Breaking the cycle


moocow
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...Also, he will get kicked out of school and lose his job....

Because he attends BYU and he has messed with the Honor Code? If that is right, then this would only happen if he confesses not if you two get married. I can't imagine loosing school and job because of a civil marriage. :huh:

M.

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Because he attends BYU and he has messed with the Honor Code? If that is right, then this would only happen if he confesses not if you two get married. I can't imagine loosing school and job because of a civil marriage. :huh:

M.

Are you recommending dishonesty in order to avoid the consequences of one's actions? It's okay to break the Honor Code as long as you don't get caught?

I also doubt that he can pull the wool over his Bishop's eyes by entering into a civil marriage.

There are always consequences for one's actions. He might be able to delay the consequences for a while, but he will have to be accountable at some point.

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Are you recommending dishonesty in order to avoid the consequences of one's actions? It's okay to break the Honor Code as long as you don't get caught?

Nope, she's expressing doubt that getting a civil marriage is an honor code violation.

Edited by Dravin
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Are you recommending dishonesty in order to avoid the consequences of one's actions? It's okay to break the Honor Code as long as you don't get caught?

I also doubt that he can pull the wool over his Bishop's eyes by entering into a civil marriage.

There are always consequences for one's actions. He might be able to delay the consequences for a while, but he will have to be accountable at some point.

What Dravin said.

I just wanted to understand the reason why her fella would loose his job and school. And even if the couple did have a civil marriage, I doubt their Bishop would think they did something terrible. Better to get married than to continue to have a chastity problem; especially if they know that they want to marry each other.

M.

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What Dravin said.

I just wanted to understand the reason why her fella would loose his job and school. And even if the couple did have a civil marriage, I doubt their Bishop would think they did something terrible. Better to get married than to continue to have a chastity problem; especially if they know that they want to marry each other.

M.

To explain the comments you are getting a little. I think people are figuring that if they have a civil ceremony (or start planning one) their Bishop(s) will call them into an interview and ask them if there is anything they need to talk with him about. The assumption is if two members are getting married they will get sealed in the temple, if they don't a lot of people will see that as a flag with bold print on it stating, "One or both of us have worthiness issues." This is, I suspect, where Eowyn's comment is stemming from. Leah's questions were kinda jumping a step ahead to where he'd have to either lie or come clean. I'm not sure she realizes you aren't LDS though, so this thought process won't necessarily be occurring to you.

Edited by Dravin
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Just to make sure we're all on the same page here:

When two relatively healthy people in a relatively healthy relationship decide to move from having sex out of wedlock, to a covenantal married relationship - bishops tend to shout for joy. Getting married is often a very favorable way to move past a sinful lifestyle in the eyes of the church.

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Just to make sure we're all on the same page here:

When two relatively healthy people in a relatively healthy relationship decide to move from having sex out of wedlock, to a covenantal married relationship - bishops tend to shout for joy. Getting married is often a very favorable way to move past a sinful lifestyle in the eyes of the church.

Doesn't this send the message, though....just go ahead and have sex if you want....all you have to do to make it "right" is have a civil marriage, wait a year to get sealed in the Temple. Why is there never any expectation that people either actually - gasp! - NOT have sex so they can have a Temple marriage from the get-go...or....never any counsel to stop the sex, repent, live chastely for a year and then get married in the Temple? I've seen people in other faiths manage to that.

From reading various threads on here, it really seems as if it's no big deal to have sex before marriage. You just do the civil thing and that makes it all good.

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Just to make sure we're all on the same page here:

When two relatively healthy people in a relatively healthy relationship decide to move from having sex out of wedlock, to a covenantal married relationship - bishops tend to shout for joy. Getting married is often a very favorable way to move past a sinful lifestyle in the eyes of the church.

This is true. But really, really, really pay attention to the bolded words.

Usually, this applies to two people who are either a.) a newly converted couple who has lived unchaste lives prior to conversion, b.) inactive in the Church.

A lot of times, having Chastity issues when one knows the consequences of such actions and then can't own up to the weakness is a red flag that might indicate a not-so-healthy relationship. Respect is a big thing in a marriage. Not living to one's Code of Honor may point to some form of disrespect.

In summary - don't get married just so you can have free license to sex. Get married because you found THE GUY that you can love unconditionally through the eternities and you are blessed that he loves you back... that kind of guy is worth being chaste for. And he would feel the same towards you. Because in the whole scheme of things, sex, although important, shouldn't be the end-all be-all of what your relationship is about.

Okay, just my 2 cents.

