Evil


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So what is the accepted definition of 'natural man?'

Woudl it be one who is not enlightened by the Holy Ghost, or is it one who does not actively search the things of God?

I think once we have that hammered out we'll be able to come to an accord here. I mean, we know the natural man is an enemy to God, and we know that Satan is an enemy to God. Is it possible that the natural man is merely a reference for Satan's influence on man in general?

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I see this

I'd like to focus on #8, the millennial binding of Satan.

Bruce R. McConkie states:

When we speak of the binding of Satan in connectdion with teh millennium, we mean that he will be bound during that era, that his powers will be limited AFTER taht day commences, and NOT that men will turn to righteousness so as to tie the hands of Satan, thereby bringing millennial conditions to pass. The plan does not call fo rmen to turn voluntarily to righteousness thereby causing the thousand year era of peace to commence. Rather, the millennium will be brought about by power; th ewicked will be destroyed; and those only will remain on earth who are sufficiently righteous to abide the day of the Lord's coming

As agreeing with what you said and this

It was this concept that that caused Nephi to write, speaking of hte period AFTER THE COMMENCEMENT of the millennium, that: "Becuase of the righteousness of his people, Satan has no power; wherefore, he cannot be loosed for the space of many years; for he hath no power over the hearts of the poeple, for they dwell in righteousness, and the Holy One of Israel reigneth." (1 Ne. 22:26)"

As agreeing with what I said... Both make the condition of Satan's binding due to the righteousness of the people who are left on the earth, which I feel to be absolutely the key for Satan to be bound

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Right...I believe we're both right to a degree.

I do'nt know if I'd say the key to his binding was the righteousness of the people, though. I mean, sure there have been instances when the righteousness of the poeple was such that he had no power over them for awhile.

the difference stated above is that Christ will physically and personally reign. I tend to think that is the main reason he will have no power at all to do anything. No unclean thing can dwell in ht epresence of God. Whlie Jesus is here on Earth, Satan will not be able to be here, too.

I think the good thing is that it will eventually happen. Let's hope we can all be righteous enough to experience this form the good side, if you will. :)

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I think that some sin arises naturally and Satan only enhances the temptation. For instance, with men, what happens when you see a beautiful girl. We can either cultivate what happens naturally or kill it. Another example would be getting mad about a petty thing that happens in our life. We either let the Devil cultivate it or kill it. You see, from my understanding, the Devil is the one who says ooo that women is better then your wife or that petty incident is a huge deal.

So woudl it be a sin just to see the beautiful girl? The sin arises with the thought that follows.

I do agree that the Devil would enhance things, etc., but to get to the root of the issue I keep seeing that quote that Satan is the father of all evil and sin.

I guess we just need to wear blinders so we can't see the women...or move to Nebraska or something. ;)

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So what is the accepted definition of 'natural man?'

Woudl it be one who is not enlightened by the Holy Ghost, or is it one who does not actively search the things of God?

I think once we have that hammered out we'll be able to come to an accord here. I mean, we know the natural man is an enemy to God, and we know that Satan is an enemy to God. Is it possible that the natural man is merely a reference for Satan's influence on man in general?

I tend to think of the natural man as the flesh. And the flesh...desires, emotions, appetites, impulses... is rather primal and reactive.

I don't think this is the same thing as the influence of Satan, although I can see maybe why you'd ask. I just think Satan uses the convincing reasoning of the flesh to seduce us. Hunger, libido, anger....they are all pretty compelling.

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I tend to think of the natural man as the flesh. And the flesh...desires, emotions, appetites, impulses... is rather primal and reactive.

I don't think this is the same thing as the influence of Satan, although I can see maybe why you'd ask. I just think Satan uses the convincing reasoning of the flesh to seduce us. Hunger, libido, anger....they are all pretty compelling.

I can agree with that.

I mean, we're not just here to overcome Sin but to control our appetites and learn how to master our bodies, etc.

The natural man woudl desire to eat 14,000 calories of food at every meal...but that's not quite what God intended, was it? ;)

I would say the Natural Man are the natural impulses of the flesh that we need to control with our spirit. Satan definitely can throw temptations that are harder to control due to their 'natural nature.'

