gone and married by then.

I often wonder what it would have been like to have known Jesus Christ before Santa Claus. What would it have been like to pray several times a day? What would it have been like to climb into my Daddy's lap and be called perhaps sweet heart?

What was it like to be baptised at 8 years old and to know that it was something special, not just a swimming lesson? I wonder what it would have felt like to grow up trusting the Elders? By the time, I was a teen, I feared men.

It has been a hard night

I had to be the steadying, protective influence last night. I had to lay there feeling wooden on the floor on an air mattress, while my roomate lay in my bed crying about her BF who'd gotten enraged, and made us both fear violence. Would I have to use the violence laying on the table beside me to stop his violence? It's not the first time I'd faced a perpetrator, and I tire of it. Why should a 65 year old woman be a body guard? When will someone who is flesh and blood be mine?

I have Jesus Christ. In Christ we are not promised a life free of pain and death. We are not promised to avoid his fate. I just hope that when it ends here, that Heavenly Father will love me.

I know that many LDS are thankful for the life they have spent in Jesus Christ. I too am thankful for having known the truth for a while.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share