Jesus Christ Superstar! 1973

[bytor2112]

Changed by the event? What event? Of Jesus' death? Moved by the death... without a resurrection. When the entire time, the play has declared that Jesus is just a man... how moving to see a MAN die on the cross. It's about as moving as seeing Abraham Lincoln shot at the theater.

Good message indeed.

By the way, I edited my post above to quote what Tim Rice wanted to tell us through this play. It pretty much aligns with what I saw in the play. It would be great if you can read it if you haven't caught the edit.

I am surprised at how shallow you are? Changed by the story of Christ. (1973 version)

Wikipedia describes it thus: ( I concur with their description:

Jesus Christ Superstar is a rock opera by Andrew Lloyd Webber, with lyrics by Tim Rice. The musical started off as a rock opera concept recording before its first staging on Broadway in 1971. The musical is based very loosely on the Gospels' account of the last week of Jesus' life, beginning with the preparation for the arrival of Jesus and his disciples in Jerusalem, and ending with the crucifixion. It highlights political and interpersonal struggles between Judas Iscariot and Jesus, struggles that are not in the Bible. The resurrection is not included. It therefore largely follows the form of a traditional passion play.

The work's depiction offers a free interpretation of the psychology of Jesus and the other characters. A large part of the plot focuses on the character of Judas, who is depicted as a tragic figure who is dissatisfied with the direction in which Jesus steers his disciples. 20th-century attitudes and sensibilities as well as contemporary slang pervade the lyrics, and ironic allusions to modern life are scattered throughout the depiction of political events. Stage and film productions accordingly feature many intentional anachronisms.

Edited June 14, 2012 by bytor2112

[Guest]

I am surprised at how shallow you are? Changed by the story of Christ. (1973 version)

Wikipedia describes it thus: ( I concur with their description:

Sure, if you're talking about "changed" as in... "hey, I saw Trayvon Martin got shot by Zimmerman so I don't go around following black kids in hoodies anymore" changed... sure.

Because really... what was the story the actors saw through the play? There was nothing touching on Christ's love for us, there was nothing solidifying Christ's divinity. As one of the songs even goes, Christ doesn't even think the poor can be helped! So, what is it really that got them changed?

And no, I am not shallow. I am not looking at the play through my own biblical lens. I am looking at the play through the play's biblical lens. And there's nothing in it... NOTHING that is moving.

Oh sure, if you like rock music, the beat is quite catchy... well, okay, moving. Until you sing the words...

[bytor2112]

Sure, if you're talking about "changed" as in... "hey, I saw Trayvon Martin got shot by Zimmerman so I don't go around following black kids in hoodies anymore" changed... sure.

Ridiculously obtuse.

Because really... what was the story the actors saw through the play?

They were unexpectedly changed by it..religious conversion.

From Wiki:

Under the final score ("John Nineteen: Forty-One"), the crew is seen striking the sets, as the cast reboards the bus from the beginning of the film. The actor who portrayed Jesus is noticeably absent. The rest of the crew board the bus sadly but resignedly. The bus and crew drive off; in the last scene of an empty cross against the sunset, a silhouette of a shepherd with his flock can be seen walking across the screen.

there was nothing touching on Christ's love for us, there was nothing solidifying Christ's divinity.

Disagree. Gethsemane, Hosanna, etc.

Jesus from the movie:

Father forgive them.

They don't know what they're doing.

My God, my God, why have you forgotten me?

Father, into your hands, I commend my spirit.

As one of the songs even goes, Christ doesn't even think the poor can be helped!

11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

John 12:8

8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.

Mark 14:7

7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

And no, I am not shallow. I am not looking at the play through my own biblical lens. I am looking at the play through the play's biblical lens. And there's nothing in it... NOTHING that is moving.

Others interpret the film differently ....including myself. The OP said the film really helped her and there is nothing in it moving to You.

Edited June 14, 2012 by bytor2112

[Guest]

Ridiculously obtuse.

Okay.

They were unexpectedly changed by it..religious conversion.

There was nothing religious about the entire play. Okay, celebrity worship was present but it has no spiritual meaning.

Disagree. Gethsemane, Hosanna, etc.

I can't talk about the movie. I haven't seen it. In the Play:

Gethsemane (I Only Want to Say)

--- the song is sung by Jesus who does not know what his purpose was for dying. He is just following through on what he understood God (never indicated that God is His father) started and he has to finish.

My impression when I first heard this song (I saw the play when I was around 15 or so) - Jesus was thrown to the wolves by a God who never told him what he was in for. Jesus comes out like a victim of God's purposes - no indication if the purpose was for good or for evil.

Here's the lyrics if it is different from the movie:

I only want to say

If there is a way

Take this cup away from me

For I don't want to taste its poison

Feel it burn me,

I have changed I'm not as sure

As when we started

Then I was inspired

Now I'm sad and tired

Listen surely I've exceeded expectations

Tried for three years

Seems like thirty

Could you ask as much

From any other man?

But if I die

See the saga through

And do the things you ask of me

Let them hate me, hit me, hurt me

Nail me to their tree

I'd want to know

I'd want to know my God

I'd want to see

I'd want to see my God

Why I should die

Would I be more noticed

Than I ever was before?

Would the things I've said and done

Matter any more?

I'd have to know

I'd have to know my Lord

I'd have to see

I'd have to see my Lord

If I die what will be my reward?

