Free Will, Agency and Choice


Traveler
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The difference between the example you give here and life, though, is that the agent (in life) can act outside the "guidelines". That is how most people see the word "agency" is the ability and the responsibility that comes with either acting within the guidelines or outside of them. Even if they don't act outside the guidelines, the opportunity to act outside the guidelines is there, giving value to their actions.

Where is the opposition that must needs be in all things if the agent in mortality can "only" act within the guidelines given? Where is the option for going against the guidelines? Where is the option to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil if the guideline is to not eat of that tree?

We are dual beings in this life, both spirit and body. Consider the idea that we are "double agents", at least for a period of time .... let that stew around for a while.

Help we out here - Can you name something specific or general - that we mortals - in life - as agents of G-d or double agents or whatever, can act upon; that is outside the limits or our agency (as you imply) that Jesus has not already taken full liability for?

The Traveler

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All I know is, I just signed a real estate "agency agreement" with my realtor. She is my agent. If she chooses well, she reaps none of the rewards--I do. If she chooses poorly, she suffers none of the consequences--I do.

Agency isn't what lets us make choices. It just makes our choices mean something.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Help we out here - Can you name something specific or general - that we mortals - in life - as agents of G-d or double agents or whatever, can act upon; that is outside the limits or our agency (as you imply) that Jesus has not already taken full liability for?

The Traveler

I didn't imply "limits", that is your term. I used your term, "guidelines". It would be easier to have a conversation about these things if you didn't keep changing the terms or reading more into what I am saying.

If the "guideline", for example, is to be a good steward and to return the loan with usury, then acting outside those guidelines would be to hide the talent or not be a good steward, to not take responsibility or accountability for our stewardship. Being a good steward not only means to be obedient, (as you have pointed out previously and I have agreed with that one aspect of obedience and blessings associated with the obedience) but it also means having the ability to choose actions that show where our loyalty lies, to the Lord or self gratification or carnal desires by returning our loan with usury. In other words, being held accountable for our callings, magnifying our calling, being anxiously engaged in a good cause, seeking out things that are praiseworthy and of good report, using and increasing our talents etc. And as stated in the scripture, we don't have to be told what to do in every situation, this is what being anxiously engaged in a good cause implies. That can only happen when there is free will and then moral agency allows us to receive notoriety or value for those actions.

And I never said that Jesus hasn't taken full liability for sins. But we do become stewards (which is a far better word than agent) over the Lord's vineyard. A steward has to answer to his Lord and account for what he/she has done with their stewardship. Without accountability there is no agency.

Let me ask you something, how is it possible that anyone will be punished for their own sins, as we believe stated in the articles of faith, if they are not accountable for their choices and actions? How can we have punishment without liability?

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Agency isn't what lets us make choices. It just makes our choices mean something.

Exactly! And, it can only mean something if there is accountability and responsibility.

Rocks are obedient, our potential to surpass rocks in glory comes from our moral agency and ability to be held accountable for our choices. Obedience without having a consequence to the obedience or disobedience (accountability) does not provide the "meaning something".

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You really should spend some time trying to understand the term agency before you add your personal opinion.

I have for over 20 years, so be careful what you say.

Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to understand what you know. In all that you've said, are you referring to the concept of agents and agency in a general sense and then applying those principles to the gospel, or are you referring to the specific way in which our scriptures use those words and not going beyond what is actually said?

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Agency applies to each and everyone of us as individuals, it's not a term to compare but find common with others. Agency builds individuals faith or deteriorates their faith regarding the outcomes of the decisions made. That in mind, the church teaches us to discipline ourselves with moral agency by refraining from the worldly ways, keeping the Words of Wisdoms, utilizing the ordained leaders in the church for spiritual guidance even to improve our own understandings and/or spiritual welfare.

It's really not that complicated if you think about it, I think that over analyzing agency is adding an eludeness to corrupt the main idea of faith and it's relationship to agency. Faith and agency are key ingredients that members of the church can only build from within themselves, however, people who are logical cannot depend on faith because they need reasoning. Reasoning is oppositions in all things, faith is a higher understanding hence allowing those to make decision based on beliefs, agency, and moral agency to their likings.

