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annewandering

Girl told to leave Prom over dress

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It is better she strikes out at a wrong than going home and internalizing it.

I'm still trying to figure out how she was wronged.

Is it because someone was 'snotty' to her? Is it because the dance had rules and they shouldn't have applied to her because she was from somewhere else?

:confused:

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I'm still trying to figure out how she was wronged.

Is it because someone was 'snotty' to her? Is it because the dance had rules and they shouldn't have applied to her because she was from somewhere else?

:confused:

I'll be honest, I'm inclined to take a description of snotty with a grain of salt. It may be a justified description, but I can easily see someone being firm and unapologetic about the rules being termed snotty by quite a few teens. Also considering the whole: Teen + went to the news + some of the comments in the article equation that she was copping an attitude that got reflected back at her wouldn't surprise me.

Edited by Dravin

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I'm relieved there was a dress code for modesty at a High School

I'm relieved that the faculty enforced it

I saw her dress...not only was it "off the shoulder;" but, quite short as well

Apparently the dress code was well publicized and they had plenty of opportunity to know beforehand this was the standard

Hooray for "snottiness!"

In Arizona it's a law that kids cannot wear the American flag to school out of fear of offending those of other cultures. This is a dress code that bugs me to no end.

Hooray again for "snottiness"

Dove

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In Arizona it's a law that kids cannot wear the American flag to school out of fear of offending those of other cultures. This is a dress code that bugs me to no end.

Dove

Huh? Did they teach in that school that Arizona is in America?

Okay, in the Philippines, it is against the law to wear the Philippine flag unless as a representative of the country (like in the military or at Olympics). It's a "respect the flag" kind of thing.

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Wow. That dress is over-the-top modest compared to some dresses I've seen going to proms. It must be a Utah County thing.

That said- my own daughters would never choose to wear that dress- nor would we let them. They prefer to cover up more.

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While I do agree that the young woman should be covered, I think that in the future more effort to prevent such a thing should happen. Perhaps a large sign at the entrance to the Prom would be a first step. I'm actually surprised that revealing any more of one's body than the garments would is acceptable. I'm also very surprised that a Mormon woman would wear a bikini out on the lake.

This from a woman that is still unused to life as not Muslim.

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While I do agree that the young woman should be covered, I think that in the future more effort to prevent such a thing should happen. Perhaps a large sign at the entrance to the Prom would be a first step. I'm actually surprised that revealing any more of one's body than the garments would is acceptable. I'm also very surprised that a Mormon woman would wear a bikini out on the lake.

This from a woman that is still unused to life as not Muslim.

I'm sure it's a big change for you. After spending the afternoon with my son in an orientation meeting for his semester abroad in Jerusalem, and hearing all the dress code information and why it's important for that part of the world, it made me realize that even LDS members are pretty liberal in dress standards. It would be so much easier on so many girls' self image if they were absolutely required to wear only loose clothing that covered head to toe. Sometimes I wish we were Amish. I wouldn't go so far as to wish I were Muslim mostly because the whole outfit seems hot- as in sweaty hot, not fashionable hot.

I'm always a bit surprised when Mormon women wear bikinis and revelaing clothing, too. I'm wondering which part of the modesty talk we give girls in Young Women's they don't get. It's pretty straight forward and clear what is acceptable and what isn't. Some of my own neices are pretty blatantly disregarding the guidelines. Makes me sad.

Edited by carlimac

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Honestly, I never would have thought to ask about the school's dress code. If the school wanted to enforce it at prom, it should have been printed on the ticket for guests. I would have assumed that most girls just wore sleeves because of the strong LDS presence in the area, not because of any dress code. Of course, I'm from the east coast. I don't know where a girl could find a cute prom dress with sleeves (looked online, and I think they're butt ugly), so I just didn't go to prom. This girl seems to have done the best she could, in her and her parents' opinions, to dress modestly. The school waited until she was at the dance to advertise their dress code to guests. They should have been more responsible.

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I'm sure it's a big change for you. After spending the afternoon with my son in an orientation meeting for his semester abroad in Jerusalem, and hearing all the dress code information and why it's important for that part of the world, it made me realize that even LDS members are pretty liberal in dress standards. It would be so much easier on so many girls' self image if they were absolutely required to wear only loose clothing that covered head to toe. Sometimes I wish we were Amish. I wouldn't go so far as to wish I were Muslim mostly because the whole outfit seems hot- as in sweaty hot, not fashionable hot.

I'm always a bit surprised when Mormon women wear bikinis and revelaing clothing, too. I'm wondering which part of the modesty talk we give girls in Young Women's they don't get. It's pretty straight forward and clear what is acceptable and what isn't. Some of my own neices are pretty blatantly disregarding the guidelines. Makes me sad.

Muslim clothing is not hot because of use of breathable fabrics and also the shade created by the clothing reduces solar heating.

