Vegetarianism?


zuko725
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Im not sure if I'm posting this is in the right section but this is a topic that has been bugging me for me awhile.

I'm not a vegetarian but I have been cutting back my consumption of meat and I'm open to the idea of someday not eating meat at all. The main thing that is holding me back from doing this is a scripture I remember reading in D&C.

I don't remember what section in D&C it was or what the exact wording was but I remember it saying something about restraining from consuming meat was not of God. This led me to believe that vegetarianism is "wrong" (for lack of a better word).

The thing is, I can't find where I read this scripture anywhere and I'm beginning to think I imagined it or something. Does anyone have any idea what scripture I'm talking about or if they know the official stance on vegetarianism?

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1 Tim 4:1-3 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth."

D&C 49:18 "And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God."

personally I feel that it is more holy to animals rather than plants. I know that the plants have never sinned. However I believe that animals have agency and are more likely to have sinned than plants. So I'm a meatetarian - I only eat meat. ;)

But if you notice that it is not condemning NOT eating meat, it is only condemned to command other not to eat meat. So by the letter it can be a personal choice just not a decree to others.

Edited by Onhech
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However I came across this scipture in Gen JST Genesis 9:10–11:

But, the blood of all flesh which I have given you for meat, shall be shed upon the ground, which taketh life thereof, and the blood ye shall not eat. And surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands.

So that holds a lot of responsibly for us. Eat the leftover meat on your plate :) This is also has harsh implications for hunters.

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This is also has harsh implications for hunters.

Yeah, to my mind, singling out hunters here sort of misses the point. The point is, of course, that whether you go hunt your own deer, or hit the drive through at Taco Bell, a living creature's blood was shed. Critters were equally alive, whether you microwaved a breakfast burrito made out of them, or hauled them down a mountain to your truck.

In other words, if someone figure this verse applies to hunters, but it doesn't apply to them because they get their meat from a store or restaurant, that someone may need to do a bit more thinking on the subject.

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An interesting note, although this may be off topic, and I of course lack a source atm but I saw something or the other somewhere that noted that while vegetarians overall have a lower cancer rate than their meat eating friends, they had a 30 something precent higher chance for specific types of cancers than those who indulge in meat.

My personal opinion, veggies are great, but have a bite of meat from time to time.

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One thing I learned is that if you choose to be a vegetarian, you would have to eat twice the amount of iron to compensate for the iron you would not be getting from eating meat. In addition, vegetarians who eat dairy with their fruits and vegetables are hurting themselves as dairy blocks the absorption of iron.

Therefore you run the risk of becoming anemic.

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OP, here are my 2 cents as a Mormon who lived for 2 years as a vegetarian, and 4 years now as a flexitarian.

1) Trust the Word of Wisdom. Notice that it puts plants first in what to eat. Also notice that it has multiple layers of meat-eating, going from the lowest and most popular, "eat meat sparingly", to mentioning that the birds on the land and in the air are created not to be eaten except for times of famine.

2) Eating meat is allowed, but the Scriptures also show a good support for a vegetarian diet:

* Adam and Eve were not told they could eat meat until after the fall.

* After the fall God is mentioned in the JST in Genesis to saythat we are not to kill animals unless it is necessary as food or for clothing. We are to be held accountable for our actions in that regard. This happened long before the Law of Moses was instituted. (No reason to bash on hunters, though, even when they simply sell their game. In my opinion the meat industry is much worse.)

* In the lists of what to eat, fish is never mentioned. Interestingly, the Savior is only ever mentioned as eating fish during the 4 gospels. (Some people refer to him eating lamb at the passover, however, at the one time this is described he makes an exception from the passover by instituting the sacrament in stead.)