For example, there is one person who is doing bad and is suffering spiritually for all their wrong doings (experiences of agency) still possessing hope that he/she can be free from the bondage of his/her iniquity and there is another individual who observes the one suffering and learns from him/her through their example by not commiting it themselves....and that's moral agency. We are human though and are prone to repeat history because of our weaknesses, thankfully we have Christ's Atonement. Even those who've observed and learned from the others burden will still suffer but in another way because "it's Just" or "Equal" that we all suffer in this condemned world.

Solution: We must strengthen our relationship with Heavenly Father so that we can remain in tune with the Holy spirit. The power of testimony will sustain us when answers temporarily elude us. The truth of the Gospel-the divinity of Jesus Christ, the commission of Joseph Smith, and the Power of the Book Of Mormon while often supported (and regularly defended) by secular evidence, can fully be recognized only by the power of the Holy Spirit. "And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

-Micheal R. Ash-

fairlds.org

Agency is a gift that works accordingly with our faith.

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The general principle of agency is found all over the gospel. I have no problem with that. I'm just pointing out that the way the scriptures use the words agent and agency is something different from the type of agency where we represent God or vice-versa.

The scriptures never explicitly say that we are agents unto God, even though that principle does exist within them. The only time that men are called agents in the scriptures is when they are called, "agents unto themselves." That's a different thing and a very unique phrase. If we start to confuse the general idea of agents and agency with the specific way the scriptures explicitly use the words, we're going to cause confusion.

Just a point of clarification. At least in one location the scriptures do indicate that we are agents unto God, "Wherefore, as ye are agents, ye are on the Lord's errand; and whatever ye do according to the will of the Lord is the Lord's business." (D&C 64:29) Harold B Lee commented on this scripture saying, "When one becomes a holder of the priesthood, he becomes an agent of the Lord. He should think of his calling as though he were on the Lord’s errand." (Stand Ye in Holy Places, 255) Now this specific reference has to do more with priesthood duties so I don't necessarily mean to fall on one side or the other of this issue.

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At least in one location the scriptures do indicate that we are agents unto God . . . D&C 64:29.

Thank you for bringing this up. I am aware of this verse and even the quote to which you refer. The following is my understanding of this verse, and is not offered as a criticism.

D&C 64:29 is often used to suggest that men are agents of the Lord and should therefore seek to do His will, but the original revelation had a more limited context. Verse 26 shows that the agents referred to are actually Newel K. Whitney and Sidney Gilbert, and verse 30 goes on to mention the assignment these two men were given. Verse 29 is specifically directed to these two men who were actually appointed and ordained as agents unto the church and given specific duties to perform (See D&C 57:1,3-6 and D&C 63:42-46 respectively). This scripture demonstrates that the Lord both understood and used the concept of agents exactly as defined by the dictionary.

This verse is almost always taken out of context. In fact, I can't recall ever hearing anyone mention that this revelation is directed to actual men who were called to serve specifically as agents for the Church. It's almost always used as an example that priesthood holders or Church members in general are agents of the Lord.

I do agree that when priesthood holders or members of the Church act according to God's will, they are like agents and they are doing His business. It's just that sometimes in the Church we're good at picking out general principles from the scriptures, but we often lack an understanding of what the scriptures actually say.

I guess I'd rather understand the original meaning of a revelation and then draw an appropriate analogy from it, instead of pulling a verse out of context just to get the general idea. I think when we do that, we become too casual with the scriptures.

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I have for over 20 years, so be careful what you say.

Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to understand what you know. In all that you've said, are you referring to the concept of agents and agency in a general sense and then applying those principles to the gospel, or are you referring to the specific way in which our scriptures use those words and not going beyond what is actually said?

Important to understanding scriptures is the understanding of symbols. But I would submit that the highest “level” of learning for mortal man on earth is found in the teachings within the temple – which are, by divine intent, symbolic. Please do not think that I am discounting scripture study (because scripture study is necessary and must precede temple instruction) but it is my understanding that within the temple, we are as each individual, learning like unto the ancient prophets before a “burning bush”. Nephi and other prophets were taken by the spirit to “a mountain” for instructions. The symbolic reference of mountain and temple are in essence the same.

There are, from scripture three ideas we are taught concerning our quest or journey within what is taught in our scriptures and temples with reference to the “Plan of Salvation”. Among these ideas are the notions of “Will” or sometimes thought of in our current generation as “Free Will”, as well as the notions of “Choice” and “Agency”. It is interesting that all scripture references to Agency come to us directly through modern revelation and the English language. It is in essence an opportunity for us to learn this concept in our own native tongue.