NO, you do not wish to be Amish, please tell me you do not? I lived in Mid West for a year, and got to go to New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Iowa, and all that. There are just lots of Amish there. My stepfather was Amish and tried to force his beliefs on the family in a very frightening, and hostile way, so when I was in the Mid West, I made it a point to scrutinize the Amish in the hope of making sense of his ways.

They are very isolationist, and their primary language is a form of German. It is very hard to get to know them because even visiting their shops and fruit stands, I never saw one smile. I do however know a few people who have Amish friends and they say that they are lovely people.

In spite of not being Muslim any more, I still dress pretty much Muslim because I am comfortable, and feel secure.

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Muslim clothing is not hot because of use of breathable fabrics and also the shade created by the clothing reduces solar heating.

NO, you do not wish to be Amish, please tell me you do not? I lived in Mid West for a year, and got to go to New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Iowa, and all that. There are just lots of Amish there. My stepfather was Amish and tried to force his beliefs on the family in a very frightening, and hostile way, so when I was in the Mid West, I made it a point to scrutinize the Amish in the hope of making sense of his ways.

They are very isolationist, and their primary language is a form of German. It is very hard to get to know them because even visiting their shops and fruit stands, I never saw one smile. I do however know a few people who have Amish friends and they say that they are lovely people.

In spite of not being Muslim any more, I still dress pretty much Muslim because I am comfortable, and feel secure.

I've been interested in and studied the Amish for 20 yrs. One of my first exposures to them was visiting an Amish bakery in their home out in upstate New York. It was a delightful experience and the women there were very open and friendly. I watched as some of the teen girls worked in the kitchen. Their motions were fluid, their smiles bright and their expertice at what they were doing was mesmerizing. I've loved their quilts (the authentic Amish ones in solid colors- not so much the ones they make to sell commercially to the "English") and their industrious lifestyles. It's their simplicity that I'm drawn to.

But recently, I lived in the midwest for over a decade and had closer look. While they are charming to look at from a distance, it made me sad that the ones we visited and saw were so poor and uneducated. Their youth were missing teeth and could barely communicate with us. They had lots of health problems in our part of the state. That sort of shot my idealized view of their culture. And I know there is a very strict male enforcement of the rules. So that part of their lifestyle I wouldn't want. It's just their industriousness and lack of worldly distractions that I admire. (I'm a computer addict and get far less done than if I had never had one in my home.) I believe there are other groups of Amish that are better off than the ones I saw frequently near where I lived. Better organized in communities and more resources as a group. The ones where I lived seemed poverty stricken.

Edited by carlimac

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My experience with them could have been clouded by the fact that I was Muslim woman, so my appearance to them might have been even more off putting than regular "Englishers". Many people thought I was Catholic Nun, and after a while rather than disabuse people of the notion, I just said, "Bless you my child" and went on my way.

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It is a bit surprising to me that it would be possible to have a Prom in Utah where all the girls were not aware of certain standards of decency. How can this happen? I think even a two strap, bare shoulder, above the knee dress is not acceptable. However, I must admit that some who know me say that my conservative standards now are owing to my very wild, very far distant past.

Several times I have heard church authorities say that members should not stand out from the general public in their appearance. So now I am wondering how 65 year old woman whose figure has sagged would look in bikini top and mini skirt? :o This I have seen in the city.

I wonder if it is time if we said, enough, and brought our standards back to what Heavenly Father sees as acceptable?

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I looked at that dress and weighed in my mind whether it was modest or not.

To my mind came the words of President Spencer W. Kimball given to BYU students called "A style of our own".

To quote him, the Lord would have pronounced such a dress as "Abominable" in his sight.

Modesty is something very important to me and in who I seek to marry.

I do feel sorry for the girl, not because she was chastised for her appearance but because she either does not understand why her dress was immodest or because she does know but doesn't care.

Outer Appearance and Inner Beauty

President David O. McKay

“Yes, men are attracted by beauty, and thousands are ensnared by it. There are thousands of men who look for nothing else and who desire nothing else but to have their senses pleased or their passions gratified. These outward adornments will satisfy and only outward adornment will retain. When beauty fades, the passion seeks for gratification elsewhere. ‘Beauty is only skin-deep,’ and when outward adornment is all a girl possesses, the admiration she calls forth is even more shallow than her beauty. . . .

“But there is a beauty every girl has—a gift from God, as pure as the sunlight, and as sacred as life. It is a beauty that all men love, a virtue that wins all men’s souls. That beauty is chastity. Chastity without skin beauty may enkindle the soul; skin beauty without chastity can kindle only the eye. Chastity enshrined in the mold of true womanhood will hold true love eternally” ( Gospel Ideals, 450).

Edited by Martain

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To quote him, the Lord would have pronounced such a dress as "Abominable" in his sight.

Modesty is something very important to me and in who I seek to marry.

I do feel sorry for the girl, not because she was chastised for her appearance but because she either does not understand why her dress was immodest or because she does know but doesn't care.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Oh, come on! I'm not going to say the dress is appropriate, and yes, kids should follow reasonable dress codes, but "abominable?" Really?

