Petition to the BSA

[Dravin]

The BSA isn't a Christian organization. It's a non-denominational organization--at least it claims to be.

Even so, not all Christian organizations agree that homosexuality is wrong. The church that sponsors my troop often flies the rainbow flag under the Episcopal flag. You aren't likely to see a complaint about homosexual leaders in this troop because the chartering organization would back the leader.

It should be noted that while a prohibition on homosexual leaders prevents your organization from having a homosexual leader an allowance of homosexual leaders would not force, for instance, an LDS troop to have homosexual leaders. Not without getting into a hypothetical domino argument.

[Gwen]

It should be noted that while a prohibition on homosexual leaders prevents your organization from having a homosexual leader an allowance of homosexual leaders would not force, for instance, an LDS troop to have homosexual leaders. Not without getting into a hypothetical domino argument.

However, I can't see why an lds troop would prevent a homosexual leader if they are living the church standards. If they can hold the priesthood and go to the temple why not scout leader?

I do agree though that if a specific troop is chartered by a religious organization that does not allow homosexuals then they should be able to maintain that right.

[Dravin]

However, I can't see why an lds troop would prevent a homosexual leader if they are living the church standards. If they can hold the priesthood and go to the temple why not scout leader?

The key here, and you recognize this, is force. The Church could of course choose to do so.

[Wingnut]

One of the objections to the "gay culture" is that it's promiscuous.

It's also incredibly ignorant to think that this applies only to those with same-sex attraction. Straight people aren't promiscuous? Hah!

(Gwen, that comment isn't directed at you, BTW.)

[carlimac]

Ah, I see. The "It happened once--it must be a pervasive problem" argument.

Once? Wouldn't it be nice. Actually, even once is one time too many. I haven't read the article in awhile so I don't remember if numbers or statistics were used. It doesn't seem a topic that lends itself well to the scientific method. So I ask what would motivate a person to make these stories up? Are we to simply brush them away and say they aren't relevant?

[Gwen]

It's also incredibly ignorant to think that this applies only to those with same-sex attraction. Straight people aren't promiscuous? Hah!

(Gwen, that comment isn't directed at you, BTW.)

This is exactly the idea behind scouting. Young men today do not have to be what hollywood says youth today are. They don't have to be selfish and sleep around, they don't have to be teen fathers of children with 4 different mothers or join gangs. They should and can be honest, dependable, safe, educated, moral men. The goal is to build leaders.

We can't have gay leaders in our society? We can't have men* out there changing the culture and the perception of a group of ppl? We don't need such a movement for all youth today?

*and women lol it's interesting how the petition is about a woman not being allowed to do cub scouting with her son and we seem to be focused on the male leaders of the boy scouts.

[MarginOfError]

Once? Wouldn't it be nice. Actually, even once is one time too many. I haven't read the article in awhile so I don't remember if numbers or statistics were used. It doesn't seem a topic that lends itself well to the scientific method. So I ask what would motivate a person to make these stories up? Are we to simply brush them away and say they aren't relevant?

The fact of the matter is that however often it has happened, it has been frequently enough to be an established pattern. The only place you will find such claims are in that report, or in articles that cite that report. There has been no corroboration of the phenomenon. And the author of the report has been discredited for putting agenda ahead of scientific integrity.

As Gwen mentioned, surely "homosexual recruiting" has taken place somewhere in history. But to claim that it is the norm of homosexual culture is like claiming that testicular electro therapy is the norm for heterosexual recruiting.

[carlimac]

It's also incredibly ignorant to think that this applies only to those with same-sex attraction. Straight people aren't promiscuous? Hah!

(Gwen, that comment isn't directed at you, BTW.)

They are but that's another discussion altogether. I'm sure the BSA doesn't want to allow any kind of child molester, gay or straight. Isn't that a given? I don't know but I'd imagine there is some kind of way of sifting out someone who might be a risk. Maybe not, but there should be. It's not just a homosexual issue.

