Job Hunt Woes

[JudoMinja]

I've read that story before, but it's been a long time, and re-reading it right now was great. Thank you! :) I actually have something in my life to compare it to now, unlike the first time I read the story when I hadn't really been through any major changes.

I can honestly say that I am a lot like "Scurry" in the story. However, this situation that brought me hear to vent revealed that my typical scurrying tactics weren't working, and I had to change them. I thought that getting the degree was all I had to do- I'd been misinformed and was scurrying in the wrong direction, and I think that's why I've had such a hard time getting any applications to go to the interview stage. I'd been applying to things like zookeeper jobs, park ranger jobs, museum curator jobs... and they kept telling me that others more qualified were getting the interviews. Then I applied to a wildlife rehabilitator position, and got the overqualified letter. I thought- if I'm overqualified to work at a rehabilitation center, what would I have to do to open my own?

When I went through the change that took me away from college and the setting with all my "cheese"- a great place to volunteer, great wildlife jobs, great friends, great schooling, etc. I quickly scurried into adapt mode and found what work I could and did what I needed to do to finish my degree, thinking that would lead me "new cheese". But I have nowhere to volunteer working with wildlife here. Nobody to network with. All the "new cheese" is too far away and too hard to get to. I thought my scurrying was enough to get me there, but I've been getting frustrated.

When I got the letter back for the job that said I was OVERqualified, right before I wrote my little vent on here I thought to myself "What am I doing wrong? This was the 'perfect' position, I've been doing everything I thought I was supposed to be doing... They should have at least wanted to interview me. I thought if I kept scurrying this direction and remained patient, I'd eventually get something." So, I took a step back and decided to backtrack- to look at where I wanted to end up from square one. I looked up what I would need to do to start a wildlife rehabilitation center, and the only thing I am missing is a permit. I have all the know-how, the required experience from past jobs and volunteering while I was going to college- but first I have to get certified. So, that's what I'm doing now. :)

I'm continuing my "scurrying" but now in a different direction that is more hopeful and actually has a visible goal at the end, instead of continuing to scurry in the direction I'd been going with little hope because I knew I needed to network and didn't know how I was going to be able to do that when all the jobs are so far away.

I am a scurrier. I have no fear of change, but if I don't get pointed in the right direction- I will scurry the wrong way. In adapting, I have had to become more like "sniff" so that I can figure out which way I need to scurry.

[JudoMinja]

BC: I'd say that she's doing just that: She's looking forward to how to progress and find what she wants. She's looking at getting the certification she needs, which takes place in September. In the mean time, she's willing to do other work - So long as she's concentrating on progressing towards a goal.

Yes- this is pretty much exactly what I need to keep myself going. A reachable goal. I've been feeling like I was missing a step toward my goal- like there was this big chasm I didn't know how to get over. I've been feeling like I was fulfilling all the steps toward my goals but the chasm remained in my way. A chasm I couldn't do anything about- so I had to leave it to hope and faith.

Now, I've figured out what I was missing, and the goal seems more reachable. The chasm is gone, and I think I will see more success- if for no other reason than that I feel more confident and capable, because what I'm doing doesn't seem so hopeless now that I've regained some control.

[Mahone]

Have you tried utilizing the LDS employment, staff agencies, you don't necessarily have to work in that field you major. I'm sure there are other criteria's that you've attained that can be used in other area's, honestly, your more than just what a degree offers. I don't know why our system wants us to attain degrees yet in some states people with no degrees have experience and skills equivalent to those who are studying. I know when all else fails fast, and pray, speak with the bishop. :) Best of luck to you!

This is something that has been a contentious subject for me as well. I've been working in my chosen field for 6 or 7 years now, progressing up the ranks at a reasonable pace, but I know that I've been somewhat lucky and eventually I will hit a wall without an appropriate degree. So I'm also working on my batchelors degree part time, which is costing me a fair amount of money and an awful lot of time which I don't have a lot of right now, and yet I'm "learning" things that I learnt through work experience. It seems to me that I'm spending thousands of hours and pounds simply to obtain a piece of paper to verify in a different way that I know what I already know, and it doesn't give me a lot of enthusiasm. It makes me annoyed at lazy headhunters that refuse to even look past those who don't have a degree but might have an equivalent in experience.