* In D&C 49:18, a revelation is given directed to the Shakers saying that he who forbids to ABSTAIN from meat is not called of God. Which means that vegetarianism is not something you can say is bad. However, study aids were added in 1979 that uses a couple of random references to make it seem like there is reason to believe that the word "forbid" is actually meant to mean the opposite, to bid. That's not how English works, and it is not how the Shakers heard it (who only forbade swine meat, though all other kinds were okay, though many did choose to live as vegetarians).

What about science? You should be able to Google your way to the evidence that a plants-first diet is great. Pam mentions iron above. Others have mentioned protein. Almost always this is an excuse since major universities and major studies already clarified that anyone eating a BALANCED diet including as many different vegetables as possible will never have a problem. This is a problem in third world countries, not OECD ones.

Vegetarianism is great. I have a testimony that it brings you the spiritual blessings of the word of w widom

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My only problem is with anything ending with 'ism'. Most people equate 'vegetarianism' with vegans (probably the same thing) and are easily labeling themselves as such.

I don't know what it is, but when I hear that someone is "vegetarian", I hear some kind of tone in the voice of a dietary superiority complex... and now everyone else has to help that person observe their superior diet.

If it were me, I wouldn't subscribe to the 'ideals' of vegans. I would simply abstain from meats... as you are comfortable doing so. If anyone asks why, you can simply say that you're "cutting back" or don't feel that it's healthy. Have your own viewpoint and opinion without subscribing to others ideas on the subject.

But in my mind, vegetanarism... or any other kind of 'ism'... can get in the way of people seeing us for who we truly are. Try not to label yourself, or have others label you for you.

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That's not about the practice itself, though. It's about interpretation of semantics.

The word "vegetarian" was probably invented because there was a need to describe a certain type of behavior to make it referable in oppositio to other types of behavior. The same goes for norms like "heterosexual". We need these words because there is an opposition in all things.

Sure, they can be like little churches on their own. I dislike that and agree with you that labeling things can have a downside, a distraction from seeing people from who they are.

But it is not wrong for me to use the word 'vegetarian' or 'flexitarian' about myself to make others understand how I differ. The label itself is supposed to be a help in defining that. If people do not know what it means, I will just explain it. It's not an organization. Nobody is the pope of the vegetarian church. It's just a word which is in popular use, a tool. :D

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I don't know what it is, but when I hear that someone is "vegetarian", I hear some kind of tone in the voice of a dietary superiority complex... and now everyone else has to help that person observe their superior diet.

How do you know if someone in the room is a vegetarian?

Don't worry, they'll tell you. :lol:

Sorry, I hope that doesn't offend, OP. Eating meat is alright. Not eating meat is better. So while it's great to not eat it (or to at least eat it sparingly), preaching that meat should not be eaten is not in accordance with God's word.

There are times when eating meat is actually more healthy. As one of the largest examples, children require cholesterol (and high amounts of fat) for proper neural development. Cholesterol, especially, is vital for proper myalinization of the brain and nervous system, which happens until they are about 2-3 years old. Once they are weaned, vegetarian diets cannot provide cholesterol, and are more difficult to provide the high levels of fat (about 1/3 of their calories should be from fat). Lots of avocados can take care of the fat, but cholesterol... there's only one source of that, and it's animals.

However, with those exceptions, there are very few dietary problems that can't be fixed with a proper, well-done vegetarian diet.

These days, because everything is fortified, and we have availability of large varieties of fruits and vegetables all year long thanks to international shipping, a good, balanced vegetarian diet is much more possible than in years past. However, before fortification of foods, the number of people who suffered and even died from nutritional deficiencies in the USA is quite surprising. And that's not from starvation or lack of calories, but from deficiencies in various vitamins and minerals.

Edited by ClickyClack
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Human beings are designed to use animal fats and protein. High vegetable and grain diets came around with the advent of agriculture. But our bodies have not adapted to this type of diet alone. This has been made worse by the ultra-processed foods of today.

As mentioned earlier in the thread we are forbidden from condemning non-meat diets. Which I think is a wise thing.

