Sealing Powers and Parental salvation?

[Maureen]

Originally Posted by President James E. Faust

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.” 8

Ah good, so maybe that's the part that my parent's have overlooked. Besides, I am a practicing believing Christian so I don't really see myself as any more wayward or in need of repentance than any given Mormon.

Can a child who wanders away from the LDS fold into a different Christian fold be considered wayward? If this child still accepts Christ's atonement, will they still need to pay their debt to justice; will they still need to suffer for their sins? Or would this be a case of living in different glorified kingdoms, one Celestial the other not? Can a parent's righteousness elevate a child into a higher kingdom?

M.

[Just_A_Guy]

Can a child who wanders away from the LDS fold into a different Christian fold be considered wayward?

My personal opinion--and I cannot base this on any official Church doctrine, or even any non-official-yet-authoritative-sounding source--is that there's a difference between "saving" and "exalting" (President Snow's quote-already cited here-notwithstanding). I would venture to guess that the sealing covenant "saves" a wayward child, but does not "exalt" him.

This paradigm wouldn't be problematic to the hypothetical you offer, since in LDS theology true Christians--regardless of religious affiliation--will have no problem being saved; the sticky point is whether they can be exalted.

If this child still accepts Christ's atonement, will they still need to pay their debt to justice; will they still need to suffer for their sins?

I don't believe it's possible for anyone but Jesus to completely suffer for his/her own sins and then be "saved". If it were, that would obviate the need for a Redeemer in the first place. Jesus may ask us to partake of an infinitesimal portion of that suffering prior to salvation, but the idea that we can be saved merely by some amount of "suffering" for our sins is frankly ludicrous, even in Mormon theology.

Or would this be a case of living in different glorified kingdoms, one Celestial the other not? Can a parent's righteousness elevate a child into a higher kingdom?

I believe that the litmus test of which kingdom one receives is not what one has done, but what one has become. The question isn't whether I've "earned" my way into godhood; the question is whether God can trust me to safely and wisely wield the kind of power He possesses.

(I also don't believe that geographical/spatial differences are of any lasting significance in the eternities. Our theology may teach that the earth will be a home for the celestialized; but Paul describes (while discussing the resurrection) bodies celestial and terrestrial. In other words, the primary difference is what you are, not where you are.)

Edited June 8, 2012 by Just_A_Guy

[Sicily510]

Their righteousness and sacrifice makes it possible to receive a blessing that requires a greater sacrifice. Having a child turn their heart around is one of those things I'd sacrifice for. I pray my children have an Alma the Younger moment. I hope I live righteously enough to qualify for that blessing.

I don't know how else to answer you than that.

Interesting that you share that thought Applepansy. Growing up in my circumstances my parents, whom didn't live in line in the Lords teachings, consequently led to my families separation. My parents are divorced, but what was odd for me even to think of it now was the fact that prior to my families masquerade of attending church we all are still members. Some are members just not adhering to the gospels "Words of Wisdoms" and others flourishing in the blessing of keeping the commandments. We all have the knoweledge of "Families can be together forever" and because we were separated we strive to still want to be together spiritually.

The adversary works so hard to cause us to rise up against each other, I'm the youngest of seven and was born into a family that I thought that we all share the same father and mother. I found out after the trial we went through that I had half siblings and it broke my heart because I couldn't fathom that we were half and not full blooded siblings. The fact that my parents took our family while we were young to church helped us, we pretty much grew up through the grace of heavenly father. Our parents were too corrupted in their ways that it was becoming a curse. Fortunately, we were in a wonderful ward that saw the afflictions that our family was going through. They were involved in helping with foster placements for the younger ones, the older siblings already were out of the home living as young adults. The older siblings couldn't care for us because they were in need of help themselves, no parents to turn to. Each of us had heavenly father to build trust and love from because of our parents poor decisions they've made.

[Finrock]

Ah good, so maybe that's the part that my parent's have overlooked. Besides, I am a practicing believing Christian so I don't really see myself as any more wayward or in need of repentance than any given Mormon.

