Limiting God


Recommended Posts

"I cannot believe in a God who would torture souls in hell for all eternity."

"I don't believe in the God of the Old Testament. He's angry, and orders killing."

"If the _____ (evangelicals, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, whatever religion one disagrees with...) are right about _____ (hell, predestination, etc.) then I won't believe in God..."

I'm not targeting anyone in particular. Instead, I'm concerned about something I see happening more and more. Instead of the typical young person searching for truth, it seems that many people are on a search for a God or religion that suites their personality, or their personal beliefs. Perhaps it's an outgrowth of post-modernism. After all, if there is no absolute truth, but religion can comfort, all I need to do is find one that fits my predispositions.

THOUGHTS?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 160
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Even within my circle of LDS friends I'm seeing some "cafeteria Mormonism"... where they pick and choose the parts they like and decide to reject what they don't. It brings to mind Jesus saying he'll spit the lukewarm out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To some degree, PC, one might say this has been happening ever since the Reformation when people could choose which brand of Christianity they wanted to follow. And I think the need to project current social mores and prejudices onto an eternal God, is pretty much as old as the belief in God itself.

Nor, I think, can anyone sincerely claim that they've completely avoided that trap. It's a process that's easier to identify in others than in ourselves.

Nevertheless, it's a pretty depressing to see it in action.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, what happens when we become convinced that our scriptures or our prophets or our Church does teach that which we find reprehensible? Do we find another religion? Another god? Do we just keep practicing our religion, but personally disagree with that which we do not like? Perhaps we put it on the back burner as something to be worked out later?

My own thought is that truth is truth, and I must face the spiritual crisis. If, for example, my Bible teaches what I do not like, and I am convinced that my Bible does indeed teach it, I must either tackle the unsavory doctrine or I must reexamine my faith in the Bible as truth source.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As minds become free, they will act free.

I guess I am a prime example... The first one is exactly what I say. If God is love he would not torture people in hell for all eternity. No offence...

So what do you do with that? The LDS doctrine of "outer darkness" is smaller than that which most traditional Christians understand, but it's still there and it's still eternal. So, how do you reconcile this?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So what do you do with that? The LDS doctrine of "outer darkness" is smaller than that which most traditional Christians understand, but it's still there and it's still eternal. So, how do you reconcile this?

The outer darkness only consists of apostates who know undeniably the truth of the gospel. Which would mean only those who have seen God or Jesus Christ in person. Not talking about those who have seen them spiritually. Which means that it would, essentially, be followers of the devil. Even people like Oliver Cowdrey or other Saints who fell out did not have a perfect light. They did not get the doctrines Joseph Smith Jr. came out with "verified" by Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ. The majority of spirits in outer darkness would be the 1/3rd that chose to follow the Devil instead of enter mortality. In that case, I have no sympathy, they are followers of the Devil who had a perfect light.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My own thought is that truth is truth, and I must face the spiritual crisis. If, for example, my Bible teaches what I do not like, and I am convinced that my Bible does indeed teach it, I must either tackle the unsavory doctrine or I must reexamine my faith in the Bible as truth source.

I agree with that, I did not just choose this church because I like everything about it. Some of the stuff is not favorable to me: how the old testament God appears to act, priesthood denied to blacks and a mall being built to name a few.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

God is still bound by the free will of his children. He cannot save those who choose not to be saved. And really it is a choice. The eternity that we choose will be the one where we are most comfortable. God does not torture us by limiting the light we receive. He simply will not put people in a place where they cannot withstand the light. For some, a very few, there is no light they can tolerate and they are eternally in outer darkness. I don't know that other Christians think that way, but that is what I was taught in the LDS Church.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"I cannot believe in a God who would torture souls in hell for all eternity."

"I don't believe in the God of the Old Testament. He's angry, and orders killing."

"If the _____ (evangelicals, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, whatever religion one disagrees with...) are right about _____ (hell, predestination, etc.) then I won't believe in God..."

I'm not targeting anyone in particular. Instead, I'm concerned about something I see happening more and more. Instead of the typical young person searching for truth, it seems that many people are on a search for a God or religion that suites their personality, or their personal beliefs. Perhaps it's an outgrowth of post-modernism. After all, if there is no absolute truth, but religion can comfort, all I need to do is find one that fits my predispositions.

THOUGHTS?