I'd have to know

I'd have to know my Lord

Why, why should I die?

Oh, why should I die?

Can you show me now

That I would not be killed in vain?

Show me just a little

Of your omnipresent brain

Show me there's a reason

For your wanting me to die

You're far too keen on where and how

But not so hot on why

Alright I'll die!

Just watch me die!

See how, see how I die!

Oh, just watch me die!

Then I was inspired

Now I'm sad and tired

After all I've tried for three years

Seems like ninety

Why then am I scared

To finish what I started

What you started

I didn't start it

God thy will is hard

But you hold every card

I will drink your cup of poison

Nail me to your cross and break me

Bleed me, beat me

Kill me, take me now

Before I change my mind

Hosanna

-- in the play, Hosanna was sung by a crowd treating Jesus like a Superstar.

My impression:

It's pretty cool except in that in the play, there's nothing that indicated Jesus was more than just a celebrity. So, it rang more of matinee idol worship.

I'm not going to delve into the etc. because all of Judas' parts were just not even the Judas that we know and Mary and Simon the Zealot even more so.

Jesus from the movie:

Father forgive them.

They don't know what they're doing.

My God, my God, why have you forgotten me?

Father, into your hands, I commend my spirit.

If you follow this entire act from the Last Supper to the Crucifixion (note, I never saw the movie, I'm only talking of the play), this part doesn't really fall into the context of how it is in the Bible.

11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

John 12:8

8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.

Mark 14:7

7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

This is not even close to the song.

Here it is in Jesus the Superstar's words:

Surely you're not saying

We have the resources

To save the poor from their lot?

There will be poor always

Pathetically struggling

Look at the good things you've got!

Think while you still have me

Move while you still see me

You'll be lost

You'll be so sorry

When I'm gone

So, if you put this together with Jesus' reaction to the crowd's treatment of him (e.g. the song The Temple), it basically gives you the impression that Jesus is contemptuous that He is asked to deal with people's misfortune.

Others interpret the film differently ....including myself. The OP said the film really helped her and there is nothing in it moving to You.

The OP said the movie led her to question. Nothing wrong with that and that's great even! There is nothing in the play that answers the question or even comes close to hinting at the answer.

Sure, everybody has their own interpretation of the play. Just like there are a lot of interpretation of the Bible. And you can take away from it what you will. But, the INTENT of the play that Tim Rice was trying to portray was that Jesus was nothing more than a mortal celebrity. And that's exactly what I got out of it.

Edited June 14, 2012 by anatess

[bytor2112]

Well...it sounds as though Tim Rice failed. Since I don't share his vision and apparently many others don't as well. Now, it is my understanding that The Norman Jewison film differs from the play and even the music is different?

That said, I am not advocating the film as a way to Come unto Christ, but I personally enjoyed some of the songs in the movie and found the portrayal of Christ in Gethsemane moving.....(not moving in the same way I would view Oh Divine Redeemer)

If I were to become analytical and dissect the movie as to doctrinal accuracy and reverent portrayal of the last week in the Life of the Savior, it would receive an epic fail.

Edited June 14, 2012 by bytor2112

[Hala401]

I am surprised at how shallow you are? Changed by the story of Christ. (1973 version)

Wikipedia describes it thus: ( I concur with their description:

I think the resurrection was included, because when they drove away, the cross was empty.

Just a thought.

[Hala401]

Please, I'm sorry. I did not mean to cause such strife. I just wanted to share something that touched me deeply.

[Guest]

I think the resurrection was included, because when they drove away, the cross was empty.

Just a thought.

In the play, the cross was empty because Jesus was taken down after he died. If you notice, Jesus was not one of the actors that went back in the bus. Nothing in the play from the opening act all the way to the finale touched on or even hinted at the resurrection.

Please, I'm sorry. I did not mean to cause such strife. I just wanted to share something that touched me deeply.

No strife at all. Just 2 people who saw the same play and took 2 completely different takes on it. You could have talked about Star Wars and we'd have the same differences in opinion.

It's super great that it touched you deep enough to investigate Christianity. Now that you're farther along in your journey, you now recognize the "true story". So you went through it line upon line, precept upon precept. I came from the other side of the coin... I already had a firm grasp of the "true story" so it grated on my sensibilities to have the story twisted in that manner. Make sense?

[Guest]

If you two were my daughters I'd put you on stools facing one another and make you say 5 genuine things you like about each other.

[Hala401]

If you two were my daughters I'd put you on stools facing one another and make you say 5 genuine things you like about each other.

But Mother, I ditn do anything.

[mnn727]

It was a wonderful movie - I bought the soundtrack after seeing it (yes vinyl albums - showing my age)

We also saw the play when it came to town a few years ago.

[Guest]

If you two were my daughters I'd put you on stools facing one another and make you say 5 genuine things you like about each other.

It wasn't Hala, mommy! It was Bytor! You need to put him in the corner!

Oh, but I can say 5 genuine things I like about Bytor... He has great taste in boxing, he has great taste in boxing, he has great taste in boxing, he has great taste in boxing, he has great taste in boxing...

[Guest]

Yeah, I meant anatess and bytor. Maybe I should let you box it out.

My SIL used to make her boys do the 5 compliments thing. They would usually start as something like, "I like when you leave. I like when you're not here. I like when you go away. . ." The good thing was, they'd be laughing together by the time they were done.