I think it is helpful to understand "wayward" from your parents frame of reference. I'm gonna boldly state that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church on this earth and therefore any deviation from it and its precepts must be wayward.

I don't think they have overlooked the part about the child needing to repent. The quote mentions that sooner or later the "tentacles of Divine Providence" (I love Joseph Smiths description here) will begin to draw the wayward child back to the fold. I think the point is that one day you will decide to come back because of the righteous influence of your parents. I think your parents know that repentance must take part but I also think they understand, quite correctly, that the sealing power of God is nothing to trifle with! For instance, is it possible that you are already feeling the draw of those tenticles? Is it possible you are simply resisting the draw by trying to find a reason to disbelieve in the faith of your parents or by trying to find something that might cause them to waiver in what they believe about the sealing powers?

"Let the father and mother, who are members of this Church and Kingdom, take a righteous course, and strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives; if they have one child or one hundred children, if they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord by their faith and prayers, I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang" (Brigham Young; Source).

I have five children and this doctrine is glorious to me! Good luck.

Regards,

Finrock

[grauchy123]

I don't think it's official doctrine that parents can save their children no matter what. That just doesn't fit with doctrine about sin and punishment.

I'm inclined to agree with you.

I've placed my faith in Christ for salvation. If I were to accept this Doctrine of parental salvation then I would be redirecting my eye from Christ to my Parents hoping with faith that they can be righteous enough to engage the sealing powers so that I can be saved.

[Guest]

And he finally gets around to it.

[Maureen]

And he finally gets around to it.

What do you mean by this statement Eowyn?

M.

[Guest]

I mean what the OP has been tiptoeing around is the (false) notion that Mormons don't put their faith in Christ. He's been waiting to get that jab in, but fortunately for him was able to throw in a couple other zingers on the way here.

In my opinion.

[Dravin]

Actually Eowyn, I think he's just not understanding the doctrine, by his own admission. The doctrine talked about in this thread does not propose a work-around having faith in Christ. Part and parcel of the doctrine, as talked about by President Faust, is that the child will repent, part of which is going to include having faith in Christ.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Dravin

[grauchy123]

I mean what the OP has been tiptoeing around is the (false) notion that Mormons don't put their faith in Christ. He's been waiting to get that jab in, but fortunately for him was able to throw in a couple other zingers on the way here.

In my opinion.

I never said that Mormons don't put their faith in Christ. I said that if *I* accepted parental salvation then *I* would be redirecting my faith.

I'm still not sure if it's an actual Mormon Doctrine or not. Seems some on this thread think is it others don't.

I was hoping you all would tell me unequivocally that it's a false doctrine then I could let my parents know and relieve them of the pressure. Because right now they are trying to be righteous enough to save their wayward children on top of everything else.

Edited June 8, 2012 by grauchy123

[Maureen]

My personal opinion--and I cannot base this on any official Church doctrine, or even any non-official-yet-authoritative-sounding source--is that there's a difference between "saving" and "exalting" (President Snow's quote-already cited here-notwithstanding). I would venture to guess that the sealing covenant "saves" a wayward child, but does not "exalt" him.

This paradigm wouldn't be problematic to the hypothetical you offer, since in LDS theology true Christians--regardless of religious affiliation--will have no problem being saved; the sticky point is whether they can be exalted....

I understand that this is your opinion but it seems backwards in regards to LDS doctrine. LDS doctrine says that it is Christ that saves us, even if you equate resurrection with saves, only Christ can bring about our resurrection. So in light of LDS doctrine it would seem more appropriate to say that Christ would save the wayward child, but it is the sealing covenant that may have the power to exalt. Since exaltation is determined by the person honoring the covenants he/she makes with God.

M.

[Dravin]

I'm still not sure if it's an actual Mormon Doctrine or not. Seems some on this thread think is it others don't.

I was hoping you all would tell me unequivocally that it's a false doctrine then I could let my parents know and relieve them of the pressure. Because right now they are trying to be righteous enough to save their wayward children on top of everything else.

Do you really think "I asked a bunch of Mormon people online and they said it's a false doctrine." is going to cause a 'eureka moment'?

