Need advice with career/having kids


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Good afternoon Hahnzee! I hope you are doing well. :)

My experiences don't necessarily apply to others but I do know that you can start a family immediately and still go to school, still work and provide, and still be able to have a happy and wonderful family. I think the general supposition is that one must already have an established career or done with schooling before it is wise to have a family. I'm not sure where this supposition came from and why this has been elevated to the status of some sort of universal truth.

I don't know where you got that either because... I've never heard of it as universal truth... not even in the Philippines where there are people with children literally living off of garbage... the choice to bring children into garbage or wait until you've at least succeeded to rise above garbage has always been left to the individual in his/her circumstance.

In this thread, we're not promoting one or the other. We're trying to tell the OP that the decision is between her and her husband. Not her, her husband, and her in-laws. Because, either way - wait or not - is just as valid depending on their circumstance.

Edited by anatess
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GA's have stated to not delay having children for school or careers. However, they've also stated that ultimately it is a decision between the couple and the Lord.

I would amend this statement to:

GA's have stated to not delay having children for school or careers, and that parents are "responsible to provide the necessities of life."

Part of being an adult is recognizing that there are not clear black and white answers; there is a lot of gray in the world and you have to make tough decisions to manage it.

I was talking to a couple of my scouts this week about the Family Life merit badge. One of them said, "I can't imagine ever being a parent." I told him that being a parent was easily the most incredible and enjoyable thing I've ever done. He looked at me with a bit of surprise that I could say that so easily. Then I added, "but it only feels like that if you wait until you're ready to be a parent." He seemed very satisfied with that description.

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Here's a good talk to understand the Church's teaching on having children:

Children - general-conference

Oddly, I got really irritated with that talk. Twice in that talk, it makes the explicit injunction that we should not judge each other for our decisions about when to have children and how many to have. But, to me, it feels like these injunctions are lip-service; almost like they're made just so that the author can claim he gave the injunction in spite of his real message.

In the examples he gives of people who made righteous decisions to have children, one is told "where is your faith," planting the idea that if you're not willing to have children right away, you don't have true faith.

His other examples of parents who raised children despite not having lots of luxuries, he cites Adam and Eve (they had plenty of farmland with which to provide for their family), Lehi and Saraiah having Jacob and Joseph in the wilderness (again, resources were not limited in any comparable way to the resources of a modern student), the birth of Moses (whose parents, in order to save his life, snuck him in the the royal family's care), and Joseph and Mary delivering Christ in a stable (this wasn't poverty, this was travel. While not wealthy, Joseph and Mary still had resources). In all of these cases, the parents had the means with which to provide the necessities of life*.

So when I heard and read this talk, I had this strong sense of double speak: "We urge you not to judge each other in these matters; but there's only one right way to do it."

Thanks for that.

My point is this: Parents and potential parents need to evaluate their resources, their goals, and their covenants and make the decision that satisfies the temporal, spiritual, and emotional needs of them and their current and potential children. These decisions need to be made in the context of their current temporal, spiritual, and emotional state**.

* A phrase that is taken from the Proclamation on the Family.

** For example, an anecdote of a family that made it work in 1970s is of limited application to a family in 2012; healthcare costs have more than doubled since 1970 and wages haven't increased at anywhere near that rate. Student families are even more affected as tuition rates have climbed ever higher.

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Sorry to irritate you.

I think that people today, in general, delay children in order to get that fancy house or nice car, or think that in order to have children they need to have an abundance of cash. What I think the GA's are saying is that yes, it is a decision between the couple and the Lord and is a private thing. But, we need to really think about making sacrifices to have children. Obviously, if one can barely feed themselves, then having children probably isn't a good idea. But, we don't need to have a cell phone every year, or the newest gaming system, or a brand new car as "necessities". We can have children, make sacrifices, and be able to support them and be happy.

That's my take-away from the talks from GAs.

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Sorry to irritate you.

I think that people today, in general, delay children in order to get that fancy house or nice car, or think that in order to have children they need to have an abundance of cash. What I think the GA's are saying is that yes, it is a decision between the couple and the Lord and is a private thing. But, we need to really think about making sacrifices to have children. Obviously, if one can barely feed themselves, then having children probably isn't a good idea. But, we don't need to have a cell phone every year, or the newest gaming system, or a brand new car as "necessities". We can have children, make sacrifices, and be able to support them and be happy.

That's my take-away from the talks from GAs.

I just don't think they address that very well. The way they talk about it still feels very "one-size-fits-all." I'm sure they understand the issue is far more nuanced than acknowledged in the talk. I just don't understand why they can't acknowledge that nuance.

I'd also love to hear them start speaking out against materialism and consumerism. They talk about not getting into debt, and saving for a rainy day; but they could speak a lot more strongly about living within our means and not in extravagance. If they did that, they would probably be more successful at getting people to stop delaying their families.

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I dunno. There are definitely nuances in the situation, but I fear that trying to announce all of them would wind up as an overly specific "Okay/Not Okay" list.

Poor GAs.

