New Atheism

[Princess3dward]

This makes me so sad.

Everyones testimony will get tested,

and it keeps getting harder.

They will make it so it is "embarassing to have a belief in God".

....People like this stink....

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,71985-0.html

[LionHeart]

That is very sad. It makes me wonder why these people feel the need to begin a crusade against religion. How do they figure that they have any right in attempting to impose on anyone's religious beliefs?

L.H.

[Dror]

They are right about one thing--we cannot prove that God exists (only He can ).

What they are wrong about is that empiricism is the only way to gain true knowledge. We LDS have the advantage of believing in personal revelation, that we can receive a spiritual witness. We cannot quantify God, and we cannot prove Him to others, but we can personally experience Him, and there's no arguing with personal experience.

It is possible that God has purposely made it so we cannot prove His existence to other people. He may want for everybody to come to Him as individuals, or perhaps for us to learn to exercise faith.

Sure is puzzling why they should so fiercely desire to tear down the beliefs of religious people, though. Unless, somehow, they have themselves been harmed by religious people or their beliefs. Who knows?!

Dror

[Dr T]

Thanks for the link Des. I find that stuff interesting. I would like to read The God Delusion but his approach has a reputation of being off putting. Anyway, thanks again Des.

[Princess3dward]

You are welcome Dr.T

[sgallan]

Let me see if I understand. It is okay for religious people to attempt to convert others to what they believe, but it isn't okay if the roles are reversed? Is this what I am hearing as being suggested?

How do they figure that they have any right in attempting to impose on anyone's religious beliefs?

Works for me. I am guessing - in order to be consistant - that you are okay with me raising a secularist and more than likely a future non-believer, right?

[pushka]

I think the reason they are taking this debate so seriously, in my opinion, is that so many atheists see 'religion' as a cause of mass destruction over the centuries.

[Dr T]

I have to laugh at that argument Push. Not because you stated it but because of the death rate of those that champion an atheistic worldview. Just look at history! It is ridiculous to say, "Look at religious atrocities" (which do exist-don't get me wrong) while thinking it doesn't/didn't happen amongst people who believe in no god.

[pushka]

Yeah, sorry Doc..that was a very simplistic viewpoint to take, and I do agree with you that there are many non religious people who cause mass destruction too...

I'm just reading thru the whole 8 pages of the article in between reading other posts on here, so my opinion will probably change about their thoughts anyway as I progress...

[Tsuzuki]

Turning atheism into a religion is about the stupidest thing in the world. It makes a mockery of reason by treating it like faith.

Give me agnosticism over atheism any day.

[sgallan]

I think the reason they are taking this debate so seriously, in my opinion, is that so many atheists see 'religion' as a cause of mass destruction over the centuries.

And my experience has been that so many thiests seem to think athiests are some sort of heathens utterly absense of any moral compass.

Is there a double standard?

It is ridiculous to say, "Look at religious atrocities" (which do exist-don't get me wrong) while thinking it doesn't/didn't happen amongst people who believe in no god.

Indeed.

Give me agnosticism over atheism any day.

I absolutely do not believe in any God. Therefore I am an thiest. But I can't prove this anymore than any of you can disprove any of the other Gods, ghosts, and the hundreds of other hostirocal entities/myths.

[Tsuzuki]

Give me agnosticism over atheism any day.

I absolutely do not believe in any God. Therefore I am an thiest. But I can't prove this anymore than any of you can disprove any of the other Gods, ghosts, and the hundreds of other hostirocal entities/myths.

There is more to religion than God(s), and I can prove that the ideas found in Mormonism, Catholicism, Taoism, and Buddhism (the religions I am most familiar with) have enriched my life and continue to do so. Atheism offers a healthy skepticism, but I fear for its future, as it does very poorly by itself.

[Dr T]

Smith's Atheism:The Case Against God starts (as most atheist's do) that a lack of belief needs no defense. When people say, "There is no God" IMO seem to have a faith about this belief. Often, they hold this belief as much as the belief that there is a God. Why would you say that atheism is not held religiously, Tsuzuki.