Just so you know. The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-Day Saints, do not believe in predestination. Brother Ray

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with that, I did not just choose this church because I like everything about it. Some of the stuff is not favorable to me: how the old testament God appears to act, priesthood denied to blacks and a mall being built to name a few.

You do know that the Priesthood is no longer denied to Blacks. Don't you? Brother Ray

Link to comment
Share on other sites

God is still bound by the free will of his children. He cannot save those who choose not to be saved. And really it is a choice. The eternity that we choose will be the one where we are most comfortable. God does not torture us by limiting the light we receive. He simply will not put people in a place where they cannot withstand the light. For some, a very few, there is no light they can tolerate and they are eternally in outer darkness. I don't know that other Christians think that way, but that is what I was taught in the LDS Church.

I can't agree however with the no light they can tolerate and they are eternally in outer darkness. I was taught as a member that we must hold tight to the iron rod that leads to the fruit of life tree. Some don't cling that they wander off into the darkness because they were either tempted by the people in the tower of destruction and they got lost trying to find someone who was lost. All types of ways of looking at it, but it makes sense how can you spiritually help someone if your not spiritually fit yourself. It would allow the adversary to devour 2 spirits that is desired by heavenly father after all he wanted us but like that quote "If you love somebody, let them go, for if they return, they were always yours. And if they don't, they never were." So, pretty much who do you feel like going back to? I never really thought lucifer is pleasant since he has a pulsive controlling habit. Heavenly fathers wrath is far more fierce, I don't want to test that either. I do know though that as much as he is fierce he also loves. Lucifer I know just wants to controll and make everyone his dominions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are many ways that one person attempts to communicate that they disagree with another person. Strange as it may seem - sometimes when we express ourselves or try to communicate what we really believe we do so by contrasts. When expressing beliefs by contrasts it is very easy for one person to misunderstand what the other person is actually saying.

Let me try to give an example from this forum. This thread was started by PC trying to draw a logical criticism because he believes some criticisms of what he believe of G-d would limit G-d and in reality, if true, would deprive G-d of the definition of being infinite. The strange thing is that between PC and my self - I believe that PC has also created a limited G-d in order to sustain or support his beliefs in G-d. Let me illustrate:

In the decision between the Evangelical and LDS concepts of G-d there is a difference in that LDS doctrine and belief teaches that sanctified and exalted saints of G-d will become like G-d so indistinguishable or "one" with G-d that they are in reality G-ds. In other words that G-d has power, knowledge and ability to replicate his kind or species and this is the intimate purpose of his creation. PC responded in essence that G-d is "limited" in his power of creation and cannot replicate his kind or species because in PC's mind there can only be one G-d - thus limiting G-d in my mind.

What I find so ironic is that now he uses the very argument that I though would obviously defeat his concept to prove that another concept concerning G-d is flawed and therefore cannot be an accurate or a complete, true and actual representation of the loving and all powerful G-d that really must exists.

Hmmmmm - because of my respect for PC - this causes we to take a step back and wonder - how may of my arguments have I failed to apply to elements of my own beliefs?

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course God is limited. He cannot commit blasphemy.

All-powerful is,thus, a relative term. Certainly God posesses the ability to sin. If he did not posess the gift of agency, would he be able to extend it to others such as his children? Logic says no, that no being can share that which it does not posess first. Having said that, were God to actually choose to sin in any way, he would lose the power and glory he posesses as a perfect being, thus he can accurately be said to be 'incapable of sin'.

In another respect, there is no desire in him to sin, as he has omnipotence to reveal to him the consequences of any sinful choice he could make. Such knowlege further prevents God from making a sinful decision.

Thus the real discussion of 'I cannot believe in a God that does (insert objectionable action/position here)' is one that would more accurately be that of our understanding of true perfection, justice, mercy, love, and all other attributes that the Bible lists as those posessed by God. After all, if we truly believe in a God that is perfect in every possible respect, then any objections we would have to what he says/does would then be easily marked down to our limited understanding of the eternal principles involved, and the requisite gaps in knowledge and information associated with it.

Unrelated to the discussion, but it's what popped into my head when I read the thread title.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure about you all, but I find it kind of sad that some would even question heavenly fathers standing as a righteous being. Only the adversary would want people to question as if to chanllenge his laws which is above all laws. If you cannot agree with mankind laws what makes you anymore capable of abiding with heavenly father's? Heavenly father is an all knowing god and to say he is limited is to say your limiting his righteous influence in your life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An lds article I would like to share:

Knowing God

Elder Bernard P. Brockbank

Assistant to the Council of the Twelve

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.