Can we ditch the hyperbole, please? She's a kid who made a mistake. Big whoop! No need to go all hellfire and damnation!

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:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Oh, come on! I'm not going to say the dress is appropriate, and yes, kids should follow reasonable dress codes, but "abominable?" Really?

Can we ditch the hyperbole, please? She's a kid who made a mistake. Big whoop! No need to go all hellfire and damnation!

But isn't that what we see in the Book of Mormon? Worldly dress and immodesty are the first signs of apostasy, and so it should be a very big deal. We have to stop sugar coating the sins. If a child plays in traffic, we consider it a big deal and rush out to save the child. Well, if a child plays in spiritual traffic, the outcome can be just as devastating. Except too many parents and leaders act like it isn't a big deal.

The reality is, ANY sin keeps us out of the presence of God. Only faith and sincere repentance can change that. This requires humility and submission to the teachings of truth. The girl was not humble, nor saw anything wrong with what she was doing. She felt leaders were over-reacting, when they were trying to save her from wandering in traffic.

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I hear burqa's are nice, and they are pretty modest.

-RM

I actually wore Niqab (does same thing as burqua) for a time, and must say that in America that Niqab is hostility magnet, making the woman the scape goat. It is my opinion that American Muslims who wear Niqab have a deep need for acceptance from anyone and at the Mosque, a woman in Niqab is honored by the men. They do this complicated mind game. Strangely only 1/3 of American women who convert to Islam, remain so.

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But isn't that what we see in the Book of Mormon? Worldly dress and immodesty are the first signs of apostasy, and so it should be a very big deal. We have to stop sugar coating the sins. If a child plays in traffic, we consider it a big deal and rush out to save the child. Well, if a child plays in spiritual traffic, the outcome can be just as devastating. Except too many parents and leaders act like it isn't a big deal.

The reality is, ANY sin keeps us out of the presence of God. Only faith and sincere repentance can change that. This requires humility and submission to the teachings of truth. The girl was not humble, nor saw anything wrong with what she was doing. She felt leaders were over-reacting, when they were trying to save her from wandering in traffic.

I disagree with the notion that all sin is equal. Following that logic, baring one's shoulder is just as bad as going completely naked.

And the idea that any sin keeps us out of the presence of God was pretty much disproven by Jesus' entire life and ministry. God came down and lived among wretched, sinful human beings for over 30 years, ate with them, forgave them, loved them, and died for them.

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:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Oh, come on! I'm not going to say the dress is appropriate, and yes, kids should follow reasonable dress codes, but "abominable?" Really?

Can we ditch the hyperbole, please? She's a kid who made a mistake. Big whoop! No need to go all hellfire and damnation!

....

I do feel sorry for the girl, not because she was chastised for her appearance but because she either does not understand why her dress was immodest or because she does know but doesn't care.

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It sounds like a lot of people in this thread are assuming that because this happened in Happy Valley that the girl was automatically LDS, but that's not necessarily the case. If she doesn't personally have modesty standards, and certainly not those outline in For the Strength of Youth, why should she "know better," "be ashamed," or be doing anything wrong? She may have a different level of understanding than LDS youth.

But I also don't think it's a sin to be immodest in one's dress. I don't think it's okay, but I don't think of it as a sin.

I actually wore Niqab (does same thing as burqua) for a time, and must say that in America that Niqab is hostility magnet, making the woman the scape goat. It is my opinion that American Muslims who wear Niqab have a deep need for acceptance from anyone and at the Mosque, a woman in Niqab is honored by the men. They do this complicated mind game. Strangely only 1/3 of American women who convert to Islam, remain so.

I think RMGuy was being sarcastic and unfortunately, a little bit mean.

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And the idea that any sin keeps us out of the presence of God was pretty much disproven by Jesus' entire life and ministry. God came down and lived among wretched, sinful human beings for over 30 years, ate with them, forgave them, loved them, and died for them.

Please show me some scriptures that say sin will allow you to reside in the presence of God.

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I think RMGuy was being sarcastic and unfortunately, a little bit mean.

Sarcastic? Yes

Mean? No

I'm sure I'm older than many on the forum, younger than some. But I can distinctly remember days when youth in the church attended activities in tank tops and shorts above the knee.

Now I have seen individuals advocate that our youth live up to the same standards of dress as those who have covenanted to do so in the temple. They need to dress as though they are wearing garments. I've heard others attempt to shame even younger children (achievement days, primary etc.) that what they are wearing is immodest.

We are all entitled to our opinions. Mine is that we have gone a bit off the deep end on this modesty kick. I think it has gone a bit beyond a reasonable standard. We've moved beyond the concept of teaching correct principles and allowing individuals to govern themselves. That's my opinion.

So a bit tongue in cheek, where does it stop? If you are going to have 'impure thoughts' over a shoulder or a belly button, then what about a wrist? A calf?

-RM

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