Edited by anatess
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Doesn't this send the message, though....just go ahead and have sex if you want....all you have to do to make it "right" is have a civil marriage, wait a year to get sealed in the Temple. Why is there never any expectation that people either actually - gasp! - NOT have sex so they can have a Temple marriage from the get-go...or....never any counsel to stop the sex, repent, live chastely for a year and then get married in the Temple? I've seen people in other faiths manage to that.

From reading various threads on here, it really seems as if it's no big deal to have sex before marriage. You just do the civil thing and that makes it all good.

You're right, it does tend to send that message and I agree with you on many points.

But for many people, sex is a difficult thing to just walk away from. Living the law of chastity is an important thing, don't get me wrong. I also don't want to make light of the bonds of marriage, but if you are deeply committed to another person and considering him/her, more or less, your partner, that connection is in many ways deeper than some couple that wanders off to the priest for the heck of it. Sex in a committed relationship: it's not that easy to let go.

Should two people who know better be using this as an excuse? Not at all. But do missionaries ask new converts who have been living in committed relationships for years without the term "marriage" to go their separate ways for a year before getting married? I have yet to hear of an incident.

So in many cases it might just be wiser to have a couple that already acts like a married couple to make it official. It's the decision to respect the pre-existing relationship more than their state of sin.

Now, my BiL actually got sent home from the MTC when the information about him and his girlfriend and the broken law of chastity came out. These were two kids that had known each other since they were small. I'm not excusing what they did, just acknowledging they felt committed to each other. They, however, did not get married right off the bat. He stayed with his parents, she with hers, and a little over a year later they did manage to hold their wedding day at the temple.

Personally, I prefer that route.

But I have trouble condemning every committed couple that decides to marry as part of the repentance process.

You bring up another question: Is it better to be married in the temple rather than sealed in it after the fact? In my view, the sealing is what is important. Living righteously so you can be SEALED in the temple is the big thing, not whether or not that's where you are on your wedding day.

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At this point in the discussion, I'm finding an important thing to note is that getting married is not seen as a solution to the problem. It is simply seen as a (possibly) responsible decision (depending on the details of the situation) that would alter the circumstances in such a way that it would be easier to avoid the temptations to give in to such a serious sin.

When I broke the law of chastity and had pre-marital relations with my now ex-husband, and we then went to our bishop together- the bishop instructed us to do everything in our power to avoid continuing to break the LoC. That meant refraining from sexual relations until after we were married.

The bishop won't say something like "go ahead and keep having sex since you're doing it anyway and hurry up and get married to make it okay". It's more like- "This is a very serious sin that needs to be avoided and the temptation is clearly very strong. It would not be a sin to be engaging in this behavior if you were married, but you are not. So you need to change the circumstances. I would like to encourage you to marry now or as soon as possible so that the temptation to sin is no longer present, but until you do marry or decide to break off the relationship entirely, you need to do everything in your power to avoid having sex."

In cases of co-habitation and/or where the girl is already pregnant, the push to go ahead and get civilly married is very strong, because avoiding the temptation to continue having sex while co-habiting is almost impossible, and if pregnant you already have a new life on the way for which the two of you need to bear responsibility.

Here's the crutch though. You two are already breaking the BYU honor code. Getting civilly married would change the situation so that you are both no longer sinning and no longer breaking the honor code, but acting to do so without confessing first is a sign that you are not truly repentant. Going to your bishop after your married to say something like "We were breaking the honor code but we got married so we aren't now" isn't going to cut it. The consequences for your decisions will follow, eventually. You will experience some kind of fallout for your mistakes. Do you want to own up to your decisions now and have that fallout be only the temporal consequences, or do you want to wait and face eternal consequences?

The fact that this has been a continuous problem for you and that this scenario has now come up with at least two men and you are still avoiding confession means that whenever this actually does get brought to your bishop, the likelihood of you being excommunicated is becoming very very high. When you go to your bishop, it is to seek his help in working on improving yourself, your situation, and your ability to overcome your sins and weaknesses. Avoiding that help is a sign that you don't want to progress, you don't want to improve- you just want to remain in your sins and expect to not have to face the consequences.

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Leah: Doesn't this send the message, though....just go ahead and have sex if you want....all you have to do to make it "right" is have a civil marriage, wait a year to get sealed in the Temple. Why is there never any expectation that people either actually - gasp! - NOT have sex so they can have a Temple marriage from the get-go...or....never any counsel to stop the sex, repent, live chastely for a year and then get married in the Temple? I've seen people in other faiths manage to that.

Heck no, it does not send that message. Getting married civilly does NOT make it right. However, it does stop the sinning behavior, but it doesn't necessarily change hearts. There is still repentance to be done.