My dear brothers and sisters, we have been fed the bread of life at this conference, the bread that feeds the spirit and brings out the divine nature in the human soul. The bread of life is built around Jesus Christ and his gospel of love and salvation.

A few years ago on our television set we had a set of rabbit ears for an antenna, and the pictures and messages were not clear. They were foggy and there was what they call “snow” on the set. Often we were unable to understand the message.

***** edited **** Please go to the link to read the entire talk. We can't post an entire article as it violates copyright rules.

Knowing God - Ensign July 1972 - ensign

Edited by pam
Violates copyright rules
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hidden

An lds article I would like to share:

Knowing God

Elder Bernard P. Brockbank

Assistant to the Council of the Twelve

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.

My dear brothers and sisters, we have been fed the bread of life at this conference, the bread that feeds the spirit and brings out the divine nature in the human soul. The bread of life is built around Jesus Christ and his gospel of love and salvation.

A few years ago on our television set we had a set of rabbit ears for an antenna, and the pictures and messages were not clear. They were foggy and there was what they call “snow” on the set. Often we were unable to understand the message.

You cannot pick up the celestial message, the bread of life, the word of God, with rabbit ears on your human mind, your human body; the message will not be clear. You need your antenna high, well placed, and turned toward the divine message. You need to keep the mind clear and focused on the heavenly message. It takes time to plan and install in the human heart and mind an antenna to pick up spiritual revelation and inspiration from God. You must be in tune. If you’re out of tune, you’re out of harmony, and static and wrong impressions come from satanic and worldly sources.

Jesus Christ said, “… this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3.)

We can receive eternal life and salvation from knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom he has sent. Many believe that there is a God, many say that they know there is a God, but many do not act like they know God. There is a great difference in believing or knowing that there is a God and in knowing God. When we claim that we know God, it bears great responsibility, and an apostle has given us information to check our knowledge of God.

The apostle John said:

“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

“He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.” (1 Jn. 2:3–6.)

The apostle James said, “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.” (James 2:19.)

Jesus was recognized by a man possessed of the devil, and the devil spoke out and said, “… I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.” (Mark 1:24.) The devils know God but do not respect his doctrine or keep his commandments.

Knowing God is related to keeping his commandments. Knowing God must come by direct revelation from God. You cannot know by the power of flesh and blood. This great lesson is taught by Jesus Christ in this message: The disciples were asked by Jesus Christ, “Whom say ye that I am?

“And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matt. 16:15–18.)

The Lord has indicated that the gates of hell cannot prevail against revelation from him to any one of his children who desires to know the living God and to know the living Jesus Christ. This is available by divine commitment and by divine will, that for anyone desiring to know God the Eternal Father and to know his Son Jesus Christ, God is under commitment and the gates of hell cannot prevail against that commitment; and it will be revealed through the power and principle of revelation direct from God to the one desiring to receive that information.

All through the life of Jesus Christ he showed his knowledge of the living God and his loyalty and allegiance to God. Jesus Christ loved his Heavenly Father. He even went so far as to say, “My Father and I are one. I came down from heaven to do the will of my Father.” (See John 10:30; John 6:38.)

Knowing God does not solve life’s problems, but gives purpose and strength to master them. Jesus, with his knowledge of his Heavenly Father, still had his problems to meet and to work out.

The answers to knowing God the Eternal Father are found in and through Jesus Christ. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6.)

In order to know God the Eternal Father, we must receive that knowledge through the program and through Jesus Christ, who is the mediator between God and man.

Jesus also gave this information, which is often repeated and known well by many; he said, “I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.” (John 8:12.)

The light of life is divine light that permeates and radiates in the human soul and brings out the godlike qualities and attributes of godliness. The light of life is the gospel of Jesus Christ, the gospel of love. The light of life has within it the glorious promises from God of eternal life in his heavenly kingdom. The light of life will bring divine truth and happiness and peace into a troubled heart. The light of life brings divine light into the problems and troubles of this life and helps to turn life’s problems into steppingstones to eternal progression and to developing a godlike character.

Jesus also said: “… light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

“For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

“But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” (John 3:19–21.)