I agree with you on this.

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Right...I believe we're both right to a degree.

I do'nt know if I'd say the key to his binding was the righteousness of the people, though. I mean, sure there have been instances when the righteousness of the poeple was such that he had no power over them for awhile.

the difference stated above is that Christ will physically and personally reign. I tend to think that is the main reason he will have no power at all to do anything. No unclean thing can dwell in ht epresence of God. Whlie Jesus is here on Earth, Satan will not be able to be here, too.

I think the good thing is that it will eventually happen. Let's hope we can all be righteous enough to experience this form the good side, if you will. :)

heh... knowing how he might be bound it really quite trivial, compared to knowing that he will be.

I know the Book of Mormon was given to us to show us what we need to do and what we are going to face. So I give a lot of weight to the types and shadows that I think it shows us. And there is a lot in common with how things happened before, during, and after Christ coming to America as to that we have been told to expect before, during and after Christ's second coming.

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I think that some sin arises naturally and Satan only enhances the temptation. For instance, with men, what happens when you see a beautiful girl. We can either cultivate what happens naturally or kill it. Another example would be getting mad about a petty thing that happens in our life. We either let the Devil cultivate it or kill it. You see, from my understanding, the Devil is the one who says ooo that women is better then your wife or that petty incident is a huge deal.

I'll post on something you are saying....^_^

Let's talk about your "for instance". What happens when a man feels attracted to a woman is a natural sexual response that is essential for survival. It's what we do next with those feelings, as you have said, makes all the difference. And we've got lots of choices. Lust or respect. Self hatred or bridling. Suppression or patience. Same with anger. Anger is a natural and essential part of the emotional part of our human-ness. We need our anger. It gives us power, calls us to action, and gives us vital information. Again, it's what we do with our anger that makes all the difference. We can shame our anger, or use it to hurt others, or we can use it for good.

I guess what I am saying is that, for me, its less about winning a fight between good and evil and more about how the adversity gives me opportunities to use my agency and develop my ability to discern and become.

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I think that some sin arises naturally and Satan only enhances the temptation. For instance, with men, what happens when you see a beautiful girl. We can either cultivate what happens naturally or kill it. Another example would be getting mad about a petty thing that happens in our life. We either let the Devil cultivate it or kill it. You see, from my understanding, the Devil is the one who says ooo that women is better then your wife or that petty incident is a huge deal.

Oh all right, just because you wanted someone to respond to you! (grumble grumble grumble) :lol:

Your beautiful woman example is a good one. We humans are built to mate with each other, and don't need an external influence to encourage us that way. God would persuade us to use the power of procreation responsibly, and Satan would tell us to (mis)use it wantonly. But the desire to mate is built-in.

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I can agree with that.

I mean, we're not just here to overcome Sin but to control our appetites and learn how to master our bodies, etc.

The natural man woudl desire to eat 14,000 calories of food at every meal...but that's not quite what God intended, was it? ;)

I would say the Natural Man are the natural impulses of the flesh that we need to control with our spirit. Satan definitely can throw temptations that are harder to control due to their 'natural nature.'

I agree with you on this.

I was about to say this as I was reading through the beginning of the thread but then it looks like this conclusion was made.

Satan brought about our carnal state through temptation. Therefore, all the temptations that are put in front of us via the corrupted carnal state of our dual being, both body and spirit is where most of the Satanic influence comes from. I think there are rare occasions where he might directly intervene such as in the sacred grove or after Jesus' 40 day fast, etc. I would say that Satan's direct involvement is probably as rare as God's direct involvement. The natural wiring of the brain (after corruption from the Fall took place, meaning God did not make it that way), the resulting evil workings of the world and the dual nature of our being is how "evil" presents itself in this world. Since the influence from the spirit is more subtle, quiet and takes effort to follow, the default is to follow the "natural" motivations and passions and this is why the natural man is an enemy to God.

I think this idea is much easier to comprehend and accept when one realizes how much different we are and how far we have fallen from our pre-mortal self. If one thinks we have barely changed then it would seem like we would need some additional promptings from an external source of evil to make it happen. But if you realize that we lost thousands to millions if not more years of training in the presence of God (the veil - which could be a good description of what the body does), then we are way way different than our self used to be before this life. And only in that setting does the evil have a chance to influence and test. For some, they will incorporate those desires into spiritual ones and so the temptation continues. But if we are faithful then the "evil" influences stop at death (which to me is another suggestion of where the evil comes from), come unto my rest.