Edited June 8, 2012 by Dravin

[Vort]

I'm still not sure if it's an actual Mormon Doctrine or not. Seems some on this thread think is it others don't.

I was hoping you all would tell me unequivocally that it's a false doctrine then I could let my parents know and relieve them of the pressure. Because right now they are trying to be righteous enough to save their wayward children on top of everything else.

I don't understand. You say you grew up in the Church and your parents are faithful Latter-day Saints, yet you know so little about LDS doctrine and how it is established that you can't figure out whether a teaching is false doctrine, or even determine HOW to figure out if it's false doctrine?

[Anddenex]

I'm inclined to agree with you.

I've placed my faith in Christ for salvation. If I were to accept this Doctrine of parental salvation then I would be redirecting my eye from Christ to my Parents hoping with faith that they can be righteous enough to engage the sealing powers so that I can be saved.

The idea of accepting this doctrine, if true, would not turn your eye from the true vine and the source of our salvation and exaltation.

A parents righteousness is only possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. There is no Salvation without Christ, as such, "Parental Salvation" is an incorrect place of words.

Some, have incorrectly, interpreted these passages, focusing on the parents. The focus is not the parents, but the focus is the "sealing" and the sealing performed by the "priesthood" which is only granted through Christ. Without the "sealing", without the "priesthood", a parent's righteousness is futile.

This is no different than the covenant God made with Abraham. Through the righteousness of Abraham, all of his children receive specific blessings. Or, one can say, through the righteousness of a parent, the children have been blessed. This doesn't turn a eye, from the true giver of the gift, but it does provide me as one of the children, great-great-great grandchildren of Abraham, to be thankful to a parent who lived such a life, that I would receive a blessing from.

In your case, should your parents continue to live a righteous life, sufficient for redemption and exaltation, you will receive a blessing from your parents as we receive blessings from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph. Yet, as with these men, we all know these promised blessings, due to the righteousness of these men, is not possible without turning our eye to Christ, as they did, and as they still do.

I agree with a previous post, there is a difference between "Salvation" and "Exaltation", and Joseph Fielding Smith explained in the Doctrines of Salvation, that due to a parent righteousness, children who are sealed, by the priesthood will have the opportunity, after they have suffered for their sins, to be allowed entrance into the Celestial kingdom. I would agree with this interpretation. The children still receive their consequence, yet the family is not separated.

[Maureen]

I mean what the OP has been tiptoeing around is the (false) notion that Mormons don't put their faith in Christ. He's been waiting to get that jab in, but fortunately for him was able to throw in a couple other zingers on the way here.

In my opinion.

Well of course, he once was a member, then chose not to be a member, so he obviously must have some evil ulterior motives for asking questions on this forum. You don't believe in giving ex-members the benefit of the doubt?

M.

[grauchy123]

I don't understand. You say you grew up in the Church and your parents are faithful Latter-day Saints, yet you know so little about LDS doctrine and how it is established that you can't figure out whether a teaching is false doctrine, or even determine HOW to figure out if it's false doctrine?

Correct, in my 40 years as a member, I never heard of the possibility of a parent saving a child through the sealing power.

As to determining if it's a False Doctrine.... *I* believe it is False, I was hoping that you guys could direct me to some sources that show that from the official LDS perspective it's also False. But it seems that this Doctrine is up for some debate and it's not clear that it's all True or all False from the LDS perspective. So there's no conclusion I guess.

Thanks for contributing!

[Vort]

Correct, in my 40 years as a member, I never heard of the possibility of a parent saving a child through the sealing power.

As to determining if it's a False Doctrine.... *I* believe it is False, I was hoping that you guys could direct me to some sources that show that from the official LDS perspective it's also False.

You appear to have more or less completely missed what I asked. Here it is again:

You say you grew up in the Church and your parents are faithful Latter-day Saints, yet you know so little about LDS doctrine and how it is established that you can't figure out whether a teaching is false doctrine, or even determine HOW to figure out if it's false doctrine?