In ancient societies individuals were very familiar with the governing of Kings over the kingdoms for which they resided. The term “servant” or to serve (service) meant something quite different then and with some studding you may find strong parallel meaning with the ancient term servant and our modern use of agent or agency. In ancient culture servants and children had similar symbolic meaning. For example – those that served or were servants of a particular authority were called the children of that authority. The term children of the king or sons and daughters of the king carried this symbolism. Likewise the Biblical term “Sons of Zadok” or the “Sons of Aaron” or “children of Israel”.

I would also point the ancient covenants which were the binding force of a kingdom. Under the ancient covenant of secular kingdoms we find similarities in the “Kingdom of G-d”. Examples abound in the covenant of Abraham. Symbolic to this covenant G-d promised Abraham 3 things. Those 3 things are symbolic in our temple covenants as well. A study of ancient kingdoms – one learns that under the covenant the “Suzerain” of the kingdom becomes responsible for his “children” and “Servants” and must make intersession with G-d in their behalf. The legal concept of authority interceding or making payment (salvation) for those given authority under them is not a new concept.

Without such understanding the words in the scriptures, Isaiah for example, become almost meaningless. Or perhaps I should say – with such understanding the words of Isaiah become much more enlightening. – And we have hardly scratched the symbolic surface of agency.

The Traveler

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Just a point of clarification. At least in one location the scriptures do indicate that we are agents unto God, "Wherefore, as ye are agents, ye are on the Lord's errand; and whatever ye do according to the will of the Lord is the Lord's business." (D&C 64:29) Harold B Lee commented on this scripture saying, "When one becomes a holder of the priesthood, he becomes an agent of the Lord. He should think of his calling as though he were on the Lord’s errand." (Stand Ye in Holy Places, 255) Now this specific reference has to do more with priesthood duties so I don't necessarily mean to fall on one side or the other of this issue.

In regards to this statement it would be likewise with other callings such as young womens leaders, and relief society teachers, pretty much as members we are called upon to fulfill our covenants. The commandments is not regarding our individual spiritual welfare but to inform others and being an examples of such gospels. Primary songs taught me a lot, I became aware of who I was singing about, praises that show reverence and teachings of our Heavenly Father and Savior. For example:

How could the Father tell the world of love and tenderness?

He sent his Son, a newborn babe, with peace and holiness.

How could the Father show the world the pathway we should go?

He sent his Son to walk with men on earth, that we may know.

How could the Father tell the world of sacrifice, of death?

He sent his Son to die for us and rise with living breath.

What does the Father ask of us? What do the scriptures say?

Have faith, have hope, live like his Son, help others on their way.

What does he ask? Live like his Son.

Now it's as members our choice and free will on the fact of whether we want to live like Jesus Christ and exemplify. What better way than to chasten to the teachings that's coherent to righteousness and pure knowledge.

Moroni 7:48

Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

3 Nephi 27:21

Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

John 3:16

¶For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 13:15

For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

TG Example; God, the Standard of Righteousness; Jesus Christ, Exemplar; Leadership.

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In all that you've said, are you referring to the concept of agents and agency in a general sense and then applying those principles to the gospel, or are you referring to the specific way in which our scriptures use those words and not going beyond what is actually said?

Important to understanding scriptures is the understanding of symbols. . . .

* * *

. . . – And we have hardly scratched the symbolic surface of agency

As best as I can gather from your response, you are referring to the concept of agents and agency in a general sense and then applying those principles to the gospel. It seems like you are drawing analogies based on the general (or even symbolic) concept of agency, rather than attempting to look at specifics and context. Very well. Like I've said, I understand the general principle of agency as it applies to the gospel as well. I just didn't want the actual and the symbolic to be mingled. Now that I understand where you're coming from, go ahead and continue.

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As best as I can gather from your response, you are referring to the concept of agents and agency in a general sense and then applying those principles to the gospel. It seems like you are drawing analogies based on the general (or even symbolic) concept of agency, rather than attempting to look at specifics and context. Very well. Like I've said, I understand the general principle of agency as it applies to the gospel as well. I just didn't want the actual and the symbolic to be mingled. Now that I understand where you're coming from, go ahead and continue.