As Elder Oaks says, general authorities give general advice/counsel, and exceptions do exist.

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I dunno. There are definitely nuances in the situation, but I fear that trying to announce all of them would wind up as an overly specific "Okay/Not Okay" list.

Poor GAs.

I'd imagine "When deciding when and how many children to have, remember to consider both your economic situation and your covenants" to be pretty general counsel.

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I just don't think they address that very well. The way they talk about it still feels very "one-size-fits-all." I'm sure they understand the issue is far more nuanced than acknowledged in the talk. I just don't understand why they can't acknowledge that nuance.

It's just amazing to me how badly the General Authorities of the Church fail to meet your exacting standards. Why they don't just have you vet all their talks beforehand, I'm sure I don't know.

I'd also love to hear them start speaking out against materialism and consumerism. They talk about not getting into debt, and saving for a rainy day; but they could speak a lot more strongly about living within our means and not in extravagance.

Elder Ballard's talk from this last General Conference includes:

Today we live in a time when much of this world has lost its way, particularly with regard to values and priorities within our homes.

It is our homes and families that need reforming in this increasingly materialistic and secular world.[...] We also know that among couples in the United States who do marry, nearly half get divorced. Even those who stay married often lose their way by letting other things interfere with their family relationships.

Equally worrisome is the ever-growing gap between the rich and poor and between those who strive to preserve family values and commitments and those who have given up on doing so.

Here, Elder Ballard not only decries materialism, but explicitly says that the rich/poor gap is "equally worrisome" with the plague of divorce. A stunning indictment of materialism and its destructive effects on society.

But clearly, Elder Ballard's teachings aren't good enough for you. Too milquetoast.

I suggest you write him a pointed letter and point out his flaws. I am sure he would appreciate that. While you're at it, do Jesus a favor and tell President Monson how badly he and the other apostles are failing at their duties. I'm sure they will thank you for it.

Or...

You could be loyal to those great and good men whom God has called and who have dedicated their lives to the building of the kingdom, and stop speaking any evil of the Lord's anointed. You could search for all those good teaching that you think they "should" be giving and come to realize that they are indeed teaching them -- for anyone with ears to hear. You can treat them the way you would treat them if they were your father, or brother, or son.

I dunno. Just a thought.

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Part of being "ready" to have kids is wanting to have kids. Can you imagine someone getting baptized or married against their will? Same goes for kids, if you don't want them yet, by definition, you are not ready yet.

Having kids early worked well for me, but if my own kids ask my advice, I would tell them to wait until they wanted kids to have kids.

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So here are my thoughts after reading through all of the comments.

1. If you and your spouse do not have the same opinion about having kids right now, that needs to be worked out. BOTH sides of the argument to have/not to have need equal attention and consideration.

2. Although you should live your own lives, advice from your parents should not go unheeded. Remember that they can be a voice of reasoning. But in the end, you should make your decisions.

3. Involve the Lord in these decisions and disputes. For my family we have followed a patern. If we could afford another child and provide these neccessities, we would have another child. It's not how we planned it, but it made sense and felt good. My wife and I were debating on having a 4th child after deciding we were going to be done at 3. It was on our minds and while praying I contemplated having another child. Although me personally I thought no way, it's nuts as it is... a thought came to me that changed my mind in a heart beat... that thought was "why not?", and I reflected on the why nots, it came down to my selfishness. We could afford it, we could handle it. So why not bring another spirit into a good family when there are sooo many problems in the world?

4. Do not expect to have your plans go through the exact way you want. Lives change, plans change, hearts change, as long as your end result of raising a righteous family and being able to support them do not change, then you will be okay.

5. Please do not expect the church to govern your every move. We receive a direction on most items and are expected to make the best of it. Use your "tallents" you have been given and make more of them. Do not expect others to tell you exactly how to use your tallents. Some can afford both monetarily and mentally more children. Or any children. Some cannot. But USE WHAT YOU HAVE. You cannot expect to be at the judgment seat and tell our Savior that you werent told to turn left or right at every possible moment.

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You are not being selfish. Quite the opposite IMHO. You both are laying a foundation for your family's future and should stay the course.

I don't know how old you are, but assuming twenties, you have plenty of time ot bring your children into the world. And what a world it will be! You will be able to take care of them in a manner that is appropriate for all God's children, and not have heavy debts to pay.

I agree that these decisions should be made by the two of you, and not by his, yours or anyone else's family.

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Basically my husband thinks that I'm not following the direction of the prophets by not having kids NOW.

That's a total Crock.;)

Utah culture should not dictate your personal situation. The prophets of this church are NOT trying to micromanage your lives although some would have you believe that's true.

Edited by mrmarklin
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reading all the posts and thinking a little about it

1. kids are not a something to fight about, they are a blessing from God and if they come over a disagreement where is the joy in having a child.

2. In-laws want to know that there will be a posterity from this wedding. So sad as sometimes there is none, sometimes the grand kids come much later and sometimes because of in-law pressures the marriage dies.

