Church attitude towards Gays.

[JudoMinja]

So you think that you can speak for every single gay person on the planet? That they are all the same and all have the same feelings? That is pretty arrogant and presumptous. I don't think it is fair to put gay people into a one-size-fits-all box, any more than it is to do that to straight people. Simple being of one particular sexual orientation does not give every single person of that orientation the same feelings and thoughts on ANY subject.

I think the reasons Soul listed are fairly expansive, and I highly doubt he's trying to say those are the only reasons or that he is trying to speak for all gays. I'm far more inclined to accept his interpretation of things as they relate to gays and the gay community than I am to accept an interpretation from someone who isn't gay, because he has more experience and understanding with it. So, I have no problem accepting him as a kind of "spokes-person" for the gays, understanding that much of what he shares comes from his own personal experience and that there are likely some who went through similar experiences and don't agree with him.

It's no different than being more willing to accept the word of someone who's been through abuse as speaking for people who've been abused, or the word of someone who's been to the temple as speaking for people who've also been to the temple, etc. Certainly, there are going to be people who don't see things the same way and this individual should not be taken as giving an all-inclusive opinion for everyone who's been through the same thing. But these individuals are far more likely to understand where those with similar backgrounds are coming from and far more likely to be correct in their reasoning as to the mindset of others like themselves than anyone who has not also been through the same or similar experiences.

[RescueMom]

“I’m Christian, unless you’re gay.”

“I’m Christian, unless I’m hotter than you.”

“I’m Christian, unless I’m uglier than you.”

“I’m Christian, unless I found out you cheated on your income taxes.”

“I’m Christian, unless you cut me off in traffic.”

“I’m Christian, unless you fall in love with the person I once fell in love with.”

“I’m Christian, unless you’re that guy who smells like crap on the subway.”

“I’m Christian, unless you’re of a different religion.”

“Oh, but you’re not a sinner? You’re clean, and well dressed, and you have a job? You look the way I think you should look? You act the way I think you should act? You believe the things I think you should believe? Then I’m definitely a Christian. To you, today, I’m a Christian. You’ve earned it.”

When it comes to hating, gossiping, ignoring, ridiculing, holding grudges, or wanting to cause harm, please apply the following:

Stop it!

About all I have to say about it all. As for people entering the CK...I will leave God to be the JUDGE of that...it's not my, or anyone else's job. Period. Regardless of Temple Covenants and Status, we have no idea who will or won't make it to which glory, ever, not our jobs...our jobs and mission in this life is to lead to Christ through the pure love of Christ.

[Soulsearcher]

Judo pretty much sums it up.

[Leah]

I think the reasons Soul listed are fairly expansive, and I highly doubt he's trying to say those are the only reasons or that he is trying to speak for all gays. I'm far more inclined to accept his interpretation of things as they relate to gays and the gay community than I am to accept an interpretation from someone who isn't gay, because he has more experience and understanding with it. So, I have no problem accepting him as a kind of "spokes-person" for the gays, understanding that much of what he shares comes from his own personal experience and that there are likely some who went through similar experiences and don't agree with him.

It's no different than being more willing to accept the word of someone who's been through abuse as speaking for people who've been abused, or the word of someone who's been to the temple as speaking for people who've also been to the temple, etc. Certainly, there are going to be people who don't see things the same way and this individual should not be taken as giving an all-inclusive opinion for everyone who's been through the same thing. But these individuals are far more likely to understand where those with similar backgrounds are coming from and far more likely to be correct in their reasoning as to the mindset of others like themselves than anyone who has not also been through the same or similar experiences.

He may have SOME insight that a heterosexual person does not, but he does not and cannot speak for all gay people. No one can. He can speak for his own experience and offer opinions from that, but no one person is representative/"spokes-person" of an entire demographic, no matter what that demographic is. He made some pretty blanket statements saying "The reason ANY gay.....". That is attempting to speak for an entire demographic and basically saying all gay people are the same. I have no trouble accepting his word for what HE experiences/thinks. I just don't accept that every gay person on the planet desires marriage for x reasons ONLY, any more than if somone made the statement that every straight person on the planet desires marriage for the same (limited) reasons. We are all individuals....gay or straight.....and no two people's experiences/feelings are exactly the same. He is stating that the reasons HE sees for gay people wanting to marry are the same for ALL gay people. I've spoken with enough gay people about the subject to know that that is simply not true.

[Windseeker]

I've spoken with enough gay people about the subject to know that that is simply not true.