[MarginOfError]

They are but that's another discussion altogether. I'm sure the BSA doesn't want to allow any kind of child molester, gay or straight. Isn't that a given? I don't know but I'd imagine there is some kind of way of sifting out someone who might be a risk. Maybe not, but there should be. It's not just a homosexual issue.

Well now you've changed the subject from adult promiscuity to child molestation.

Try this on for size--a homosexual male that has been in a committed and monogamous relationship for 15 years is not allowed to be a scout leader.

A heterosexual male who has had multiple affairs is allowed to be a scout leader.

[carlimac]

The fact of the matter is that however often it has happened, it has been frequently enough to be an established pattern. The only place you will find such claims are in that report, or in articles that cite that report. There has been no corroboration of the phenomenon. And the author of the report has been discredited for putting agenda ahead of scientific integrity.

As Gwen mentioned, surely "homosexual recruiting" has taken place somewhere in history. But to claim that it is the norm of homosexual culture is like claiming that testicular electro therapy is the norm for heterosexual recruiting.

I don't think I ever said I though it was the norm. I certainly don't think that. But from reading the article, it's obvious that there ARE pockets of it in some locations. So my original statement that plenty of recruiting goes go on, is true. I didn't say it's rampant. OK OK "Plenty" is not very specific or scientific. But trying to paint this sweet picture of young gay boys looking up to gay older men and these old guys trying to bond in some platonic and fatherly way is probably naive. It might happen in some circumstances but go back and read Soulsearcher's response. "Let me tell you there are plenty of eager youth looking to seduce older both gay and straight. " And we know from anectodal stories that it goes the other way, too. Older men looking to recruit young boys to satisfy themselves. You can't possibly deny that. The BSA has to be extremely careful- even to the point of excluding a few who are completely innocent like this woman. The few creeps out there have ruined it for the rest who only have clean and pure interests in the Boy Scouts.

Edited April 26, 2012 by carlimac

[Guest]

Let's bring this back to the BSA.

It's really very simple.

The BSA upholds that being in a homosexual relationship is not compatible to being "morally straight". Period. That's it. We really don't have to go into what is morally straight and what is not outside of the BSA because there are other threads for that. The BSA do not bar gay people from being leaders if they are not living a homosexual lifestyle. The only thing that I might have a problem with is that (in my understanding) somebody who openly declares they are homosexual is considered by the BSA as living a homosexual lifestyle. In the BSA mindset, there is no reason to declare yourself homosexual (sexual orientation is deemed private) unless you intend to practice it. That's the only iffy thing about it.

As it happens, the BSA ideal of "morally straight" is compatible with my ideal of "morally straight" which is the same ideal as what the Church holds so you will not see me signing a petition for this woman. Because, in this particular instance, this woman is living with another woman in an active homosexual relationship. It is, to me, a smack in the face of the Scout Law to declare in an Oath to be morally straight when you have a scout leader who defies that standard.

If your moral inclination is different than the BSA inclination, please start your own BSA. I like the BSA moral standard just the way it is.

I do not agree that homosexual relationships are inherently promiscous. I do not agree that homosexuals are pedophiles. The only reason - and it's the ONLY reason - that I uphold the standard that homosexual relationships are not morally straight is because my God says so. And please recognize the use of the word "relationship". I never said, and my God never said, being a homosexual is immoral. That's really it and the end of my story.

Edited April 26, 2012 by anatess

[carlimac]

Well now you've changed the subject from adult promiscuity to child molestation.

Try this on for size--a homosexual male that has been in a committed and monogamous relationship for 15 years is not allowed to be a scout leader.

A heterosexual male who has had multiple affairs is allowed to be a scout leader.

I didn't change it. I thought that's what this whole thread was about.

Edited April 26, 2012 by carlimac

[HEthePrimate]

But trying to paint this sweet picture of young gay boys looking up to gay older men and these old guys trying to bond in some platonic and fatherly way is probably naive. It might happen in some circumstances but go back and read Soulsearcher's response. "Let me tell you there are plenty of eager youth looking to seduce older both gay and straight. " And we know from anectodal stories that it goes the other way, too. Older men looking to recruit young boys to satisfy themselves. You can't possibly deny that. The BSA has to be extremely careful- even to the point of excluding a few who are completely innocent like this woman. The few creeps out there have ruined it for the rest who only have clean and pure interests in the Boy Scouts.