Anyway, rant over :)

[Guest]

I have a Bachelor's degree in Computer Engineering and a Masters in Industrial Engineering. I'm a programmer. It's all I've ever wanted to do.

Do you know that there are programmers that work with me that only has certifications - no degree? And guess what - they're making peanuts compared to me. And guess what - with all the people from India coming into the US to do programming complete with Master's Degrees, pretty soon, the certification-only people are going to lose their jobs.

Don't ever think that the piece of paper you received from a college or university has no value. Its value is not only in the kind of education you receive. Its greater value is in the WEEDING OUT process of resume gathering... because, if I'm an employer and I need somebody to do a job and 2,000 people apply for it, I'm going to figure out a way to weed out the field by nit-picking on the qualifications until all I have left is 100. And that Bachelor's Degree is the first step to deciding whether you are going to be in with the 100 or not.

Perfect example - in the Philippines, most McDonald's require a Bachelor's Degree. Yes. Jobs are scarce in the Philippines so without the degree requirement, you'll have tens of thousands of applicants. The justification for the degree - it's a high-quality service industry, therefore, McDonald's servers need to speak college-level English.

Now, there are tons of people with Bachelor's Degrees in the Philippines... so, without further qualifications, you would still have thousands of applicants. So, at the McDonald's next to the hospital, not only are you required a bachelor's degree, they add a preference to those in the medical field. So, you will see students who have passed their pre-med and are working on getting their doctorate working at McDonald's. The justification - most of the regular clientele are in the medical field, therefore, somebody who can "shoot the breeze" using medical jargon is a value-add!

So now, you have 100 or less applications to go through.

But then it's a balance. In the Philippines, you don't have to pay a pre-med graduate lots of money because the hospital pays them peanuts. My brother was already doing his residency at the hospital, working the 72-hour ER shifts, and he was only making 800 pesos a month. The rent on his studio apartment was 600 pesos! He has to choose between electricity or food. So, McDonald's are willing to hire them and pay them just a tad bit more than peanuts. Now, once you get that M.D., after your name, then you can't apply at McDonald's anymore - you're overqualified. They don't want to have to pay you a lot more money to keep you working there because an M.D. can make lots of money at the hospital.

So, that's the same concept in America. If you're in a field where there are more jobs than applicants, you don't need a degree. If you're in a field where there are more applicants than jobs, go get that degree... it is easier to leave the degree off your resume if it makes you over-qualified than to have to scramble to make up for the lack of a degree when you're under-qualified.

Edited May 23, 2012 by anatess

[prisonchaplain]

I would think there would be some good government jobs in your field. Check the state websites and usajobs.gov...people actually get hired by detailed attention to their paperwork, rather than by connections with these type of positions. Blessings on your search.

[Mahone]

I have a Bachelor's degree in Computer Engineering and a Masters in Industrial Engineering. I'm a programmer. It's all I've ever wanted to do.

Do you know that there are programmers that work with me that only has certifications - no degree? And guess what - they're making peanuts compared to me. And guess what - with all the people from India coming into the US to do programming complete with Master's Degrees, pretty soon, the certification-only people are going to lose their jobs.

Don't ever think that the piece of paper you received from a college or university has no value. Its value is not only in the kind of education you receive. Its greater value is in the WEEDING OUT process of resume gathering... because, if I'm an employer and I need somebody to do a job and 2,000 people apply for it, I'm going to figure out a way to weed out the field by nit-picking on the qualifications until all I have left is 100. And that Bachelor's Degree is the first step to deciding whether you are going to be in with the 100 or not.