As have I. I spent 4 years as a Flight Attendant and shared a rent controlled apartment in Manhattan with 8 gay male Flight Attendants. I found that those who wanted a stable partner and would have been interested in marriage were the very very vocal minority of the homosexual population (At least in Manhattan and among Flight Attendants at that time).

[Soulsearcher]

He may have SOME insight that a heterosexual person does not, but he does not and cannot speak for all gay people. No one can. He can speak for his own experience and offer opinions from that, but no one person is representative/"spokes-person" of an entire demographic, no matter what that demographic is. He made some pretty blanket statements saying "The reason ANY gay.....". That is attempting to speak for an entire demographic and basically saying all gay people are the same. I have no trouble accepting his word for what HE experiences/thinks. I just don't accept that every gay person on the planet desires marriage for x reasons ONLY, any more than if somone made the statement that every straight person on the planet desires marriage for the same (limited) reasons. We are all individuals....gay or straight.....and no two people's experiences/feelings are exactly the same. He is stating that the reasons HE sees for gay people wanting to marry are the same for ALL gay people. I've spoken with enough gay people about the subject to know that that is simply not true.

I'm more than open to your insights. If you can tell me the reasons the people you've talked to wanted to enter into a straight relationship that came with no outside pressure and solely from them just wanting a wife/husband I'd be very interested to hear it. by defenitions gays desire same sex partners, again I'll say i've never met or talked to one who wanted to change with out them feeling they had to for some reason other than they just wanted to. i've heard for religion, to make others happy, our of fear, out of bullying, but i've never heard it's because they just up and decided in a bubble they wanted to be different. Is it possible, yes, i'm sure it is, and you say you've talked to some who say this, so i'd love to expand my knowledge by listening to your insights from your conversations.

[carlimac]

I'm more than open to your insights. If you can tell me the reasons the people you've talked to wanted to enter into a straight relationship that came with no outside pressure and solely from them just wanting a wife/husband I'd be very interested to hear it. by defenitions gays desire same sex partners, again I'll say i've never met or talked to one who wanted to change with out them feeling they had to for some reason other than they just wanted to. i've heard for religion, to make others happy, our of fear, out of bullying, but i've never heard it's because they just up and decided in a bubble they wanted to be different. Is it possible, yes, i'm sure it is, and you say you've talked to some who say this, so i'd love to expand my knowledge by listening to your insights from your conversations.[/quote

When someone has a deep religious conviction, the desire to have a traditional family (husband, wife, kids) isn't "outside pressure" as you describe. It is a sincere and very deeply felt desire to live the way God wants us to...because there is a very real reward that goes way beyond satisfying the immediate physical desire. It is as real and intrinsic as possible to that person. They genuinely WANT to marry someone of the opposite sex.

You view it and describe it negatively as "pressure" probably because it falls outside your own belief system. It seems from what you write that you just can't accept that there are other reasons to marry someone of the opposite gender besides this physical attraction.

In the same way, we could say that society is putting unnatural "outside pressure" on people with SGA to form relationships with their same gender AND also heterosexuals to have illicit sex when they aren't married and affairs when they are.

I agree with Leah. Who is to say what anyone else really wants or what their motivation is to marry or form relationships of any kind. I'm not a hetero spokesperson any more than you are a gay spokes person. To say gays don't want to marry the opposite sex is another one of those generalizations you're famous for.

[Soulsearcher]

I'm more than open to your insights. If you can tell me the reasons the people you've talked to wanted to enter into a straight relationship that came with no outside pressure and solely from them just wanting a wife/husband I'd be very interested to hear it. by defenitions gays desire same sex partners, again I'll say i've never met or talked to one who wanted to change with out them feeling they had to for some reason other than they just wanted to. i've heard for religion, to make others happy, our of fear, out of bullying, but i've never heard it's because they just up and decided in a bubble they wanted to be different. Is it possible, yes, i'm sure it is, and you say you've talked to some who say this, so i'd love to expand my knowledge by listening to your insights from your conversations.[/quote

When someone has a deep religious conviction, the desire to have a traditional family (husband, wife, kids) isn't "outside pressure" as you describe. It is a sincere and very deeply felt desire to live the way God wants us to...because there is a very real reward that goes way beyond satisfying the immediate physical desire. It is as real and intrinsic as possible to that person. They genuinely WANT to marry someone of the opposite sex.

You view it and describe it negatively as "pressure" probably because it falls outside your own belief system. It seems from what you write that you just can't accept that there are other reasons to marry someone of the opposite gender besides this physical attraction.