By that logic, the BSA should be extremely careful of heterosexual women being den mothers to young heterosexual boys, lest they seduce them. To be completely safe, only heterosexual men and lesbian women should be Cub or Boy Scout leaders, right, because then there would be no temptation for any of the adults involved, right?

[carlimac]

By that logic, the BSA should be extremely careful of heterosexual women being den mothers to young heterosexual boys, lest they seduce them. To be completely safe, only heterosexual men and lesbian women should be Cub or Boy Scout leaders, right, because then there would be no temptation for any of the adults involved, right?

You've totally lost me.

[HEthePrimate]

You've totally lost me.

Just that if we're worried about sexual dalliance between adult leaders and boy scouts, remove any adult leaders who are attracted to males from the equation. Neither heterosexual men nor homosexual women are attracted to males, and so would presumably be safe with the boys.

I was being a bit facetious, but in my opinion, if it's a matter of the boys' safety, the important thing to consider is not whether or not adult leaders are homosexual or heterosexual, but if they're child molestors.

homosexual =/= (does NOT equal) child molestor

[Guest]

Just that if we're worried about sexual dalliance between adult leaders and boy scouts, remove any adult leaders who are attracted to males from the equation. Neither heterosexual men nor homosexual women are attracted to males, and so would presumably be safe with the boys.

I was being a bit facetious, but in my opinion, if it's a matter of the boys' safety, the important thing to consider is not whether or not adult leaders are homosexual or heterosexual, but if they're child molestors.

homosexual =/= (does NOT equal) child molestor

All this is noise. Really. These are speculation that is doing nothing more than clouding the issue and flumoxing everybody so that they don't bother to discuss the REAL issue.

I will reiterate the REAL issue. The Scout Oath includes being "morally straight". A woman living a sexual relationship with another woman does not align with that BSA standard of being "morally straight". Therefore, she does not qualify as a Scout Leader. Period.

[Backroads]

Looks like I'm late to the party...

I'm not signing it, mainly because I think it's the BSA's right to do what they want. Do I agree with them kicking out this leader? On a moral level, no. I do however support those who sign this. To me, it's expressing an opinion.

I believe that the BSA program has much to offer boys regardless of sexual orientation (or religion; the exclusion of atheists and agnostics is something I firmly oppose as well).

I agree the BSA has much to offer, but I'm not sure how to take your opposition to excluding atheists/agnostics. I suppose I don't agree with excluding them, but Scouting has a deeply spiritual quality to it. Should atheists/agnostics join the BSA and demand a removal of any reference to a higher power?

Oddly enough... I've met two Wiccan boys in Venturing units. Very active Scouters.

[Backroads]

All this is noise. Really. These are speculation that is doing nothing more than clouding the issue and flumoxing everybody so that they don't bother to discuss the REAL issue.

I will reiterate the REAL issue. The Scout Oath includes being "morally straight". A woman living a sexual relationship with another woman does not align with that BSA standard of being "morally straight". Therefore, she does not qualify as a Scout Leader. Period.

In other words.... whether or not we agree with the moral definition of Scouting's "morally straight", they have defined it for themselves and it's their definition. End of story.

[HEthePrimate]

All this is noise. Really. These are speculation that is doing nothing more than clouding the issue and flumoxing everybody so that they don't bother to discuss the REAL issue.

I will reiterate the REAL issue. The Scout Oath includes being "morally straight". A woman living a sexual relationship with another woman does not align with that BSA standard of being "morally straight". Therefore, she does not qualify as a Scout Leader. Period.

You are probably right that that is the main reason the BSA prohibits homosexuals from serving in the Scouting program.

However, that does not mean that what I said is just "noise." The safety of their children is a very real concern for parents, and unfortunately there are ignorant people who think that homosexuals are, or are more likely to be, child molestors. Equating homosexuals with child molestors, however false that may be, gives people another reason to fear and hate homosexuals unfairly.