3. Never ever have kids to make someone else happy as you will never be happy in that case because you didn't make the decision.

4. You and your husband our both a part of something now, your parents are your extended family and anything they say, want, desire is nice but may not be what is right for "your family"

5. As to what is right for "your family" both of you get down on your knees and ask the Lord and don't expect a quick answer, don't expect the Lord to give you everything with no real thought on your part, and lastly the time for kids is not the same for everyone the scary thing is when you stop thinking about whether it is time to have kids or not and your family is really a family the kids will start showing up.

6. I know this might be a hard thing to think about, but what if one of you for some reason can't have kids ever? You do realize there is other ways to have kids don't you and they need to be loved, nurtured and wanted just as bad as any kid.

7. It is time for both of you to tell parents that you make the decisions of what is best for " your family" and thanks for all the desire but we will decide when to have kids, where we live and most of what is best for my husband and myself with the help of the Lord.

8. If you let in-laws make the decision of when you have kids are you going to invite them to the event also?

9. From what I have read here it sounds like your husband still feels an attachment to his family more so than to his new family that he chose to become a part of.

10. Never let either one of you play the mistaken trump card that the church says this or that because that is a very slippery slope to get on and it always ends badly.

Best of luck

I can tell you that I walked away from college when the military called, it was 30 years later when I finally got the chance to go to college again. But my first wife had been murdered, the kids we had have no use for dad, the second wife was a gold digger, as an old man I am studying to get my masters degree, yea 40 years late.

But you know what I am studying life is a great teacher and will help me a lot in my career.

Also I am in my 60's and have little kids in my life, yes they are my kids not grand kids.

Life is a journey and none of know the road we should or will travel until we get older and begin to look back on things we did and didn't do.

I am on third family in this life, have a total of 12 kids that have my last name and am still called dad by very young kids. Is this how I saw my life nope but it is how the Lord saw it. How do I know because he is allowing me to be a dad at my age and love my little guys so much and yes there are challenges their mother my third wife divorced me. Nope not my idea just how it worked out. Now my kids are 5 hours away and I get to have time with them every so often.

Kids are a real blessing from the Lord and we need to realize there is a time and a place for them in our lives but it may not be when we think it is or the role they play in our lives either.

think long and hard about when to have kids? You want to be able to enjoy them, love them, meet their needs and yours, and most of all it needs to be at the right time for you and your husband not anyone else.

best of luck

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I can tell you right now that no matter how much you love your children, if you allow someone else to pressure you into intentionally getting pregnant before you're ready, you will always resent that. The prophets have specified that how you choose to structure your family with regards to work and home is up to the couple. Throwing down the prophet card to try to force your hand is misrepresentation at best, abuse of priesthood authority at worst. A marriage is supposed to be a team effort. It's nice if your two families want to offer advice, but ultimately the two of you are the ones who have to live with the decisions. Unless they're offering to fully fund your life and his education so you can force yourself into their mold of perfection (and even then) they need to butt out and mind their own business. They aren't the ones who have to pay the bills and feed those mouths they're insisting you produce. If you were delaying so you could have a newer model car, I'd agree that you were perhaps a tad selfish, but it sounds like you just want to establish a baseline so that at least one of you can produce enough of an income to cover basic neccessities, and that's not selfish, it's responsible. Know, too, that the advice not to delay children for school is fine--if you're able to make enough money by doing that to actually feed your family. We are encouraged in our church to be debt free and prosperous, industrious people. To imply or state that by setting up these basic building blocks to ensure your family's success is somehow not following the prophet violates the very spirit our gospel was founded on.

By the way...I've been in the Marine Corps for 11 years. My husband stays at home with the kids. We both hold temple recommends and church callings. Never once has any of our bishops or stake presidents implied or stated that me working goes against church teachings. Is it what i pictured? No. But it's what works for our family and allows us to pay the bills and be the ones to raise our kids instead of having the state take them away because we can't afford to feed them. Look at the big picture and don't be bullied by stereotypes.

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  • 2 months later...

Your husband isn't listening to you.

I cannot stress this enough: DO NOT LET YOUR HUSBAND GUILT YOU INTO GETTING PREGNANT.

That would be a tragedy! You are so young, you have only been married 1.5 years for heaven's sake. Children CAN be put off. There is nothing wrong with this. So you experience life, you build up a career and do all you can because once children come, it's OVER for you. Life will never be the same, so I beg you not to let your husband talk you into this.

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Your husband isn't listening to you.

I cannot stress this enough: DO NOT LET YOUR HUSBAND GUILT YOU INTO GETTING PREGNANT.

That would be a tragedy! You are so young, you have only been married 1.5 years for heaven's sake. Children CAN be put off. There is nothing wrong with this. So you experience life, you build up a career and do all you can because once children come, it's OVER for you. Life will never be the same, so I beg you not to let your husband talk you into this.

Oh no... life is not OVER at all. Not even close. I got me an Engineering Masters Degree after having 2 children, so I'm prime example that it is not over once children come.

But yeah, I agree with everything else.

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