[estradling75]

Correct, in my 40 years as a member, I never heard of the possibility of a parent saving a child through the sealing power.

The bolded part is where you (and your parents if they truly believe it) are getting it wrong... The parents can not save a child... Only Christ can. The parents Faith in Christ can trigger miracles from Christ in reclaiming the wayward child, but they can not save them of themselves. In your 40 years of the Church I am sure you heard of the conversion story of Alma the younger. Your parents are hoping for something similar in the case of their wayward children.

Don't confuse the Lord's promises to the faithful, to saying the the faithful themselves do it.

Edited June 8, 2012 by estradling75

[grauchy123]

The bolded part is where you (and your parents if they truly believe it) are getting it wrong... The parents can not save a child... Only Christ can. The parents Faith in Christ can trigger miracles from Christ in reclaiming the wayward child, but they can not save them of themselves. In your 40 years of the Church I am sure you heard of the conversion story of Alma the younger. Your parents are hoping for something similar in the case of their wayward children.

Don't confuse the Lord's promises to the faithful, to saying the the faithful themselves do it.

Perhaps you are right, maybe my parents are hoping for that. But from our conversation it sounded more like they were complaining that they now have to double down to ensure that the sealing powers will bring me and my brother into the Celestial Kingdom.

Does that sound like they have a proper understanding? I don't think so.

I'm wondering if there is a tactful way of letting them down easy about that.

Edited June 8, 2012 by grauchy123

[Guest]

That's not fair, Maureen. I've never made any accusations of you or even thought to. I have, however, seen him make swipes at the church wherever he could in this thread.

[Maureen]

That's not fair, Maureen. I've never made any accusations of you or even thought to. I have, however, seen him make swipes at the church wherever he could in this thread.

For one thing I am not ex-Mormon but the OP is. You have read him differently than I have, I have seen nothing of the sort from grauchy123.

M.

[Guest]

My mistake, I thought you were a former member.

[Dravin]

I'm wondering if there is a tactful way of letting them down easy about that.

It could possibly be a communication issue rather than misunderstanding, but you're the one who actually had the conversation with them. If they have a computer and you don't mind outing yourself for having asked you could direct them to this thread, I really think, "I talked with some active members and they seem inclined to think you might be misunderstanding the doctrine a little bit, it was online if you wanted to talk with them about it." would go over better than a possible, "Some active members said that's false."

And above all I'd avoid trying to argue the issue yourself with them, I brought it up earlier but it'd be very easy for them to chalk you up as being disgruntled and trying to bring down their faith if you aren't very careful with how you approach things.

[applepansy]

Perhaps you are right, maybe my parents are hoping for that. But from our conversation it sounded more like they were complaining that they now have to double down to ensure that the sealing powers will bring me and my brother into the Celestial Kingdom.

Does that sound like they have a proper understanding? I don't think so.

I'm wondering if there is a tactful way of letting them down easy about that.

You still don't get it. You do not have the power to change your parents minds about this.

From what you posted it sounds like they are trying the "guilt trip" routine to bring you back. It won't work, never does. But just because they can't guilt you into a testimony, you can't talk them out of their testimony of the sealing covenants.

[Just_A_Guy]

I understand that this is your opinion but it seems backwards in regards to LDS doctrine. LDS doctrine says that it is Christ that saves us, even if you equate resurrection with saves, only Christ can bring about our resurrection. So in light of LDS doctrine it would seem more appropriate to say that Christ would save the wayward child, but it is the sealing covenant that may have the power to exalt. Since exaltation is determined by the person honoring the covenants he/she makes with God.

M.

I think I would phrase it as saying that a parent's dedication to living up to the responsibilities that the sealing covenant entails will prepare the child, at some future point, to accept Christ as his or her savior, accept the gift of salvation that He offers, and then live his or her life in a way that honors that gift.

I am a little curious as to whether mainline Christianity allows for the possibility that a parent's conduct can help (or deter) a child to attain the kind of relationship with Christ that brings salvation. Because, IMHO, that's more or less the same thing that we're talking about here.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Just_A_Guy