To know God, you must walk in the light of life. To know God as a living child of God, we should know our relationship to him, our divine potential, and we should know that in knowing God there is great responsibility to respect and love and follow his counsel and his doctrines and his commandments and to grow as a child to become more godlike.

Jesus Christ gave this commandment and important counsel by revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said: “… ye are commanded in all things to ask of God, who giveth liberally; and that which the Spirit testifies unto you even so I would that ye should do in all holiness of heart, walking uprightly before me, considering the end of your salvation, doing all things with prayer and thanksgiving, that ye may not be seduced by evil spirits, or doctrines of devils, or the commandments of men; for some are of men, and others of devils.

“Wherefore, beware lest ye are deceived; and that ye may not be deceived seek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given;

“For verily I say unto you, they are given for the benefit of those who love me and keep all my commandments. …” (D&C 46:7–9.)

We must always keep in mind that God’s greatest gift is eternal life. Eternal life comes from knowing God and from knowing Jesus Christ. Jesus said, “If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.” (D&C 6:13.)

The central and basic principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ is love. He laid the basis of human brotherhood in love. It begins in God’s infinite love for his children, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16.)

As is mentioned by the Savior, to know God means to keep his commandments. The Lord also gave this in the first and great commandment relative to the importance of keeping his commandments, when we say that we love God. Here is the great commandment on love: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.” (Matt. 22:37–38.)

Jesus also said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” (John 14:15.)

If we love God, we should keep his commandments. We should love his plan of life. We should love his Only Begotten Son, whom he sent to help us meet life and its problems and to redeem us from death, to make the resurrection and eternal life possible, and to give us the light of life that we may walk in his ways and in the divine light that will lead us to godlike blessings.

Jesus said, “This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.” (John 15:12.)

We must keep in mind that divine programs and divine ways have been given unto us through our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ; and the way to know God and the way to perfect the human body and bring out its godlike qualities so that we can be in harmony and be a child of God, living so that we can know God, are provided in the great principles of faith and repentance.

I would like to mention briefly repentance. Jesus said, “Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matt. 4:17.) The light is turned on in the human soul through the great principle of repentance. Jesus has asked us to repent of past sins, regrets, weaknesses, and failures, and to prepare and look ahead into the future of eternal life and salvation in the kingdom of heaven.

Repentance by all who are accountable is required for preparation and progression, for entrance into the kingdom of heaven. Repentance is God’s purifying program and law for cleansing the human mind and body from weakness, imperfection, and sin. Repentance through Jesus Christ makes it possible for us to progress toward God’s greatest gift, the gift of salvation and eternal life.

Repentance is a refining influence, a principle provided through the atonement and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ to help us purify our mortal minds and bodies and to bring out our divine nature and godlike qualities and character so that we can live in the presence of God in his celestial kingdom.

The home and family is the place where knowledge of God and to know God should be taught, and the place where a loving God should be exemplified and taught to the children.

Parents, children should be taught in the home to know and to love God and to choose his doctrines and his commandments, and not to be misled or deceived by the doctrines of men or the doctrines of devils. They should be taught in the home their relationship to God and how to pray to him. Children should know that they are in the image and likeness of God, that they have godlike attributes and divine potential, that they are literally and truly children of God, with godlike capacities.

They should be taught in the home that Jesus Christ is the proper way, the truth and the great example to follow in this life.

They should be taught that the scriptures contain God’s way of life, his plan of salvation, and each child should have his own set of scriptures, if capable of reading and understanding, so that he can have them by his bedside and have access to them whenever he feels he would like to know more of his Heavenly Father’s plan of life and way of life.

It is not possible to choose God’s way of life and to know God unless we know his program. If we only know the ways of men and the ways of the devil, then we will choose those ways. Jesus Christ commanded that we search the scriptures, that we know the truth, and that the truth would make us free. We find the Lord’s truths in the holy scriptures, and there is no knowledge on the face of this earth greater than knowledge that has been given to us by our Heavenly Father and our Savior, Jesus Christ.

Parents, is there love and respect for God in your home? The poet said: “There is beauty all around/When there’s love at home.” (Hymns, no. 169.)

Parents, do you know God the Eternal Father in your home? Do you pray to a living God? Do you pray to a God that you know, and do you know your relationship to him?