In the same way, we could say that society is putting unnatural "outside pressure" on people with SGA to form relationships with their same gender AND also heterosexuals to have illicit sex when they aren't married and affairs when they are.

I agree with Leah. Who is to say what anyone else really wants or what their motivation is to marry or form relationships of any kind. I'm not a hetero spokesperson any more than you are a gay spokes person. To say gays don't want to marry the opposite sex is another one of those generalizations you're famous for.

I never said the pressure was negative and you can view it in a negative way if you desire, maybe the term "outside motivation" would work better for you. that being said you proved my point. They do it for religion which as i've said many times i can respect and will support them if that's what they truly desire. I view it as pressure because when i was going through it, it was pressure, and that's even when it was my belief system. I can see no reason to marry someone you lack a full connection with, it seems to be setting it up for issues that you really don't need to be starting with. attraction is one aspect of a relationship, but it helps build a stronger relationship. "Sorry dear i kind of love you but the thought of touching you makes me sick" doesn't seem like a good or healthy way to enter into an eternal contract, which again the church supports. unless the person has rid themselves completely of the desires and can be attracted to the possible spouse " the church actually uses the word attraction and sets it as a condition for these marriages, as shown in the quote you provided) then the church it's self says these marriages are not good.

How is it a generalization to say gays want to be with people of their own gender, that is what same sex relationships are. As who's to say, i can speak for me and can relay the stories and thoughts of a vast number of people who speak on this topic. Out of the thousands of gays i've talked to over the last few years I've never encountered one who said they had a desire to just marry someone of the opposite gender just for the sake of it. they have said it's been for religion, to make others happy, to hide, be cause they are afraid, because they are forced into it, but not just because they want to marry someone they aren't attracted to. This has come from mormons, catholics, jews, muslims, pagans, atheists, agnostics, from americans, canadians, british, french, russian, chinese, japanese, people from all over the middle east and south america and more. I'm not claiming to be a spokesman, I'm passing on the thoughts and feelings i hear daily as well as my personal experiences. I'm not sure why you can be presented with so much and still say it's nothing, that you know better than then people actually in the position. I present your comments to people inside the gay community as well as the LDS community and it leaves people very confused on how someone just doesn't get what gay is and the hows and why's. It's almost like i have to invite all the people i've talked to or who's stories i've read to this forum so you might understand that i'm not just pulling things out of thin air and i might understand where these comments come from instead of just making things up because i want to stir things up( i won't invite them because it just wouldn't go well). at which point might it seem like i know something about this topic that others outside of it might just be guessing at? Honestly it's really like me saying i understand the church in all aspects better than you, including the temple(which i've never attended), would you really expect people to take my word over yours on intricate details of doctrine or would it be better from someone who lives the life and has the experiences to actually know whats what?

[pntkl]

The Church's beginnings are with the Head of the Body, which is our Savior. Even if those in attendance including all members and those in callings of authority were to disregard truthful teachings to hush murmurings; it wouldn't change their truths. The Son of God is Authority of all Church doctrine, even when keys are held by those called. Properly understood, if all men were to be averse to women or women to men; all reproduction would be artificial and vain. Being well aware of how controversial this topic is, the following is not for offense. However, it is certain to be for some, so take note, before reading further, as this would be an appropriate stopping point if this applies to you, or if you are not an adult.

It is a beauty to behold, to be one gender with the other, to make even a single one, from intertwined flesh. The natural course, the overwhelming affinity, is man towards the woman and vice versa--from the beginning of every spirit's walk. What has already been written, concerning this matter, it is for most part sufficiently spoken, however, I will speak plainly:

Marriage is sacred. To fornicate outside of it, that is adultery; not exclusively restricted to homosexuality or heterosexuality, but inclusive of both. Those under its grasps, by either side, is to be found in delusion that selfish desires could be acceptable, by my Father, who is yours also. For what is taken from intercourse, however pleasurable to those in desire thereof, pleasure alone is not for what it is purposed. Two are to become as one, not simply in reference to a single act of bonding, but ultimately to procreation, even all the acts proceeding after it. With either orientation; neither can provide for that purpose, outside of a Holy marriage--that which is an eternal marriage, one which is under God. Even Temple marriages may be found in contempt, if their coupling lacks our Father's approval.