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The fall of Adam and Eve from the scripture account is most interesting. It is interesting to me because Satan beguiled Eve. This means that he misled her. In essence she thought she was choosing one thing but in reality she was choosing something very different.

As we contemplate the essence of good and evil, I am quite surprised that we lay evil at the door of those that are deceived. I do not believe we should do that or count someone as evil that chooses wrongly because they were deceived. It is very difficult for me to believe anyone would actually choose evil over good. But how can G-d allow his beloved children to be overrun with ignorance and taken down to hell thinking all along they were choosing something very different.

I do not believe the essence of evil is ignorance. I believe the essence of evil in knowing full well what the choice in tells and choosing that which is harmful (usually to others) in order to fulfill a selfish desire. That I why I believe the first step into evil is to focus on self – what I want, my will, my wish, my pleasures, my orientation – what will make me happy, what I deserve or should get. Not as a deception but as a choice to indulge self. Goodness is the opposite – to actually lose yourself – to sacrifice and discipline oneself – not for self but to loose one’s self for a cause believed greater.

I truly believe that to focus on one’s self – one’s glory – one’s blessings – even one’s salvation is the very essence and beginning of evil. The only way to good is through sacrifice of that self; through discipline. Every warning in scripture is a warning to avoid self-indulgence and every suggestion (commandment) is to give one’s self to some sort of discipline outside or away from self.

The Traveler

PS - I thought to add one more thing - I believe it is possible to achieve "spiritual" evil as well as "physical" evil - Satan and his followers that were expelled from heaven being a broad case in point.

Edited by Traveler
ps
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The Traveler

PS - I thought to add one more thing - I believe it is possible to achieve "spiritual" evil as well as "physical" evil - Satan and his followers that were expelled from heaven being a broad case in point.

As stated in another thread, you believe that we are not responsible or accountable, so how is it possible that one could achieve "physical" evil without being responsible for one's actions?

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As stated in another thread, you believe that we are not responsible or accountable, so how is it possible that one could achieve "physical" evil without being responsible for one's actions?

That is, in part, the mission of this life. To obtain a knowledge of evil (as well as good) without having to be accountable - or in other words, being able to repent. In this life we experience results from choices - mostly that we do not comprehend or understand.

I believe that following death there is "time" allotted in which we will come to understand fully all aspects of both good and evil from our experiences. Then with full knowledge we will have a PPI with our Father (symbolically represented in some scriptures as the mercy seat). There with the assistance of two Cherubums (according to prophesy) we will make our choice, our destiny and our desire known to all - in full knowledge and understanding as to our resurrection and place in eternity.

Those that desire evil (to what ever degree) will obtain their desire at that time. But the first step to that destiny will have taken place long before - and that step, I believe it to be self indulgence or the service of self on one hand or discipline and sacrifice of self on the other hand. This is called the "final judgement" because I believe it is because we will finally will have all knowledge necessary and sufficient to make that choice to be responsible and accountable.

Dose this make sense to you? Does anything else? Is there really any other possibility that is just and true as well as merciful and kind?

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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I do not believe the essence of evil is ignorance. I believe the essence of evil in knowing full well what the choice in tells and choosing that which is harmful (usually to others) in order to fulfill a selfish desire.

Ignorance can result in undesirable, or "evil," consequences, but I agree that it is not the essence of moral evil. If a person does something that she knows is wrong, that is obviously more evil than if they did it in ignorance. Although none of us has a perfect knowledge of anything, and yet we can still do evil things.

That I why I believe the first step into evil is to focus on self – what I want, my will, my wish, my pleasures, my orientation – what will make me happy, what I deserve or should get. Not as a deception but as a choice to indulge self. Goodness is the opposite – to actually lose yourself – to sacrifice and discipline oneself – not for self but to loose one’s self for a cause believed greater.