Parents, be careful that you do not permit the devil to come into your home. When the devil enters, he brings disrespect for God, hatred, quarreling, criticism, contention, divorce, and evil. When you know God and have respect for his plan, then there is peace and happiness in your home.

Are there virtue and purity in your family life? Is the Lord’s hallowed Sabbath day kept sacred in your home and among your family?

Now, just a word about what is happening in the world and going on among our children. They are being deceived, and that which is entirely wrong looks to be right because so many fine people indulge in use of these two destroyers [alcohol and tobacco] of the divine nature within man and their respect for God.

Parents, do you drink alcohol? The Lord has warned that alcohol is not good for man. (D&C 89:5.) Alcohol is a drug that can destroy godlike character. Alcohol is not good for children and not good for adults.

Parents, are you showing and teaching by example in your home how to use tobacco? Tobacco is a drug. Doctors say cigarettes are the nation’s greatest single health peril. A doctor speaking in Salt Lake City recently said that cigarettes kill five times more people than do traffic accidents. Jesus Christ said that “tobacco … is not good for man.” (D&C 89:8.) Tobacco is not good for children and is not good for adults.

A person who knows God would want to be like God, because God is perfect. God has all knowledge. God has power to create mankind from the dust of the earth. Anyone knowing God would have great respect for God. Anyone knowing the living God and indulging in the number one killer and destroyer of health of mankind shows a lack of love and knowledge and respect for God.

Parents, is your example the example you want your children to follow? Do you teach self-control in your home? Do you teach divine principles so that the godlike qualities of your children can be manifest in their lives?

The home is the place to teach love for God and knowledge of God, and for people to know God and to pray to a God that they know.

President Harold B. Lee has said, “The most important work you will do for the Church will be within the walls of your own home.” I repeat, “The most important work you will do for the Church will be within the walls of your own home.”

May we recall again these words of the Prophet David O. McKay: “No other success can compensate for failure in the home.” And may I add: No other success can compensate for failure to know the living God and the living Jesus Christ in your home and with your family.

Parents, your children are from God. There is no other answer from God. They have divine potential, and it is your responsibility to help them to know and love God, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, their Savior.

I say this in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Knowing God - Ensign July 1972 - ensign

Link to comment

I am an LDS convert.

So yeah, when I was Catholic, I did not limit God. But, I do acknowledge that my understanding is limited. I didn't do the... "I can't be in this religion who believes that God is ..... ". Nah, I didn't do that. But, I'm LDS now, not because I can't be Catholic who believes that God is .... no. I am LDS now because in my search for truth, I found all the things that I knew were true as a Catholic is improved upon by LDS teaching and those that I did not quite have a good grasp on now makes more sense.

So, think about that... right now, I do not KNOW everything. That is, there are still some stuff in the gospel that I'm still hazy on. So, what happens when I stumble upon another religious teaching that has all the stuff I knew to be true as an LDS and have MORE truth to it? Yes, I will probably go to that Church. I continue to search for truth and follow where the Holy Spirit directs me.

So, you might think... you're like the reed, blowing this way and that according to the strength of the wind. Not so. I only acknowledge that the Holy Spirit directs my search for truth, not a specific Church membership. So that, because I have faith that this Church is the true Church according to the manifestations of the Holy Spirit, then this is where I will be until the end.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am an LDS convert.

So yeah, when I was Catholic, I did not limit God. But, I do acknowledge that my understanding is limited. I didn't do the... "I can't be in this religion who believes that God is ..... ". Nah, I didn't do that. But, I'm LDS now, not because I can't be Catholic who believes that God is .... no. I am LDS now because in my search for truth, I found all the things that I knew were true as a Catholic is improved upon by LDS teaching and those that I did not quite have a good grasp on now makes more sense.

So, think about that... right now, I do not KNOW everything. That is, there are still some stuff in the gospel that I'm still hazy on. So, what happens when I stumble upon another religious teaching that has all the stuff I knew to be true as an LDS and have MORE truth to it? Yes, I will probably go to that Church. I continue to search for truth and follow where the Holy Spirit directs me.

So, you might think... you're like the reed, blowing this way and that according to the strength of the wind. Not so. I only acknowledge that the Holy Spirit directs my search for truth, not a specific Church membership. So that, because I have faith that this Church is the true Church according to the manifestations of the Holy Spirit, then this is where I will be until the end.