Everyone builds up a family, no matter their orientation, out of what comes from a man, and becomes familiar in a woman. Two becoming one, without both being intertwined in unbridled desire, that is to lack a better half of His plan for those otherwise capable of conceiving naturally, with their partner in upbringing. It is an undue hardship on those little ones, to force upon them your choices that are of no requisite basis in the natural order. The mettle of a child is not the same as a parent's; no matter how much behavior modification is attempted. The dominant male can only sympathize with that for which he knows. The dominant female on the other hand, she is by and large found beside the man, gifted with a more empathetic stature. Nonetheless, both can be found less than forgiving, regarding those put into the middle of things they ought not be placed.

A father and a mother are both intrinsically purposed, in each their own unique ways, both providing special instruction that benefits their offspring's survival of this world and inevitably the spiritual. Insomuch that a child is offensively robbed, when one, the other, or both are willingly and unnecessarily absent for the needs of the child. There are traits passed down, for each part of the cord; to deprive them of either knowledges therein is wholly offensive to that child. Some parts cannot be simply given by proxy; they are passed down the line, in physical and spiritual sight of the vine.

Rejecting this design is forbidden. However, more importantly, there is great admiration deserved by those that do recognize their errs, so as to be repentant of them. As couples, we are to multiply and provide for all the needs of our children, to the best of our abilities; as mother and father, when both are alive, capable, and worthy [exclusions include abusers or rapists]--that is our Father in heaven's edict. Do not think that your desires are greater than that of the purposes intended of this life. However, even if adultery is forbidden, it no part warrants a spiritual death, murder, physical or verbal abuse, or unrighteous claims of dominion, in this division of your life, or the next . Even a murderer may be found recompensed with grace, which is most difficult. As for adultery, oh how much less is their cost, than for one that would recompense their acts or would take on another's sin, in the act of murder [absent blasphemy of the Spirit, which is always one's own].

Taking stock in what our foreordained purposes are, one must accept that an artificial companionship is unbecoming of those profess our Creator has a Grand Design. The design thereof was not made for great want of the self-indulgent. The greatest care is for replenishment, for mankind, and their offspring. In cases of assisted conception, it is found in exception to those in Holy marriage, that are incapable of doing so naturally. It is only within the parameters of this design, that we are nominally within the gospel of His Son. My words, proceeding from our Father, they are part of an epistle: turn from any wicked wantonness within, as He assembles the Host, which marches on and tramples the wicked.

Love,

T.J. Wood

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Beware of Pride

“The proud wish God would agree with them. They are not interested in changing their opinions to agree with God's.” - Ezra Taft Benson

“We are sending you out as artists, scientists, teachers and philosophers. Will you never forget the theme of the lesson we are talking about, that you are but branches of a divine tree and that of yourself you can do nothing? All truths, whether called science or religion, or philosophy, come from a divine source.... You then, I plead with you, do not in your search for truth, allow yourselves to become severed from the 'vine.' In all your learning, measure it and test it by the white light of truth revealed to the prophet of God and you will never be led astray.” - Harold Bingham Lee

Doctrine and Covenants 68:25-28 

“I believe I am safe in saying that the most earnest desire of every true Latter-day Saint is that his children may grow up in the nurture and the admonition of the Gospel, keeping the commandments of God, so that they may be saved in His kingdom. It is simply absurd to imagine that if a child has the seed of falsehood and evil sown in its mind through life, you will all at once be able to sow in that mind one crop of truth and have it bring forth a harvest of truth. ... We would look upon a farmer as a natural born idiot who would call upon everybody who passed his farm to throw in a few seeds of weeds, to do this for a period of twenty-one years, and then expect he could sow a crop of grain and expect to get a good harvest.

I may know the multiplication table, and my wife may also, but I cannot on that account expect my children to be born with a knowledge of the multiplication table in their heads. I may know that the Gospel is true, and my wife may know it; but I do not imagine for one moment that my children will be born with this knowledge. We receive a testimony of the Gospel by obeying the laws and ordinances thereof; and our children will receive that knowledge exactly the same way; and if we do not teach them, and they do not walk in the straight and narrow path that leads to eternal life, they will never receive this knowledge.

I have heard people say that their children were born heirs to all the promises of the new and everlasting covenant, and that they would grow up in spite of themselves, with a knowledge of the Gospel. I want to say to you that this is not a true doctrine, and it is in direct opposition to the commandment of our Heavenly Father. We find that it is laid down to the Latter-day Saints, not as an entreaty, but as a law, that they should teach their children [the gospel].” - Heber Jeddy Grant

[carlimac]

To Soulsearcher:

"How is it a generalization to say gays want to be with people of their own gender"

That isn't what you said. You said, "Gays don't want to marry women." Well, some do. They may be attracted to men but they deeply desire a marriage to a woman. And why could they not have a full connection with that woman? As has been illustrated by many of these marriages, an attraction to the same gender (an attraction that isn't fed and fostered continuously) and a healthy robust love for ones spouse can co-exist in a marriage. Most gays say it's impossible and that the guy is lying to his wife and himself. And you give lip service to your support of these marriages, but your attitude (synicism) is seeping between the lines.