Let us look at a specific context where agency is used that you feel does not apply at all to what I purport about agency.

The Traveler

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I have no doubt you can make your view fit, because I can do that as well, and so can everyone else on LDS.net, nevertheless, it will be entertaining and interesting, so here you go.

This one has the word 'agency' as per your request:

D&C 93

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

Here is one that uses the word 'agent' as well:

D&C 58

28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.

Since you and I are biased, we'll have to let each reader of this forum decide for themselves whether your meaning is correct and fits the actual context of the revelation, or it you're doing a little 'wresting' of the scriptures.

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I have no doubt you can make your view fit, because I can do that as well, and so can everyone else on LDS.net, nevertheless, it will be entertaining and interesting, so here you go.

This one has the word 'agency' as per your request:

D&C 93

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

Here is one that uses the word 'agent' as well:

D&C 58

28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.

Since you and I are biased, we'll have to let each reader of this forum decide for themselves whether your meaning is correct and fits the actual context of the revelation, or it you're doing a little 'wresting' of the scriptures.

I do not believe this is difficult at all - the answer to the question is where does the power and agency spoken of come from? G-d has liability for the choices he makes and the authority or gifts he gives or creates - man has liability for the choices he makes and the authority they either create or take unto themselves.

Under the atonement all of the liability of G-d is paid for in full. So I ask - what then is the liability of man that is not covered by and already paid for by the atonement?

The Traveler

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I do not believe this is difficult at all - the answer to the question is where does the power and agency spoken of come from? G-d has liability for the choices he makes and the authority or gifts he gives or creates - man has liability for the choices he makes and the authority they either create or take unto themselves.

Under the atonement all of the liability of G-d is paid for in full. So I ask - what then is the liability of man that is not covered by and already paid for by the atonement?

The Traveler

I think Boyd K. Packer's parable given in "Gospel Principles" Chapter 12 says it well; "“As the creditor was pondering the offer, the mediator added, ‘You demanded justice. Though he cannot pay you, I will do so. You will have been justly dealt with and can ask no more. It would not be just.’

“And so the creditor agreed.

The mediator turned then to the debtor. ‘If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?’

“‘Oh yes, yes,’ cried the debtor. ‘You save me from prison and show mercy to me.’

“‘Then,’ said the benefactor, ‘you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.’

“And so it was that the creditor was paid in full. He had been justly dealt with. No contract had been broken.

“The debtor, in turn, had been extended mercy. Both laws stood fulfilled. Because there was a mediator, justice had claimed its full share, and mercy was fully satisfied” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1977, 79–80; or Ensign, May 1977, 54–55).

Our sins are our spiritual debts. Without Jesus Christ, who is our Savior and Mediator, we would all pay for our sins by suffering spiritual death. But because of Him, if we will keep His terms, which are to repent and keep His commandments, we may return to live with our Heavenly Father.

It is wonderful that Christ has provided us a way to be healed from our sins. He said:

“Behold, I have come unto the world … to save the world from sin.

“Therefore, whoso repenteth and cometh unto me as a little child, him will I receive, for of such is the kingdom of God. Behold, for such I have laid down my life, and have taken it up again; therefore repent, and come unto me ye ends of the earth, and be saved” (3 Nephi 9:21–22)."

I think it says it pretty clearly here that justice had met its full share to God but our debt and our debtor- creditor relationship with our Mediator still remains. As the parable says, "you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms." This, again, as I have stated in previous posts comes in the form of covenants we take on, that set the new terms and also explain our liability as well as our associated blessings. In this way we become children of Christ, our new creditor.

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I think Boyd K. Packer's parable given in "Gospel Principles" Chapter 12 says it well; "“As the creditor was pondering the offer, the mediator added, ‘You demanded justice. Though he cannot pay you, I will do so. You will have been justly dealt with and can ask no more. It would not be just.’

“And so the creditor agreed.

The mediator turned then to the debtor. ‘If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?’

“‘Oh yes, yes,’ cried the debtor. ‘You save me from prison and show mercy to me.’

“‘Then,’ said the benefactor, ‘you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.’

“And so it was that the creditor was paid in full. He had been justly dealt with. No contract had been broken.