Your end statement reminds me of the excerpt John 3: 8

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Thanks for sharing such testimony Anatess, this is the manifestation that is self-evident to each and all of us individually. This is self-evident in the Declaration of Independence, we all possess the spirit that has been endowed by our creator and heavenly father. I believe that everything will be manifested and know that "The Church Of Jesus Christ Of These Latter-days" is a true church. It was through my own spiritual search that I was able to find a true understanding of our heavenly father's plan through Jesus Christ examples. I believe that Thomas S. Monson is a true prophet for these Latter-days. To question anything that opposes this religion is to question my own faith in seeking heavenly father. The scripture is my inheritence that I may be able to feel heavenly fathers marvelous works through the testaments of our savior and past mistakes that nations made before ours. There were nations that were just like America but failed to acknowledge heavenly father and his laws of repenting.

Job 1:1-21

Job, a just and perfect man, is blessed with great riches---Satan obtains leave from the Lord to tempt and try Job ---His property and children are destroyed, and yet he praises and blesses the Lord.

Job 2:1-13

Satan obtains leave from the Lord to afflict Job physically --- He is smitten with boils --Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar come to comfort him.

Job3:1-26

Job curses the day and services of his birth. He asks: Why died I not from the womb?

Job 4:1-21

Eliphaz reproves Job, asking such questions as : Are the righteous cut off? and, Shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Job 5:1-27

Eliphaz counsels Job: Man is born unto trouble; Seek unto God; and, Happy is the man whom God correcteth.

Job 6:1-30

Job bemoans his grief---He prays that God will grant his petitions---Those who are afflicted should be pitied---How forcible are right words!

Job 7:1-21

Job asks: Is there an appointed time for man on earth? What is man that thou shouldst magnify him? Why dost thou not pardon my transgression?

Job 8:1-22

Bildad asks: Doth God pervert judgment? He says: Our days upon earth are a shadow; and, God will not cast away a perfect man.

Job 9:1-35

Job acknowledges the justice and greatnes of God, and concludes that man cannot contend against him.

The book of Job is a testament of my own afflictions and to be able to relate with this individual from many many years before christ is an astounding spiritual unification of how real our heavenly father is. The same principles that is taught in "The Church Of Jesus Christ Of These Latter-days" upholds to this day.

The adversary works hard to confuse and misguide us, but when we confide in the holy ghost it's that still small voice of light that manifest the inevitable cycle that satan, lucifer worked against job still able to work against ourselves. All glory to the most high god, I am so very grateful for his gracious love through Jesus Christ.

I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me, and for the mercy our heavenly father endowed in us with the holy spirit. I would think that the holy spirit is equivalent with the consciousness of right from wrong except that it's a higher understanding of spiritual right from wrong. I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The outer darkness only consists of apostates who know undeniably the truth of the gospel. Which would mean only those who have seen God or Jesus Christ in person. Not talking about those who have seen them spiritually. Which means that it would, essentially, be followers of the devil. Even people like Oliver Cowdrey or other Saints who fell out did not have a perfect light. They did not get the doctrines Joseph Smith Jr. came out with "verified" by Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ. The majority of spirits in outer darkness would be the 1/3rd that chose to follow the Devil instead of enter mortality. In that case, I have no sympathy, they are followers of the Devil who had a perfect light.

Suffice to say that there are more than a few today who would describe even one soul being tortured for all eternity as immoral and unacceptable. The LDS view seems better to such folks, but not "good enough." If God forces one sentient being to suffer for not bowing to him, in their minds that God is evil.

You say you're okay with that and unsympathetic to these tortured souls. I have even more tortured souls in the hell I see in the Bible. So, how do we reconcile these doctrines to the one who challenges our God's goodness? And how do you reconcile those parts of the Church you don't agree with?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

God is still bound by the free will of his children. He cannot save those who choose not to be saved. And really it is a choice. The eternity that we choose will be the one where we are most comfortable. God does not torture us by limiting the light we receive. He simply will not put people in a place where they cannot withstand the light. For some, a very few, there is no light they can tolerate and they are eternally in outer darkness. I don't know that other Christians think that way, but that is what I was taught in the LDS Church.

No pain in the outer darkness? No "wailing and gnashing of teeth?" If you say "no more suffering, tears or death" it will sound too much like the heavenly reward described in Revelation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share