Perfect example - in the Philippines, most McDonald's require a Bachelor's Degree. Yes. Jobs are scarce in the Philippines so without the degree requirement, you'll have tens of thousands of applicants. The justification for the degree - it's a high-quality service industry, therefore, McDonald's servers need to speak college-level English.

Now, there are tons of people with Bachelor's Degrees in the Philippines... so, without further qualifications, you would still have thousands of applicants. So, at the McDonald's next to the hospital, not only are you required a bachelor's degree, they add a preference to those in the medical field. So, you will see students who have passed their pre-med and are working on getting their doctorate working at McDonald's. The justification - most of the regular clientele are in the medical field, therefore, somebody who can "shoot the breeze" using medical jargon is a value-add!

So now, you have 100 or less applications to go through.

But then it's a balance. In the Philippines, you don't have to pay a pre-med graduate lots of money because the hospital pays them peanuts. My brother was already doing his residency at the hospital, working the 72-hour ER shifts, and he was only making 800 pesos a month. The rent on his studio apartment was 600 pesos! He has to choose between electricity or food. So, McDonald's are willing to hire them and pay them just a tad bit more than peanuts. Now, once you get that M.D., after your name, then you can't apply at McDonald's anymore - you're overqualified. They don't want to have to pay you a lot more money to keep you working there because an M.D. can make lots of money at the hospital.

So, that's the same concept in America. If you're in a field where there are more jobs than applicants, you don't need a degree. If you're in a field where there are more applicants than jobs, go get that degree... it is easier to leave the degree off your resume if it makes you over-qualified than to have to scramble to make up for the lack of a degree when you're under-qualified.

That's the point I'm trying to make though. I realise a degree is necessary, but it's only necessary because of what headhunters perceive it to be worth (which is my opinion isn't anywhere near as much as a lot of people think it is). What I'm doing in my degree, I've already done as part of my career and I'm not really learning much. I'm only working on my degree because of what others believe it to be worth, not what I think it's worth.

[EarlJibbs]

Some have already said this. Network! Network! Network! Even with the degree, you are entering a new field with no connections. I dont know where you would go, but meet up with groups or people that are in the same line of business that you would like to get into. Establish some type of relationship.

I have some schooling under my belt, but no degree. Unless you had work experience with a degree, my experience would place me above almost all other applicants in my line of work.

I lost my job 2 years ago in some layoffs. I remembered some of the companies I worked with at the job I lost and applied with them, with specific information of people I had met and worked with and knowledge of their business directly, I reached out to individuals of companies. I scored an interview with one by actually applying on their website, the way they talked to me about me being laid off gave me fears about getting hired. But because of my specific relationship I already had with them, I got the job. This is what I think anyway. I know that I was blessed to find the job however. I was driving back from delivering my laptop to my old job when I had the miniscule thought of trying to apply where I am at now. Trust in the Lord. There is plenty of work that we could all do well, but the Lord knows those jobs that will help us and those that will not. It may not be the right time, or, I hate to say it, maybe the wrong type of work? Either way, something will work out.

[Guest]

That's the point I'm trying to make though. I realise a degree is necessary, but it's only necessary because of what headhunters perceive it to be worth (which is my opinion isn't anywhere near as much as a lot of people think it is). What I'm doing in my degree, I've already done as part of my career and I'm not really learning much. I'm only working on my degree because of what others believe it to be worth, not what I think it's worth.

In a pure free-market, the value of something is determined by what you think it is worth. For example, I have no problem paying $150 for a pair of Michael Kors shoes because the darned things are super comfortable and I have $150 to spend. Other people would think that's ridiculously over-priced because it's probably made for $2 a pop at a Chinese sweatshop. So they go buy shoes at Payless for $7.99. Now, you won't catch me dead on a Payless high heel shoe. That's a killer on my bunion! But, at the same time, I am not paying $1,000 for Jimmy Choos... that's just ridiculous. But, some women have no problem dropping $1,000 for a pair of Jimmy Choos and wouldn't be caught dead wearing Michael Kors...