[Backroads]

You are probably right that that is the main reason the BSA prohibits homosexuals from serving in the Scouting program.

However, that does not mean that what I said is just "noise." The safety of their children is a very real concern for parents, and unfortunately there are ignorant people who think that homosexuals are, or are more likely to be, child molestors. Equating homosexuals with child molestors, however false that may be, gives people another reason to fear and hate homosexuals unfairly.

I completely agree with you on this, but should it be up to the only the BSA to change this image? Yes, the image ought to be changed, but I don't think it's necessarily right to force private organizations to begin.

[HEthePrimate]

Looks like I'm late to the party...

I'm not signing it, mainly because I think it's the BSA's right to do what they want. Do I agree with them kicking out this leader? On a moral level, no. I do however support those who sign this. To me, it's expressing an opinion.

I agree the BSA has much to offer, but I'm not sure how to take your opposition to excluding atheists/agnostics. I suppose I don't agree with excluding them, but Scouting has a deeply spiritual quality to it. Should atheists/agnostics join the BSA and demand a removal of any reference to a higher power?

Oddly enough... I've met two Wiccan boys in Venturing units. Very active Scouters.

Well, Wiccans do believe in deities, so they shouldn't have a problem.

As a private organization, the BSA does have the right to pick its own leaders. The petition, however, does not force the BSA to do anything--it's basically just a way of exercising peer pressure. I might sign the petition to express to them that I disagree with their current policies and want them to change. Whether or not they actually do is up to them, but I have the right and freedom to express my opinion to them and try to persuade and pressure them to change.

I may disagree with some of their policies, but I am not against the BSA at all. I am an Eagle Scout and had valuable experiences as a boy in the Scouting program. I would like for gay and atheist boys to be able to enjoy those experiences as well. It's all well and fine to say "start your own program," and maybe that will be necessary, but it makes sense from a practical point of view to first try a well-established program that already exists.

Edited April 27, 2012 by HEthePrimate

[RMGuy]

Signed

-RM

[Backroads]

Well, Wiccans do believe in deities, so they shouldn't have a problem.

As a private organization, the BSA does have the right to pick its own leaders. The petition, however, does not force the BSA to do anything--it's basically just a way of exercising peer pressure. I might sign the petition to express to them that I disagree with their current policies and want them to change. Whether or not they actually do is up to them, but I have the right and freedom to express my opinion to them and try to persuade and pressure them to change.

I may disagree with some of their policies, but I am not against the BSA at all. I am an Eagle Scout and had valuable experiences as a boy in the Scouting program. I would like for gay and atheist boys to be able to enjoy those experiences as well. It's all well and fine to say "start your own program," and maybe that will be necessary, but it makes sense from a practical point of view to first try a well-established program that already exists.

Which is why I'm not at all against the petition. For me personally, I don't see a point and would prefer not to take sides.

We have an Earth-based religion "church" (for lack of a better word) in our area that had what they called Earth Scouts. Nothing really happened with it, so some of the members are talking with our field scouters to start up Boy Scouts. Maybe they will prefer the well-established program!

[FunkyTown]

I find this a difficult thing. My heart goes out to the man who wants to serve as scoutmaster. He obviously has some parenting instincts as he wants to guide kids to learn important skills and become morally upstanding. I think that's a wonderful thing and I wish him the best.

This is a private organization with strictures that we may or may not agree with. If someone got kicked out of the purple hat society because they didn't like purple hats and refused to wear them, then I would have the same feeling on it.

That said... I have read some bizarre things on here. I really think there needs to be education on same sex attraction. I lived in Vancouver where a lot of gay Mormons move and, frankly, I am surprised the number of gay Mormons who go inactive isn't 100% with some of what I'm reading on here. It really is appalling.

[Backroads]

I'll step away from BSA rules and whatnot and state my opinion on it. If a man/woman can pass a criminal background check and seems like a decent enough leader who works well with kids, I'd let him/her be a Scout leader regardless of religion or sexual orientation or hat color preference*.

*Though if they show up to Scout meetings wearing really stupid hats that are totally out of Scout uniform guidelines, that's another thing entirely.