Section 89 teaches us to use meat sparingly. But there is some confusion about the following verse:

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

The comma after used mysteriously appeared in the 1980's printing of the scriptures. In the original revelation and subsequent publications the comma is absent. The modern version tells us to only eat meat during winter, cold, of famine.

However the original verse read:

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

which actually states the exact opposite that meats may be eaten at all times not only winter, cold, or famine.

I know for me personally as I have tried to live by the scriptures this verse cause me some confusion. But I have been able to apply it properly in my life now that I know its correct wording. I state this because there may be others who find it useful.

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My only problem is with anything ending with 'ism'. Most people equate 'vegetarianism' with vegans (probably the same thing) and are easily labeling themselves as such.

I don't know what it is, but when I hear that someone is "vegetarian", I hear some kind of tone in the voice of a dietary superiority complex... and now everyone else has to help that person observe their superior diet.

If it were me, I wouldn't subscribe to the 'ideals' of vegans. I would simply abstain from meats... as you are comfortable doing so. If anyone asks why, you can simply say that you're "cutting back" or don't feel that it's healthy. Have your own viewpoint and opinion without subscribing to others ideas on the subject.

But in my mind, vegetanarism... or any other kind of 'ism'... can get in the way of people seeing us for who we truly are. Try not to label yourself, or have others label you for you.

ism

noun

a distinctive doctrine, theory, system, or practice: This is the age of isms.

And for the record, most vegans and vegetarians do what they do because they're opposed to the abuse that goes on in factory farms, not because they have something against using animal products.

Edited by PrinceofLight2000
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As a vegetarian of 10 years and hearing just about every scripture in the book about this or that reason for eating meat, I can honestly say you are equally fine, doctrinally, in eating meat or not. It's a personal choice. Some people love the diet, some people don't. Personally, I enjoy it quite a bit. It's taught me a ton about nutrition and I'm very healthy. It works for me and it honestly did not take much work at all (a little self control and a willingness to try new foods were the biggies). Being Vegan would probably take a little more work.

I don't know what it is, but when I hear that someone is "vegetarian", I hear some kind of tone in the voice of a dietary superiority complex... and now everyone else has to help that person observe their superior diet.

I've never met a vegetarian who uses it in a tone of superiority. It just is....and it cuts out a lot of eating confusion at the dinner table. There's no problem with labeling yourself. Labels can be quite useful.

Prince of light,

Minor correction....vegetarians do not do it mostly for issues with farm factories. There are diverse reasons people go veg: Health, environment, animal rights, social reasons and religion being among the big ones.

With luv,

BD

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The comma after used mysteriously appeared in the 1980's printing of the scriptures. In the original revelation and subsequent publications the comma is absent. The modern version tells us to only eat meat during winter, cold, of famine.

However the original verse read:

which actually states the exact opposite that meats may be eaten at all times not only winter, cold, or famine.

But of course that does not even affect the most meat-restrictive part of the Word of Wisdom:

14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

Since "grain" is not plural, the only plurality that verse 15 could refer to is the list in verse 14, "the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth". (It is not possible bending it to be about the grain, either. It would fundamentally change important parts of the entire revelation, not just this verse alone.)

Thus, verse 15 says "and [the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth] hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger."

(This is worth emphasizing because people seem to willfully ignore it, which they cannot do. But of course it is worth remembering that the WoW is a principle with a promise for this part, and that God also did allow meat to be eaten. It just shows his intention really clearly, and as the revelation mentions at the end of the chapter, great blessings are available. :D)

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How do you know if someone in the room is a vegetarian?

Don't worry, they'll tell you. :lol:

:D

After my mission I was a flight attendant for 4 years. I would look at the special vegetarian meals on my flight (back when they served meals) and I could walk up and hand the meal to the vegetarian without looking at the flight manifest. In 4 years I never missed the person I guessed to be the vegetarian.

There is something unhealthy in the palor of the skin that gives them away and I could idenitify them just by looking at them.