I suggest you read the books by Ty Mansfield. DeseretBook.com - Voices of Hope Look up and research these successful marriages. I read about one last night where the guy said he wouldn't change a thing and he is very happy. It's obviously not as easy as a marriage where this particular challenge doesn't exist, but there are many who are willing to make every effort to minimize the SGA aspect of their lives and go into a hetero marriage 100%. There are TONS of challenges in marriage. The attraction factor is just one. Men and women being tempted to have an affair with the opposite gender outside of marriage is just as strong. It's simply a matter of not letting it happen. I've been attracted by tons of men outside my marriage. Do I dwell on it and say, It's natural and I just can't help myself and I'm not fully connected to my husband and this marriage is doomed to fail and I'm being pressured by my religion to stay in my marriage? No. That kind of attitude represents the falacy of the whole LGBT agenda.

Edited April 25, 2012 by carlimac

[circusboy01]

pntkl

I don't understand this statement. " Even Temple marriages may be found in contempt, if their coupling lack our Fathers approval."

I don't see how the coupling of a man and woman who have been married, to each other, in the Temple, could ever lack our Fathers approval.

This is not a challenge to the statement. I just, genuinely, don't understand. Perhaps I'm reading it wrong. Brother Ray

[pntkl]

Don't worry, it is by the Spirit, that those seeking understanding are offered it:

Doctrine and Covenants 132:1-47 

Verse 18 specifically speaks of this matter. There are more scriptures; this is just a hurried reply.

Love,

Brother Wood

[carlimac]

pntkl

I don't understand this statement. " Even Temple marriages may be found in contempt, if their coupling lack our Fathers approval."

I don't see how the coupling of a man and woman who have been married, to each other, in the Temple, could ever lack our Fathers approval.

This is not a challenge to the statement. I just, genuinely, don't understand. Perhaps I'm reading it wrong. Brother Ray

There are many ways to offend the spirit in marital intimacy, even within the bounds of a temple marriage. It's really not "anything goes".

[circusboy01]

Don't worry, it is by the Spirit, that those seeking understanding are offered it:

Doctrine and Covenants 132:1-47*

Verse 18 specifically speaks of this matter. There are more scriptures; this is just a hurried reply.

Love,

Brother Wood

Thank you I will read and ponder DC 1323:1-47 Brother Ray

[Soulsearcher]

To Soulsearcher:

"How is it a generalization to say gays want to be with people of their own gender"

That isn't what you said. You said, "Gays don't want to marry women." Well, some do. They may be attracted to men but they deeply desire a marriage to a woman. And why could they not have a full connection with that woman? As has been illustrated by many of these marriages, an attraction to the same gender (an attraction that isn't fed and fostered continuously) and a healthy robust love for ones spouse can co-exist in a marriage. Most gays say it's impossible and that the guy is lying to his wife and himself. And you give lip service to your support of these marriages, but your attitude (synicism) is seeping between the lines.

I suggest you read the books by Ty Mansfield. DeseretBook.com - Voices of Hope Look up and research these successful marriages. I read about one last night where the guy said he wouldn't change a thing and he is very happy. It's obviously not as easy as a marriage where this particular challenge doesn't exist, but there are many who are willing to make every effort to minimize the SGA aspect of their lives and go into a hetero marriage 100%. There are TONS of challenges in marriage. The attraction factor is just one. Men and women being tempted to have an affair with the opposite gender outside of marriage is just as strong. It's simply a matter of not letting it happen. I've been attracted by tons of men outside my marriage. Do I dwell on it and say, It's natural and I just can't help myself and I'm not fully connected to my husband and this marriage is doomed to fail and I'm being pressured by my religion to stay in my marriage? No. That kind of attitude represents the falacy of the whole LGBT agenda.