I think it's ridiculous to try to be abstinent for a year or so after having had sex many times. Getting married is taking responsibility! (This is only when the couple really should be getting married.) What if a couple is good for a few months and then mess up again? They have to start the clock all over. If they had been married, the clock would not start over and they could be on their way to to temple sooner.

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We in the church tend to give ourselves whiplash over this subject. All our energies are devoted to raising our kids to wait for marriage. We wax zealous about the benefits and blessings that come. We warn and foretell difficulties and point to stories of hardships (like the OP) about what happens when you don't wait for marriage.

But when an individual comes to us having crossed that line, then all the zealous attempts to prevent it is pretty much worth squat. We're no longer dealing with a young chaste person who we worry may fall into temptation. Now we're dealing with a very different situation. The line is crossed. The life is different. Now we're no longer in "maximize your blessings" mode, we're in "you can still be blessed if only you'll" mode. The message now is about love and acceptance and repentance. No really - there are blessings and advantages to being married.

Some of us avoid the whiplash, and want to somehow take our frustrations out on the person in the situation. We want to make their lives harder, to make sure their example is properly horrifying to the still-chaste folks out there. We want to see their struggles and we want them to be horrible enough, that we can use them as an example to others. When we do this, we gravely sin against them.

No really - getting out of a sinful state into a non-sinful state - it really is a desirable thing - even here.

To those worried about the message that sends to the still-chaste folks out there, I'd just suggest showing them the OP posting history, and asking "Do you think this lady sounds happy? Do you think she figures that sex before marriage is 'no big thing'?"

Actually, hey moocow - if you're still reading the thread, would you say something to our youth? I can only guess - but since you're actually there, what advice do you have to give young women looking at the choices you've made?

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Some of us avoid the whiplash, and want to somehow take our frustrations out on the person in the situation. We want to make their lives harder, to make sure their example is properly horrifying to the still-chaste folks out there. We want to see their struggles and we want them to be horrible enough, that we can use them as an example to others. When we do this, we gravely sin against them.

No, no... some of us just want to make sure she doesn't make an even bigger mistake by marrying somebody just so she can feel better about having sex...

Sexual relationships - man - it clouds the brain. The OP just had a guy 3 years ago she felt confident enough that will be her lifelong partner so she went into a sexual relationship only to see it fall down the wayside. I'd hate for this to happen again when they've been married... divorce is not a walk in the park. Especially when children come into the picture.

A lot of times, there's a reason why a guy who agreed to an Honor Code do not bother to abide by it or feel it important enough to face up to its consequences ... it's a red flag in a relationship. All I'm saying is... uncloud that brain and be sure about what you're doing.

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I agree with Tipman and everyone else. I would suggest getting married as soon as possible. If he isn't wanting a civil marriage then you need to be strong enough to make the right choices. I hope you have made an appt to see the Bishop. I know several people ( a couple of BILs and people fron a previous ward.)who got a civil marriage and then a year later they were sealed in the Temple.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi,

I don't know why I haven't posted a reply on my own thread for awhile. I agree with what somebody said. My story is not an example of someone who gets away with having premarital sex and everything works out fine. You're right. I've been dealing with this issue for years and still have never found happiness. I'm no closer to getting married and moving on with my life than I was when I graduated High School. My boyfriend is not going to marry me civilly and the temple is only 2 blocks away from my house, but seems much further than that sometimes.

So if I had to say anything to the youth, I would tell them that when it comes to getting into a relationship, there is no boy so cute or so desirable that he is worth giving up your relationship with God. If a boy ever gets in the way between you and God, you need to choose who it's going to be. Which relationship is more important to you? If you can find a guy who you can love while still building your relationship with Christ, then you can't go wrong.

My boyfriend continues to put off making any decision. I must say, we have been improving though. I haven't made an appointment with the bishop. I will update you with any changes.

Some more info: His job requires him to hold a current temple recommend. And for some reason he thinks his job is the only job on the planet and if he loses it, life will end. I don't know, I'm tired and frustrated with the whole thing. That's why I post on here.

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Hi,

I don't know why I haven't posted a reply on my own thread for awhile. I agree with what somebody said. My story is not an example of someone who gets away with having premarital sex and everything works out fine. You're right. I've been dealing with this issue for years and still have never found happiness. I'm no closer to getting married and moving on with my life than I was when I graduated High School. My boyfriend is not going to marry me civilly and the temple is only 2 blocks away from my house, but seems much further than that sometimes.

So if I had to say anything to the youth, I would tell them that when it comes to getting into a relationship, there is no boy so cute or so desirable that he is worth giving up your relationship with God. If a boy ever gets in the way between you and God, you need to choose who it's going to be. Which relationship is more important to you? If you can find a guy who you can love while still building your relationship with Christ, then you can't go wrong.