My wife was a vegetarian while growing up and all thru her mission. Now she eats Chicken and Turkey and Seafood.

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There is something unhealthy in the palor of the skin that gives them away and I could idenitify them just by looking at them.

This is probably applicable to caucasians.

My friend from work is from India and his particular religion is not only vegan but only vegetables that grow above ground - so no peanuts or potatoes either. When we go to the Japanese Steakhouse hibachi grill, the cook has to cook his food first, before any meat is put on the grill.

Guy is as dark as dark can get without being black. No palor in sight. And the guy is skinny sure, but not overly so. Just your regular tiny Asian dude.

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Yeah, to my mind, singling out hunters here sort of misses the point. The point is, of course, that whether you go hunt your own deer, or hit the drive through at Taco Bell, a living creature's blood was shed. Critters were equally alive, whether you microwaved a breakfast burrito made out of them, or hauled them down a mountain to your truck.

In other words, if someone figure this verse applies to hunters, but it doesn't apply to them because they get their meat from a store or restaurant, that someone may need to do a bit more thinking on the subject.

I never said that It didn't apply to every type of consumption of meat. In fact my first comment about leftovers was my original point while hunting was a side note.

The implications I was talking about with hunting are as follows.

While those who eat meat are accountable for the food they eat I feel that these verses have some heavy additional implications to those who make game of the death of animals.

Hunting in most 1st world counties has become a sport and a recreational activity. People do not generally hunt because they lack food; It is usually more expensive and less convenient to hunt than it is to buy the meat from others. Hunting is now primarily for the enjoyment of finding and killing animals. The scriptures say that "surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives". So are these men doing this for meat or for the experience of hunting and killing? I would think for most it is at least a little of both. But I would also assume that most gain pleasure out of the act of hunting and that this is their primary reason for hunting.

Killing an animal is not inherently good or evil, it is the heart of the killer that determines that, but ask yourself "why do you hunt?" If the answer is not "food" than you could be in trouble. If the answer is "fun" than I think you are in trouble. If you kill Gods living creations for "fun" I would suggest rethinking your life and motivations. That sounds like bloodlust to me.

I seem to be in some good company on this:

Joseph F. Smith:

(1) "I do not believe any man should kill animals or birds unless he 'needs' them for food...I think it is wicked for men to thirst in their souls to kill almost everything which possess life. It is wrong, and I have been surprised at prominent men who I have seen whose very souls seemed to be athirst for the shedding of animal blood. They go off hunting deer, antelope, elk, anything they can find, and what for? 'Just for the fun of it!' I am a firm believer... in the simple words of one of the poets: 'Take not away the life you cannot give, for all things have an equal right to live'." (Juvenile Instructor 48:309)

(2)“… The unnecessary destruction of life is a distinct spiritual loss to the human family. Men cannot worship the Creator and look with careless indifference upon his creations. The love of all life helps man to the enjoyment of a better life. It exalts the spiritual nature of those in need of divine favor.” (Juvenile Instructor. April, 1927)

(3)“I never could see why a man should be imbued with a blood-thirsty desire to kill and destroy animal life. I have known men-and they still exist among us-who enjoy what is, to them, the “sport” of hunting birds and slaying them by the hundreds, and who will come in after a day’s sport, boasting of how many harmless birds they have had the skill to slaughter, and day after day, during the season when it is lawful for men to hunt and kill (the birds having had a season of protection and not apprehending danger) go out by scores or hundreds, and you may hear their guns early in the morning on the day of the opening, as if great armies had met in battle; and the terrible work of slaughtering the innocent birds goes on” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, vol 4, p.45).