I've read about these marriages, probably a great deal more than you. Less than 10% work. Less than 10% isn't a success story, it's not something you want to keep inflicting on people. You say that gays say the men are lying and paying lip service. Have you ever wondered why we say it, where it comes from? I once gave you a link to a woman who had went through this, you blew her off but there were dozens of links on her blog from mormon women who'd been through this and more links on each of those blogs and so on. These are faithful of your faith who have went through this and are telling you how wrong you are. While you tend to look at random success stories like the book you keep holding up as you shining example you ignore the thousands of articles, personal accounts and horror stories that show just how far from reality you live. You keep saying things like attraction really isn't important, but your own leaders have said it's the first requirement for this type of marriage. You laugh at experience and knowledge from people who have lived it because you don't like the facts. I'm sorry that the world doesn't run like you want it to, and i'm sorry you think there's an agenda to keep gays from being straight, but really it's an agenda to keep people safe and i'm amazed christ wants people harmed rather than just listening to the truth of what's really going on. You say there are many who are willing but you don't know why they do it. I've talked to them, hundreds if not thousands, i've lived it, and yet you say you know better, so give me your sources. Give me this vast network of gays who want to marry for nothing more than desire to be with a woman. i want to read of this vast number of people who say this and read every one of their stories, because i've read some of them and again most have either a religious motivation or they end up defaulting back. Every story i've looked up and read on the subject is linked to a faith based site and you'd be surprised how many of the names on those site i find on other sites saying it was all a horrible lie and they wish they'd never attempted it. So please, please show me this wealth of proof and experiences so i can see what i've been missing in my years of searching, because i searched long and hard before i came out for exactly this kind of proof and support to help me along and it was always lacking substance.

[circusboy01]

There are many ways to offend the spirit in marital intimacy, even within the bounds of a temple marriage. It's really not "anything goes".

Okay I understand, now, what the statement is saying. There are certain things that should not be done, especially things that have nothing to do with creating life.

Thank you Brother Ray

[annewandering]

Okay I understand, now, what the statement is saying. There are certain things that should not be done, especially things that have nothing to do with creating life.

Thank you Brother Ray

But that is a whole nother topic of which there is a thread on the adult section about. ^^

[PeterVenkman]

I think encouraging gay people to marry into heterosexual relationships destroys the institution of marriage because it requires them to maintain a type of relationship that many LDS admit is not what marriage should be about.

[annewandering]

We dont 'admit' its not not what marriage should be about. Not exactly a crime is it.

[circusboy01]

But that is a whole nother topic of which there is a thread on the adult section about. ^^

Isn't the statement forbidding Oral copulation, and Sodomy? are you saying there's more ? Brother Ray

[circusboy01]

I think encouraging gay people to marry into heterosexual relationships destroys the institution of marriage because it requires them to maintain a type of relationship that many LDS admit is not what marriage should be about.

I'm not an authority. These are just my thoughts on the subject. When a gay person joins the church, perhaps there will be some who will try to encourage them into a heterosexual marriage. But it is not necessary. As long as they are strong members of the Church. Pay an honest tithe, Obey the Word of Wisdom Sustain the Prophet, and all those in authority above them, keep themselves morally, and physically clean. The same that is expected of all members. Just like others in the church who don't marry, if their worthy, They will be able to choose a mate in the spirit world Brother Ray

[carlimac]

I've read about these marriages, probably a great deal more than you. Less than 10% work. Less than 10% isn't a success story, it's not something you want to keep inflicting on people. You say that gays say the men are lying and paying lip service. Have you ever wondered why we say it, where it comes from? I once gave you a link to a woman who had went through this, you blew her off but there were dozens of links on her blog from mormon women who'd been through this and more links on each of those blogs and so on. These are faithful of your faith who have went through this and are telling you how wrong you are. While you tend to look at random success stories like the book you keep holding up as you shining example you ignore the thousands of articles, personal accounts and horror stories that show just how far from reality you live. You keep saying things like attraction really isn't important, but your own leaders have said it's the first requirement for this type of marriage. You laugh at experience and knowledge from people who have lived it because you don't like the facts. I'm sorry that the world doesn't run like you want it to, and i'm sorry you think there's an agenda to keep gays from being straight, but really it's an agenda to keep people safe and i'm amazed christ wants people harmed rather than just listening to the truth of what's really going on. You say there are many who are willing but you don't know why they do it. I've talked to them, hundreds if not thousands, i've lived it, and yet you say you know better, so give me your sources. Give me this vast network of gays who want to marry for nothing more than desire to be with a woman. i want to read of this vast number of people who say this and read every one of their stories, because i've read some of them and again most have either a religious motivation or they end up defaulting back. Every story i've looked up and read on the subject is linked to a faith based site and you'd be surprised how many of the names on those site i find on other sites saying it was all a horrible lie and they wish they'd never attempted it. So please, please show me this wealth of proof and experiences so i can see what i've been missing in my years of searching, because i searched long and hard before i came out for exactly this kind of proof and support to help me along and it was always lacking substance.