“The debtor, in turn, had been extended mercy. Both laws stood fulfilled. Because there was a mediator, justice had claimed its full share, and mercy was fully satisfied” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1977, 79–80; or Ensign, May 1977, 54–55).

Our sins are our spiritual debts. Without Jesus Christ, who is our Savior and Mediator, we would all pay for our sins by suffering spiritual death. But because of Him, if we will keep His terms, which are to repent and keep His commandments, we may return to live with our Heavenly Father.

It is wonderful that Christ has provided us a way to be healed from our sins. He said:

“Behold, I have come unto the world … to save the world from sin.

“Therefore, whoso repenteth and cometh unto me as a little child, him will I receive, for of such is the kingdom of God. Behold, for such I have laid down my life, and have taken it up again; therefore repent, and come unto me ye ends of the earth, and be saved” (3 Nephi 9:21–22)."

I think it says it pretty clearly here that justice had met its full share to God but our debt and our debtor- creditor relationship with our Mediator still remains. As the parable says, "you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms." This, again, as I have stated in previous posts comes in the form of covenants we take on, that set the new terms and also explain our liability as well as our associated blessings. In this way we become children of Christ, our new creditor.

I would submit that the basis of the "debt" including all the terms were settled long before we came to earth for a mortal experience. Because the debt is taken care of - there is opportunity to lay up in store treasures in heaven. What we should be considering is that such treasures are not really individual aggrandizement (or glory).

Perhaps - or as it seems to me - the biggest problem that most seem to be having concerning agency - is that they think, that everything is all about them and what they get or do not get for themselves. I believe the focus of agency is not about the individual but the individual becoming part of a higher cause - not for the sake of the individual but for that cause. Obviously I am not worthy to communicate this message.

The Traveler

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I would submit that the basis of the "debt" including all the terms were settled long before we came to earth for a mortal experience. Because the debt is taken care of - there is opportunity to lay up in store treasures in heaven. What we should be considering is that such treasures are not really individual aggrandizement (or glory).

Perhaps - or as it seems to me - the biggest problem that most seem to be having concerning agency - is that they think, that everything is all about them and what they get or do not get for themselves. I believe the focus of agency is not about the individual but the individual becoming part of a higher cause - not for the sake of the individual but for that cause. Obviously I am not worthy to communicate this message.

The Traveler

I am not sure why you are having a hard time separating being responsible from being responsible for a higher cause. Or even being accountable and being accountable for a higher cause. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. Why can I not say that I am personally responsible for a higher cause? I am accountable for the portion of my stewardship that relates to my eye being single to the glory of God. Why is that not possible?

I worked in the medical field for many years as a nurse. As would be in many fields there are supervisors and directors over departments etc. As I would work I would have my individual responsibilities and have to answer to a supervisor and to a doctor. If something went wrong, the doctor or the hospital would carry the liability but I would still have to answer to the doctor and be held accountable for anything I did. If I wasn't responsible and accountable I wouldn't get paid. There would be no value to my work.

One thing to keep in mind is that whenever we are successful, our Celestial 'supervisor' feels the success, the joy in the success. In other words, whenever we are successful, He is successful. The lack of individual focus is brought about by one's ability to love his neighbor as his self.

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I am not sure why you are having a hard time separating being responsible from being responsible for a higher cause. Or even being accountable and being accountable for a higher cause. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. Why can I not say that I am personally responsible for a higher cause? I am accountable for the portion of my stewardship that relates to my eye being single to the glory of God. Why is that not possible?

I worked in the medical field for many years as a nurse. As would be in many fields there are supervisors and directors over departments etc. As I would work I would have my individual responsibilities and have to answer to a supervisor and to a doctor. If something went wrong, the doctor or the hospital would carry the liability but I would still have to answer to the doctor and be held accountable for anything I did. If I wasn't responsible and accountable I wouldn't get paid. There would be no value to my work.

One thing to keep in mind is that whenever we are successful, our Celestial 'supervisor' feels the success, the joy in the success. In other words, whenever we are successful, He is successful. The lack of individual focus is brought about by one's ability to love his neighbor as his self.

The difference is being libel and being responsible for blessings - Which is interesting because without the atonement - as responsible as you think you are you could not even be a partaker in blessings. Not only does the sacrifice of the Christ take liability for all our sins but in addition allows us to have some semblance of responsibility in order to be partakers in blessings.