George Q. Cannon:

“We should by every means in our power impress upon the rising generation the value of life and how dreadful a sin it is to take life. The lives of animals even should be held far more sacred than they are. Young people should be taught to be very merciful to the brute creation and not to take life wantonly or for sport. The practice of hunting and killing game merely for sport should be frowned upon and not encouraged among us. God has created the fowls and the beasts for man’s convenience and comfort and for his consumption at proper times and under proper circumstances; but he does not justify men in wantonly killing those creatures which He has made and with which He has supplied the earth” (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth: Discourses and Writings of President George Q. Cannon, selected, arranged, and edited by Jerreld L. Newquist, p.24)

Spencer W. Kimball:

“Now, I also would like to add some of my feelings concerning the unnecessary shedding of blood and destruction of life. I think that every soul should be impressed by the sentiments that have been expressed here by the prophets. And not less with reference to the killing of innocent birds is the wildlife of our country that live upon the vermin that are indeed enemies to the farmer and to mankind. It is not only wicked to destroy them, it is a shame, in my opinion. I think that this principle should extend not only to the bird life but to the life of all animals” (President Spencer W. Kimball, Fundamental Principles to Ponder and Live, Ensign (CR), November 1978, p.43).

Lorenzo Snow:

“Killing for sport is wrong…One day, to while away the slowly passing hours, I took my gun with the intention of indulging in a little amusement in hunting turkeys… From boyhood I had been particularly, and I may say strangely, attached to a gun. Hunting in the forests of Ohio was a pastime that to me possessed the most fascinating attractions. It never occurred to my mind that it was wrong-that indulging in “what was sport to me was death to them;” that in shooting turkeys, squirrels, etc., I was taking life that I could not give; therefore I indulged in the murderous sport without the least compunction of conscience.” (Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, p.188-189)

Hugh Nibley (keep in mind is NOT a general authority):

(1)"We have taught our children by precept and example that every living thing exists to be converted into cash and that whatever would not yield return should be quickly exterminated to make way for the creatures that do. . . . I have heard important Latter-day Saint leaders express this philosophy and have seen bishops and stake presidents teaching their reluctant boys the delights of hunting for pleasure."

The earth is our enemy, I was taught. Does it not bring forth noxious weeds to afflict and torment man? And who cared if his allergies were the result of the Fall, man's own doing, and could be corrected only when he corrects himself? But one thing worried me: If God were to despise all things beneath him, as we do, where would that leave us?

(Introduction to "Subduing the Earth," 85-86)

(2)[There has always been a philosophy of hunting peculiar to Latter-day Saints.]. . . . It's a frontier attitude, conquering the West, as it were. But of course the presidency of the Church has consistently bucked that attitude. Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith, and then President Kimball have all talked against it. Joseph Smith never carry anything larger than a pen knife. He who carries a gun will surely regret it. Brigham Young said if the Mormon people weren't so ignorant, they'd be damned for their treatment of the creatures. President Kimball's bicentennial talk against hunting was very exciting but it had almost no effect whatsoever. They swept it under the rug. We say a prophet is a prophet and then freely interpret how we want.

("Nibley Talks about Contemporary Issues," 12)

---

So once again, I am not condemning hunters, I don't know your motivations, but I do condemn hunting for the "sport" or "fun" of it. This coming from a guy who has been hunting, has family who hunts, and who has been exposed to a lot of hunting.

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Spencer W. Kimball:

“Now, I also would like to add some of my feelings concerning the unnecessary shedding of blood and destruction of life. I think that every soul should be impressed by the sentiments that have been expressed here by the prophets. And not less with reference to the killing of innocent birds is the wildlife of our country that live upon the vermin that are indeed enemies to the farmer and to mankind. It is not only wicked to destroy them, it is a shame, in my opinion. I think that this principle should extend not only to the bird life but to the life of all animals” (President Spencer W. Kimball, Fundamental Principles to Ponder and Live, Ensign (CR), November 1978, p.43).

hmmm, maybe I should stop killing the house sparrows that nest in my blue bird boxes?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thus, verse 15 says "and [the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth] hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger."

I don't know what the Word of Wisdom is, but in the gospels, Jesus eats fish and lamb.

So, WWJD? (What would Jesus Digest?)

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