My boyfriend continues to put off making any decision. I must say, we have been improving though. I haven't made an appointment with the bishop. I will update you with any changes.

Some more info: His job requires him to hold a current temple recommend. And for some reason he thinks his job is the only job on the planet and if he loses it, life will end. I don't know, I'm tired and frustrated with the whole thing. That's why I post on here.

Good evening moocow. I hope you are well! :)

I was reading out of George Albert Smith lesson book and I thought it pertinent to your situation. It is President Smith speaking, so take it as advice from him, a prophet. I hope you receive it in the spirit of charity in which it is given:

"If we are living as we know that we should we are entitled to the whispering of a still small voice calling attention to danger, saying this is the pathway of safety, walk ye in it. … If we have erred in our conduct the voice will whisper to us ‘turn back, you have made a mistake; you have disregarded the advice of your Heavenly Father.’ Turn from the error of your way while there is yet time, for if you go too far from the right path you will not hear the voice and you may be hopelessly lost. …

“My advice to you is to get the Spirit of God and keep it and the only way we will retain it is by living near him, by keeping his commandments. … Listen to the still small voice that will always direct you if you are worthy of it in a path that means eternal happiness" (President George Albert Smith; Source).

Kind Regards,

Finrock

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...My boyfriend is not going to marry me civilly and the temple is only 2 blocks away from my house, but seems much further than that sometimes.

My boyfriend continues to put off making any decision. I must say, we have been improving though. I haven't made an appointment with the bishop. I will update you with any changes.

Some more info: His job requires him to hold a current temple recommend. And for some reason he thinks his job is the only job on the planet and if he loses it, life will end. I don't know, I'm tired and frustrated with the whole thing. That's why I post on here.

moocow, it looks like you must start making decisions for yourself. You must decide how you want your relationship with your boyfriend to progress. Even after all his indecisiveness you still want to spend the rest of your life with him, than it is you that will have to be strong and be determined to make the big change in your life. Although I must say that if your boyfriend is this way now, chances are good he would still handle other important decisions the same way even if you were married. So make sure that he is the right guy for you and that you can see a happy future with him.

M.

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I would end it with him and talk to the bishop yourself. He should do the same, no person is worth living in sin. That being said, he sounds the same as me a few months ago, he's more scared of his pride being injured than anything else. Once you've talked to the bishop and have repented, if he has done the same then you can get back together and get married. Problems like these cant be fixed together.

Edited by James_Fryman
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Hi,

I don't know why I haven't posted a reply on my own thread for awhile. I agree with what somebody said. My story is not an example of someone who gets away with having premarital sex and everything works out fine. You're right. I've been dealing with this issue for years and still have never found happiness. I'm no closer to getting married and moving on with my life than I was when I graduated High School. My boyfriend is not going to marry me civilly and the temple is only 2 blocks away from my house, but seems much further than that sometimes.

So if I had to say anything to the youth, I would tell them that when it comes to getting into a relationship, there is no boy so cute or so desirable that he is worth giving up your relationship with God. If a boy ever gets in the way between you and God, you need to choose who it's going to be. Which relationship is more important to you? If you can find a guy who you can love while still building your relationship with Christ, then you can't go wrong.

My boyfriend continues to put off making any decision. I must say, we have been improving though. I haven't made an appointment with the bishop. I will update you with any changes.

Some more info: His job requires him to hold a current temple recommend. And for some reason he thinks his job is the only job on the planet and if he loses it, life will end. I don't know, I'm tired and frustrated with the whole thing. That's why I post on here.

Being tired and frustrated is a good place to be. It calls us to action!

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Easy for me to say, but would not be easy for you to do...but... drop the guy. If he has any respect for you, his employer (the church), and God, he would do the right thing. We all have our problems, but when that problem is being dishonest to your employer and lying, disrespecting the daughter of God that you are, and being dishonest to Christ and his covenants all because of his pride? Ditch him. I do not judge his heart, but is this the guy you really want to be with?

I confronted a family member a while back cheating on his spouse. I caught him red handed in her car. Talked to him right then. Told him that he needed to correct this and tell his wife what had been going on (which he claimed was just hand holding...right). Out of fear he said he would. I told him if he didnt I would because I had respect for his spouse and didnt believe she deserved that. Months went by and he never talked to her about it. She ended up talking to another family member that was with me concerned for her husband. This is when we knew he never talked about it and we told her. He also worked for the Church. They ended up working it out for now. But is this the type of person you want to be with? Love has no bounds, but coventants sure do.

I cannot tell you how that damaged the respect I have for this family member. If you do not act, I doubt he ever will.

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