This is very important on may fronts - for example: you have no right to not forgive others - just because Christ has taken that liability on himself. Therefore your only issues of holding others liable rest only in Christ. You, regardless or how badly you have been wronged, have no right to make claim that your offenders are liable - nor does anyone you have offended have right to hold you accountable.

It does appear to me - and I do believe, that thinking that we and others are accountable and liable for sins is in essence the definition of hell, spirit prison or whatever you want to call that state of being unable to accept the mercy of G-d. I believe that great and exciting good news is that no one is going to get what they really deserve because of Christ.

If we were to any degree accountable and responsible - no one would even be resurrected - not even to the telestial Kingdom of glory.

the Traveler

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The difference is being libel and being responsible for blessings - Which is interesting because without the atonement - as responsible as you think you are you could not even be a partaker in blessings. Not only does the sacrifice of the Christ take liability for all our sins but in addition allows us to have some semblance of responsibility in order to be partakers in blessings.

This is very important on may fronts - for example: you have no right to not forgive others - just because Christ has taken that liability on himself. Therefore your only issues of holding others liable rest only in Christ. You, regardless or how badly you have been wronged, have no right to make claim that your offenders are liable - nor does anyone you have offended have right to hold you accountable.

It does appear to me - and I do believe, that thinking that we and others are accountable and liable for sins is in essence the definition of hell, spirit prison or whatever you want to call that state of being unable to accept the mercy of G-d. I believe that great and exciting good news is that no one is going to get what they really deserve because of Christ.

If we were to any degree accountable and responsible - no one would even be resurrected - not even to the telestial Kingdom of glory.

the Traveler

I have never disagreed with the debt paid to God by Christ and all of its consequences. We are talking past each other because I am talking about our relationship with Christ, our "new creditor" as Boyd K. Packer puts it as found in "Gospel Principles" previously given. What allows us to have agency now is that it is given via our new creditor and the new terms given by Christ. The gospel and its associated contracts are the new terms.

What do you think this means? Boyd K. Packer; "“The mediator turned then to the debtor. ‘If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?’

“‘Oh yes, yes,’ cried the debtor. ‘You save me from prison and show mercy to me.’

“‘Then,’ said the benefactor, ‘you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.’"

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I have never disagreed with the debt paid to God by Christ and all of its consequences. We are talking past each other because I am talking about our relationship with Christ, our "new creditor" as Boyd K. Packer puts it as found in "Gospel Principles" previously given. What allows us to have agency now is that it is given via our new creditor and the new terms given by Christ. The gospel and its associated contracts are the new terms.

What do you think this means? Boyd K. Packer; "“The mediator turned then to the debtor. ‘If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?’

“‘Oh yes, yes,’ cried the debtor. ‘You save me from prison and show mercy to me.’

“‘Then,’ said the benefactor, ‘you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.’"

I believe that the role of Jesus as the Christ was determined and we accepted all the terms long before we were born - in fact that is why we were born. However, in this life we live without that knowledge and must accept it and understand it based in faith. We are now living out part of those terms which are taught to us in faith as "The Plan of Salvation" - of which we now only know in part.

The Traveler

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The difference is being libel and being responsible for blessings - Which is interesting because without the atonement - as responsible as you think you are you could not even be a partaker in blessings. Not only does the sacrifice of the Christ take liability for all our sins but in addition allows us to have some semblance of responsibility in order to be partakers in blessings.

This is very important on may fronts - for example: you have no right to not forgive others - just because Christ has taken that liability on himself. Therefore your only issues of holding others liable rest only in Christ. You, regardless or how badly you have been wronged, have no right to make claim that your offenders are liable - nor does anyone you have offended have right to hold you accountable.

It does appear to me - and I do believe, that thinking that we and others are accountable and liable for sins is in essence the definition of hell, spirit prison or whatever you want to call that state of being unable to accept the mercy of G-d. I believe that great and exciting good news is that no one is going to get what they really deserve because of Christ.

If we were to any degree accountable and responsible - no one would even be resurrected - not even to the telestial Kingdom of glory.

the Traveler

Traveler, you state that "I believe that great and exciting good news is that no one is going to get what they really deserve because of Christ."