So, what is the value of high-heeled shoes? Completely dependent on the person buying the shoes.

A degree is different. The value of a degree is dictated by the job market. The more jobs are available, the lesser the value of that degree. The less jobs are available, the more the value of that degree. Because, newsflash, the value of the degree is not determined by the knowledge you gained.... it is determined solely by the competition for that job. 2 people with the same experience - one with a degree, the other doesn't - they're not going to quiz you on what you know, they're going to take the degree. It's just the way it is in a competitive field. Now, of course, a degree in itself has intrinsic value. You're probably not going to learn humanities and philosophy through job experience. Perfect example in the computer field - Human-Computer Interaction is not instinctively learned by experience. Getting an Information Science degree guarantees you've learned HCI. There's a big difference between websites created with HCI knowledge and those without. That's why people with a degree has a different "salary range" than non-degreed workers. But beyond that intrinsic value, the degree has value simply because of job market competition.

Now, a degree from Harvard versus a degree from Florida Generic University... Same degree, big difference. And it's not based on knowledge...

Edited May 23, 2012 by anatess

[Mahone]

it is determined solely by the competition for that job. 2 people with the same experience - one with a degree, the other doesn't - they're not going to quiz you on what you know, they're going to take the degree. It's just the way it is in a competitive field.

I know how it works in reality, and how it works is what I'm frustrated with. Very often, a degree is listed within the requirements for a job, and there is no room for equivalent experience. If you don't have that degree, it doesn't matter how many years you've been working in that field and what you know within that field, you cannot get that job - they won't look at the rest of your resume due to the lack of one of the required items.

Now, of course, a degree in itself has intrinsic value. You're probably not going to learn humanities and philosophy through job experience. Perfect example in the computer field - Human-Computer Interaction is not instinctively learned by experience. Getting an Information Science degree guarantees you've learned HCI. There's a big difference between websites created with HCI knowledge and those without. That's why people with a degree has a different "salary range" than non-degreed workers.

I disagree. You can easily have learnt about HCI in on the job experience. Yes, you should probably start off on a lower wage because you don't already have that knowledge, but 5 to 10 years of designing websites and learning about HCI, and applying it practically in the process using knowledge gained from colleagues, personal research and simply through mistakes would make you arguably in a much better position than someone with this theoretical knowledge via a degree, but no real practical experience of using this knowledge. But many headhunters obviously disagree, or it's just easier to do their job by using a degree to shortlist? Whatever the reason, I don't believe a degree should be the be all and end of of a persons career, it's just not that simple.

This is why I'm spending a lot of time that I don't really have, and a lot of money that (in my opinion) could be better spent else where on getting this piece of paper. At the moment my experience is holding out, and I'm doing a lot better in terms of salary than most of my degreed associates, but there is a limit to how long this will carry on.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Mahone

[Guest]

I know how it works in reality, and how it works is what I'm frustrated with. Very often, a degree is listed within the requirements for a job, and there is no room for equivalent experience. If you don't have that degree, it doesn't matter how many years you've been working in that field and what you know within that field, you cannot get that job - they won't look at the rest of your resume due to the lack of one of the required items.

I disagree. You can easily have learnt about HCI in on the job experience. Yes, you should probably start off on a lower wage because you don't already have that knowledge, but 5 to 10 years of designing websites and learning about HCI, and applying it practically in the process using knowledge gained from colleagues, personal research and simply through mistakes would make you arguably in a much better position than someone with this theoretical knowledge via a degree, but no real practical experience of using this knowledge. But many headhunters obviously disagree, or it's just easier to do their job by using a degree to shortlist? Whatever the reason, I don't believe a degree should be the be all and end of of a persons career, it's just not that simple.

This is why I'm spending a lot of time that I don't really have, and a lot of money that (in my opinion) could be better spent else where on getting this piece of paper. At the moment my experience is holding out, and I'm doing a lot better in terms of salary than most of my degreed associates, but there is a limit to how long this will carry on.