I have never ever said I have a wealth of knowledge about people with SGA marrying straights. You know far more about it than I do. I said specifically that I've read of a few. And that proves it is possible. I've cited the main source of my info several times. Ty Mansfield. New book out called "Voices" or something like that. I haven't read it but have read reviews. All 5 star. I've never blown off anyone who has ended up in a horrific divorce situation UNLESS it's obvious that the husband turning out gay wasn't the only problem with their alignment with LDS gospel principles in the first place. I remember reading quite awhile back parts of a blog where the woman in the failed marriage was so bitter and blasphemous against church leaders that I chose to quit reading it. THAT isn't how Christ would have anyone react no matter how bad things turned out. I have never disagreed with the leaders of the Church on anything I've ever said. I've quoted them. I'm in complete agreement with their statements. But their statements don't ever include that 10% figure you keep tossing out there to prove something. And yes attraction is important but it isn't the only aspect of a successful marriage. I don't recall in the stuff I've read that physical and romantic attraction is the first and most important part of a marriage- gay or otherwise. If you can quote a general authority on that, I'll take another look and think about it. Here is another example from queerty ( and I have to qualify that I don't spend tme on this website. It just popped up when I googled Ty Mansfield.)

"I really don’t understand gay men who get so worked up over the way someone else lives their life. I will be the first to admit that many gay men who enter heterosexual relationships are not able to make those marriages work. However, just because some men can’t doesn’t mean that no men can. Some men can’t run a mile in under 5 minutes. It seems pretty ridiculous that I would claim that anyone trying to get his time under 5 min is wasting his life or attempting the impossible.

I I am a gay man in a heterosexual marriage. My wife knows about my attractions to men, but in the end there is a lot more to a marriage than sex. (Don’t get me wrong, we have a very fulfilling sex life) I chose to get married to my wife because I loved her. That didn’t mean that I wasn’t attracted to other people once we tied the knot. But I made a commitment to her to stay with her and build our marriage. We’ve had our share of struggles and I’ve made my share of mistakes, but we are still totally in love with each other. We are so tightly connected. And guess what? I’m really, really happy. I’ve got no complaints about my life right now. Sure, I believed some people who said that God was real and that He has a plan for each of us to be happy. I believed that. I chose to follow that plan. And it worked. I’m happy. I wouldn’t trade my life for anything.

I get really tired of the way some people try to portray sexual orientation as distict groups. It’s absurd. All people or capable of develping romantic and sexual feelings for any other individual or object. Study learning psychology. It happens. It’s not always something a person chooses (in fact it rarely is). Those feelings come more naturally toward some people than others, and are definitely genetic predispositions built into each of us. But the idea that sexual orientation is something we are just born with is not only ridiculous, it’s been proven incorrect by science time and time again.

Maybe this guy is really able to feel a deep love and compassion for his fiancee. Maybe he loves spending time withher and being close to her. Maybe he still finds some guys attractive. Who can really know what’s going on? I know that I really don’t like people to force their values on me, and I sure as **** don’t want to force my values on someone else."

Full story here: Gay Mormon Ty Mansfield Is Getting Married! To a Woman / Queerty

There! Two success stories. Two men with SGA who committed to their hetero marriage. I'm not making this up. And the law of averages would let us know that there are probably many many other successful marriages where one has SGA. I'm just not lucky enough to happen upon the only two that exist. And by the way, Mr Mansfield is married and they now have a son.

Edited April 26, 2012 by carlimac

[carlimac]

Here is another:

Truly Happy Now

Three! Woo Hoo!

[Soulsearcher]

I have never ever said I have a wealth of knowledge about people with SGA marrying straights. You know far more about it than I do. I said specifically that I've read of a few. And that proves it is possible. I've cited the main source of my info several times. Ty Mansfield. New book out called "Voices" or something like that. I haven't read it but have read reviews. All 5 star. I've never blown off anyone who has ended up in a horrific divorce situation UNLESS it's obvious that the husband turning out gay wasn't the only problem with their alignment with LDS gospel principles in the first place. I remember reading quite awhile back parts of a blog where the woman in the failed marriage was so bitter and blasphemous against church leaders that I chose to quit reading it. THAT isn't how Christ would have anyone react no matter how bad things turned out. I have never disagreed with the leaders of the Church on anything I've ever said. I've quoted them. I'm in complete agreement with their statements. But their statements don't ever include that 10% figure you keep tossing out there to prove something. And yes attraction is important but it isn't the only aspect of a successful marriage. I don't recall in the stuff I've read that physical and romantic attraction is the first and most important part of a marriage- gay or otherwise. If you can quote a general authority on that, I'll take another look and think about it. Here is another example from queerty ( and I have to qualify that I don't spend tme on this website. It just popped up when I googled Ty Mansfield.)