The atonement of Christ is not for men to compare each others sin. It's an example to "bear on another's burdens", when I read your statement I feel your expression is still misunderstood.

We are given the opportunity as Saints to utilize our saviors examples and sacrifice, however, we will be condemned if we do not fully comprehend the spiritual process of repentence, charity, and accountability. When you state "I believe that great and exciting good news is that no one is going to get what they really deserve because of Christ." I find it disturbing.

One is accountable for their sins to the extent that he/she chooses to repent through Christ for the remission of their sin, and change thy ways into righteousness. Therefore they are born again Holy through Christ, and God is Holy to dwell with him ye must be Holy.

One is accountable for their sins to the extent that he/she heard the gospel of Christ, chooses not to repent and shall perish with no eternal life.

As Jesus Christ Saints it is our duty to bring the world "Truth", truth is Heavenly Father and that we must be baptized either for immersion of the Holy Ghost through Christ or remission of sins through Christ allowing those who sinned and have the knowledge of Christ to become Holy again which supports accountability. That is why missionary work is essential to teach the world of christ and heavenly fathers commandments, and it is up to the individuals on whether they want to utilize the atonement or perish.

Christ is the only iron rod to receive or to distribute the Holy Ghost.

“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” (John 3:16–17.)

To settle an apparent controversy among his disciples as to who would be the greatest in the kingdom of God, he said: “… except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of [God].” (Matt. 18:3.)

This gospel and the teachings is a learning process, some will want to learn more, some will not.

Don't focus on the slack concerning the promise, but focus on the spiritual moral commandments in attaining the promise.

The scriptures holds many answers:

James 1:5

If any of you lack wisdom, let hi ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

James 1:6

But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

James 1:25

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Delivered in General Conference by Harold B. Lee April 4, 1971

Posted Image

(I copied this part just to give a lovely testament from Harold B. Lee, I'll include the weblink at the bottom of this post.)

If there is any one thing most needed in this time of tumult and frustration, when men and women and youth and young adults are desperately seeking for answers to the problems which afflict mankind, it is an “iron rod” as a safe guide along the straight path on the way to eternal life, amidst the strange and devious roadways that would eventually lead to destruction and to the ruin of all that is “virtuous, lovely, or of good report.”

These conditions as they would be found in the earth when these scriptures, now called the Book of Mormon, were to be brought forth were foreseen by the prophets. As I read some of these predictions, I would have you think of conditions with which we are surrounded today:

“And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts; unto … envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities … because of the pride of your hearts.

“… behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.” (Morm. 8:36–37.)

The apostle Paul also spoke of a time of peril when “men [would] be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

“Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those things that are good,

“Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

“Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof. …” (2 Tim. 3:2–5.)

There are many who profess to be religious and speak of themselves as Christians, and, according to one such, “as accepting the scriptures only as sources of inspiration and moral truth,” and then ask in their smugness: “Do the revelations of God give us a handrail to the kingdom of God, as the Lord’s messenger told Lehi, or merely a compass?”

Unfortunately, some are among us who claim to be Church members but are somewhat like the scoffers in Lehi’s vision—standing aloof and seemingly inclined to hold in derision the faithful who choose to accept Church authorities as God’s special witnesses of the gospel and his agents in directing the affairs of the Church.

There are those in the Church who speak of themselves as liberals who, as one of our former presidents has said, “read by the lamp of their own conceit.” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine [Deseret Book Co., 1939], p. 373.) One time I asked one of our Church educational leaders how he would define a liberal in the Church. He answered in one sentence: “A liberal in the Church is merely one who does not have a testimony.”

If you would like to read more here is the link:

The Iron Rod - Ensign June 1971 - ensign

In order to accept the mercy of God we must be accountable, and responsible in works and deeds.

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I believe that the role of Jesus as the Christ was determined and we accepted all the terms long before we were born - in fact that is why we were born. However, in this life we live without that knowledge and must accept it and understand it based in faith. We are now living out part of those terms which are taught to us in faith as "The Plan of Salvation" - of which we now only know in part.

The Traveler

We do not live without that knowledge, that's like saying the scriptures is not moral principles and faith is not built upon testimonies of the spirit when reading the scriptures, facing trials and error. We go through afflictions and not even flesh can we find comfort in, but only our heavenly father through church. Heavenly father does not seek reasoning from us, he wants us as his childrens to be accountable and morally responsible. Even parents would want that from their children, unless they have no values and moral foundations then it wouldn't matter.