No no, I'm not saying at all the experience is worthless compared to a college degree in knowledge. But, like you mention - a degree is theoretical, experience is practical. You need both. That's what I'm saying about HCI - HCI is theoretical. Technology moves so fast that HCI principles are applied differently at every stage of experience, hence what you learned out of one application may not be applicable in another application unless you learn the theory of the thing. I believe you will find a lot of the "who moved my cheese?" people are those who gained practical knowledge but hasn't grasped the theoretical so that when the cheese is moved, they can't adapt very well.

But see, anybody can gain experience by putting in years of work. But, theoretical knowledge is best gained through school and is not guaranteed by experience. So anybody who has the theory can always gain the practical experience as he works.

College students always ask - why do I have to take philosophy? I'm a programmer... what does philosophy have to do with anything? Why do I have to learn language arts? Why do I have to learn World History, Humanities, Economics, etc. etc. etc.? These are things you don't learn from experience. So one might think it's not needed in doing programming work. It's all theoretical. But actually, it is very useful in moulding a well-rounded individual that is an asset to any company.

Therefore, a company puts a lot of weight on that piece of paper when there's a lot of competition because it's an easy and cost-effective way to gauge someone's qualification to do the work. Experience - especially from another company - may not be applicable to the type of environment they are working under... it's going to be a "who moved my cheese?" moment. This experience can only be fleshed out through technical interviews - and they won't do that to thousands of applicants.

Make sense?

[JudoMinja]

Mahone and anatess- Thank you for voicing this little debate here. :) It's one I've had going in my head on many occassions. Due to the nature of my degree, there are some things I learned in my classes that I would never have learned outside the classroom, because I never would have been able to arrange the experiences or dig up the necessary information. So, I know my degree has personal intrinsic worth in that regard- but the number of classes I had to take that were simply repeats of information I'd already learned on my own or in ANOTHER REQUIRED CLASS was rediculous.

And now, as I'm trying to enter my chosen field, I'm finding that my degree isn't as valued by employers as I thought it would be. Where I'm trying to work, I'm finding the opposite of most job markets- those doing the hiring really just don't care about the degree and prefer someone who has experience. Oh, higher up the ranking a degree matters- like if I wanted to move into a position involving actual management of other wildlife employees. But just trying to get an entry position, people are more concerned about whether you have actual experience working with wildlife. I have some- due to my volunteer hours and student positions while I was going to college- but not enough to crack the case if I haven't networked myself into the place where I'm trying to apply.

In many ways, I've been feeling like getting my degree was a useless waste of time. But then, I think about the experience it DID gain me, how it is going to help me down the road when I finally get my foot in the door, and the intrinsic value I gained from some of the classes... I know that my degree wasn't a waste. It just wasn't what I thought it would be. And while that is a disappointment, I've had to adjust my view and expectations to fit reality. And I'm okay with that.

[Guest]

BACKROADS, JUDO! I found out about another guy "making it happen" in a dreary job market!

My 2 boys did poorly in math this year. Wait, okay, I'm Asian. Coming home with a B in math is doing poorly. :)

So, I went a-searching for math camp. And guess what I found out... there's this guy in Texas that is offering Math Camps in his home! He is set up not as a remedial class but as an enrichment program with the objective of making math fun to get kids loving math on their own. He has 30-years worth of math instruction experience plus the certs and degrees and such. Each camp is 3 hours a day, 5 days a week. So, he holds 2 camps - one in the morning for middle-school age and one in the afternoon for elementary school age. The camps are like math clubs - they learn number sense, etc. etc., and by the end of the week you should be ready to take on competition. Kids are encouraged to join math clubs at their schools to keep that energy going. Each week is a different curriculum, so a camper can register for a week or multiple weeks. And each week is $250 per kid, and each camp has 6 students. So, that's 12 students a week, $250/student. It's quite a bit of money! The guy is self-advertised - I just found him through google!

So, Backroads, dunno what your specialty is but you can probably do something like this! And Judo, you can probably create a science/biology curriculum!