"I really don’t understand gay men who get so worked up over the way someone else lives their life. I will be the first to admit that many gay men who enter heterosexual relationships are not able to make those marriages work. However, just because some men can’t doesn’t mean that no men can. Some men can’t run a mile in under 5 minutes. It seems pretty ridiculous that I would claim that anyone trying to get his time under 5 min is wasting his life or attempting the impossible.

I I am a gay man in a heterosexual marriage. My wife knows about my attractions to men, but in the end there is a lot more to a marriage than sex. (Don’t get me wrong, we have a very fulfilling sex life) I chose to get married to my wife because I loved her. That didn’t mean that I wasn’t attracted to other people once we tied the knot. But I made a commitment to her to stay with her and build our marriage. We’ve had our share of struggles and I’ve made my share of mistakes, but we are still totally in love with each other. We are so tightly connected. And guess what? I’m really, really happy. I’ve got no complaints about my life right now. Sure, I believed some people who said that God was real and that He has a plan for each of us to be happy. I believed that. I chose to follow that plan. And it worked. I’m happy. I wouldn’t trade my life for anything.

I get really tired of the way some people try to portray sexual orientation as distict groups. It’s absurd. All people or capable of develping romantic and sexual feelings for any other individual or object. Study learning psychology. It happens. It’s not always something a person chooses (in fact it rarely is). Those feelings come more naturally toward some people than others, and are definitely genetic predispositions built into each of us. But the idea that sexual orientation is something we are just born with is not only ridiculous, it’s been proven incorrect by science time and time again.

Maybe this guy is really able to feel a deep love and compassion for his fiancee. Maybe he loves spending time withher and being close to her. Maybe he still finds some guys attractive. Who can really know what’s going on? I know that I really don’t like people to force their values on me, and I sure as **** don’t want to force my values on someone else."

Full story here: Gay Mormon Ty Mansfield Is Getting Married! To a Woman / Queerty

There! Two success stories. Two men with SGA who committed to their hetero marriage. I'm not making this up. And the law of averages would let us know that there are probably many many other successful marriages where one has SGA. I'm just not lucky enough to happen upon the only two that exist. And by the way, Mr Mansfield is married and they now have a son.

you posted the quote yourself from Elder oaks saying attraction must be present for there even to be a consideration of a gay marrying into a straight marriage. It must be there according to leaders. Also I've never said it's impossible, but i have said that there are more who enter into these marriages for the wrong reasons and that I've never found any one who did enter into one with no other reason than they want a woman, being the thought alone disgusts most gays i've ever talked to or read comments from. Suggesting it's possible is one thing, but you seem to not think it's a great grand idea and keep trumpeting it and yet as you've said you found a few example against tons telling the other side of the story. the blog you stopped reading told a lot from both sides of the perspective and her anger came not only from current stances but the fact her hubby entered into the marriage because of pressure due to religion and the need to conform. You might not like the comments but it's the truth of the matter and sometimes we have to read things we don't like to get more of the truth vs the few shining flag bearers that show a huge minority.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Soulsearcher

[carlimac]

Church response to the question of marriage:

“Marriage should not be viewed as a therapeutic step to solve problems such as homosexual inclinations or practices.” To me that means that we are not going to stand still to put at risk daughters of God who would enter into such marriages under false pretenses or under a cloud unknown to them. Persons who have this kind of challenge that they cannot control could not enter marriage in good faith.

On the other hand, persons who have 1) cleansed themselves of any transgression and 2) who have shown their ability to deal with these feelings or inclinations and put them in the background, and 3) feel a great attraction for a daughter of God and therefore desire to enter marriage and have children and enjoy the blessings of eternity — that’s a situation when marriage would be appropriate.

President Hinckley said that marriage is not a therapeutic step to solve problems."

This is from an interview with Elder Oaks. Can't find the year. I added bold and numbers to emphasize a few things.

Attraction was #3.