Yes, we were in heaven with him before and we heard the role of Jesus Christ and accepted it. Now that we are in this life it is our responsibility to learn and abide by such knowledge through example, good works, and good deeds. Helping others to know of such gospel so that they may flourish spiritually in heavenly fathers light. It's our own free will on whether we will hearken to the gospel and follow it accordingly. Or like some conforming it into their own personal understandings and as a member this is not right.

2 Peter 3:15-16

15.And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16.As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures ,unto their own destruction.

Heavenly father is all knowing that he freely gave us the "gift of the holy ghost" so that we can through the testimonies of our spirit return with him. Those who are not baptized but have knowledge of the gospel are given a chance to be born again holy through christ by being informed by members of this church and repenting . And those who died without knowledge or do not have the knowledge will be given such through genealogy of family who are members "Baptism for the dead" or missionary work.

Free Will, Agency and Choice is given upon the unlearned of the gospel, after exposure of such knowledge is the decision based upon becoming Saints. Saints believe in Christ and committing themselves to a covenant with Heavenly Father. The Church of Jesus Christ of These Latter-day Saint's focuses on strengthening that commitments by exercising sound doctrines, moral principles, baptisms, laying on of hands for the sick, good service for the poor, good works and good deeds, following line upon line examples of Jesus Christ.

Articles of Faith

History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535–41

1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

This gospel was not built for just one individual to learn and understand but for all of us. It's marvelous to know so many who have came across personal trials and were seeking some comfort, but comfort is not in the flesh comfort is only in our heavenly father. And through the Holy Ghost, will we truly reap Heavenly Fathers blessings and abide in righteousness.

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I believe that the role of Jesus as the Christ was determined and we accepted all the terms long before we were born - in fact that is why we were born. However, in this life we live without that knowledge and must accept it and understand it based in faith. We are now living out part of those terms which are taught to us in faith as "The Plan of Salvation" - of which we now only know in part.

The Traveler

We "must" accept it or else what? ..... sounds like accountability to me.

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We "must" accept it or else what? ..... sounds like accountability to me.

Sorry you caught my error - it should read

in this life we live without that knowledge and can only act and understand the plan based in faith.

The Traveler

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We do not live without that knowledge, that's like saying the scriptures is not moral principles and faith is not built upon testimonies of the spirit when reading the scriptures, facing trials and error.

Scriptures are clearly inspired and an aid - but scriptures are not necessary and sufficient for salvation. They may point us to Christ but Christ alone fulfills the requirements. Knowledge or belief of scripture is not necessary. In fact in this life - possession knowledge is an illusion we live by faith. We scientist think we know a lot but again it is an illusion - we really do not know what electrons are, what gravity is and if that is not enough we have made up stuff called "Dark Energy" because we really do not know why what is going on out there is happening.

We go through afflictions and not even flesh can we find comfort in, but only our heavenly father through church. Heavenly father does not seek reasoning from us, he wants us as his childrens to be accountable and morally responsible. Even parents would want that from their children, unless they have no values and moral foundations then it wouldn't matter.

Yes, we were in heaven with him before and we heard the role of Jesus Christ and accepted it. Now that we are in this life it is our responsibility to learn and abide by such knowledge through example, good works, and good deeds. Helping others to know of such gospel so that they may flourish spiritually in heavenly fathers light. It's our own free will on whether we will hearken to the gospel and follow it accordingly.

how can anyone express free will - when they do not "know" what is going on? I stated earlier that the scriptures clearly tell us Eve was beguiled by Satan. The whole purpose of a bate and switch (as Satan beguiled Eve) is to prevent the actual expression of will. To trick you from exercising actual will.

...

This gospel was not built for just one individual to learn and understand but for all of us.

the operative word is "all" - The gospel is for everyone - even those that do not understand it in this life.

It's marvelous to know so many who have came across personal trials and were seeking some comfort, but comfort is not in the flesh comfort is only in our heavenly father. And through the Holy Ghost, will we truly reap Heavenly Fathers blessings and abide in righteousness.

thanks for your input but do you not think it is rather interesting that we never see in scripture the advice to actually take responsibility for our own sins but rather to repent of them?

The Traveler

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