I truly believe that to focus on one’s self – one’s glory – one’s blessings – even one’s salvation is the very essence and beginning of evil. The only way to good is through sacrifice of that self; through discipline. Every warning in scripture is a warning to avoid self-indulgence and every suggestion (commandment) is to give one’s self to some sort of discipline outside or away from self.

To an extent I agree, but would qualify it by saying that focusing exclusively on oneself, when you have the option of paying attention to others, can result in evil. Babies are very self-centered. Their purpose in life, for the time being, is to get their needs met and grow. But babies are not evil--they just are what they are. If a person chooses to remain in that babyish state, forever demanding that everybody else take care of them, without contributing anything in return, even though they're now 25 years old, then we have a problem. But at the normal infant stage of life, there is nothing evil about being self-centered.

Even as an adult, there are times when a person needs to focus on herself and meet her own needs, or sometimes seek help from others. But you're totally right that if they focus exclusively on themselves, such that they ignore other people's needs, or even harm them, that is evil.

PS - I thought to add one more thing - I believe it is possible to achieve "spiritual" evil as well as "physical" evil - Satan and his followers that were expelled from heaven being a broad case in point.

Could you clarify, please, what you mean by "spiritual" vs. "physical" evil? Just want to understand what you're saying. ;)

Peace,

HEP

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That is, in part, the mission of this life. To obtain a knowledge of evil (as well as good) without having to be accountable - or in other words, being able to repent. In this life we experience results from choices - mostly that we do not comprehend or understand.

I believe that following death there is "time" allotted in which we will come to understand fully all aspects of both good and evil from our experiences. Then with full knowledge we will have a PPI with our Father (symbolically represented in some scriptures as the mercy seat). There with the assistance of two Cherubums (according to prophesy) we will make our choice, our destiny and our desire known to all - in full knowledge and understanding as to our resurrection and place in eternity.

Those that desire evil (to what ever degree) will obtain their desire at that time. But the first step to that destiny will have taken place long before - and that step, I believe it to be self indulgence or the service of self on one hand or discipline and sacrifice of self on the other hand. This is called the "final judgement" because I believe it is because we will finally will have all knowledge necessary and sufficient to make that choice to be responsible and accountable.

Dose this make sense to you? Does anything else? Is there really any other possibility that is just and true as well as merciful and kind?

The Traveler

I disagree with the idea that we experience the results of our choices here, fully. I think because of the lack of fully understanding the consequences, that aspect of our choices - "the results" is the thing that we may not fully comprehend. To fully comprehend a choice before it is made, though, may be an impossibility. I think you are suggesting an ideal that is not really possible. How would anyone know, for example, what being Celestial is really like before they are made a Celestial being? We are never really going to know or experience the results of our actions until the results are received. But, that doesn't limit choice.

One thing to keep in mind, as you are pointing out as well, is that our choices here are not based in knowledge. I don't think it was intended to be that way. The choices made before this life were. But, here the test is of our true natures. What is in our heart. This isn't a test of reasoning ability, per se. It is more of how we act in certain situations. It is a revelation of the character of our being from which our Father in Heaven can determine where we need to be in the next life. It is like going into a final exam, one hopes they have done all the learning they can before taking the test. The minor objective of this life is to obtain knowledge. The primary test is to see if we will do the things we said we would.

An example of that would be to think about a soldier in training, in boot camp, would say that he would return to the battle field to save his fellow injured soldier. But it isn't until the soldier is in the middle of the heat of the battle that one could actually see if that is true. How many soldiers would actually go back for their fellow injured soldiers? That is the test. We already said we would "intellectually" obey and follow the plan. Here we are showing that we would when facing the heat of the battle. It reveals how far we would go to obey, what is in our heart. This is not a test of comprehension. This would be a horrible way to test comprehension, to put someone behind a veil, etc.

I don't understand the significance or the need to have experiences that are only understood in a hindsight manner. What is the real value of the experience then? I can learn about everyone else' experience in the same way, in hindsight, if the actual having the experience means nothing or if the comprehension is only obtained via explanation.

In fact, having the experience is not necessary. We know that because those that die before the age of accountability do not experience sin and yet will make it into the Celestial Kingdom. And, by the way, there is no need to call the age of accountability a certain number unless there is actually accountability at that age.

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