[sgallan]

There is more to religion than God(s), and I can prove that the ideas found in Mormonism, Catholicism, Taoism, and Buddhism (the religions I am most familiar with) have enriched my life and continue to do so. Atheism offers a healthy skepticism, but I fear for its future, as it does very poorly by itself.

And I can prove that my life, with it's inherent values that have nothing to do with any specific religion can - at the very least - hold up to the majority of people. So what's the difference? I am not claiming I am better than you. Yet you seem to be claiming you are better than me. I find that odd.

"There is no God" IMO seem to have a faith about this belief. Often, they hold this belief as much as the belief that there is a God.

Do you believe in all the various religious tenets? Or all of the various incanations of God? If you do not, then you are every bit the athiest as I am, you just believe in one fewer gods. Yet because of this you seem to think you are superior to the athiest. That also astonishes me.

[Tsuzuki]

Smith's Atheism:The Case Against God starts (as most atheist's do) that a lack of belief needs no defense. When people say, "There is no God" IMO seem to have a faith about this belief. Often, they hold this belief as much as the belief that there is a God. Why would you say that atheism is not held religiously, Tsuzuki.

I don't deny that atheism is held religiously. What I am saying is that it shouldn't be that way, and it's not healthy.

[Dr T]

Oh, ok Tsuzuki. Thank you for clarifying. :)

[Tsuzuki]

There is more to religion than God(s), and I can prove that the ideas found in Mormonism, Catholicism, Taoism, and Buddhism (the religions I am most familiar with) have enriched my life and continue to do so. Atheism offers a healthy skepticism, but I fear for its future, as it does very poorly by itself.

And I can prove that my life, with it's inherent values that have nothing to do with any specific religion can - at the very least - hold up to the majority of people. So what's the difference? I am not claiming I am better than you. Yet you seem to be claiming you are better than me. I find that odd.

I doubt that anyone is a complete atheist, if atheism is described as the negation of religion. As I said, there's more to religion than God. There are no doubt a number of things that you have faith in. One thing you seem to have faith in is atheism. I share some of that faith, but not as much as you.

Do you believe in all the various religious tenets? Or all of the various incanations of God?

I do, actually.

[sgallan]

I do, actually.

Ghosts, Sasquatch, witches, etc.... as well?

There are no doubt a number of things that you have faith in.

My faith is of the secular variety. I have a kind of faith in the kids I coach. But none of it is supernatural. I may think a certain kid can beat another certain kid...... even though he/she hasn't done so yet. But if the kid is in his first year in the sport my faith is realistic.... he/she is not likely to beat the reigning State Champion anymore than I can beat the reigning World Champion.

As far as 'everything' being 'fatih' based..... I guess within your belief paadigm this is true. But it doesn't fit within my paradigm.

[Tsuzuki]

I do, actually.

Ghosts, Sasquatch, witches, etc.... as well?

Sometimes. If it gives me an advantage to believe it, I believe it.

There are no doubt a number of things that you have faith in.

My faith is of the secular variety. I have a kind of faith in the kids I coach. But none of it is supernatural. I may think a certain kid can beat another certain kid...... even though he/she hasn't done so yet. But if the kid is in his first year in the sport my faith is realistic.... he/she is not likely to beat the reigning State Champion anymore than I can beat the reigning World Champion.

What is the difference between secular and religious faith?

As far as 'everything' being 'fatih' based..... I guess within your belief paadigm this is true. But it doesn't fit within my paradigm.

It is just as wrong to base your beliefs on faith as it is to deny faith. One's beliefs should be based on reason, and sustained by faith, keeping into account that not everything is known, and having faith that there is more to be understood. As far as the supernatural is concerned, if it is not a hoax, it is simply a natural phenomenon whose conditions or laws are not fully understood. Even if God does exist, He is not supernatural.

And paradigms were meant to be shattered and dissected.

[Serg]

That last phrase of yours Tsuzuki, remainded me of a debate, with Kai Nielsen and J.P. Moreland(concerning if God existed), when one of them said such a thing(or one of the commentors).

LOL

[sgallan]

What is the difference between secular and religious faith?

The difference between what I have seen and had hands on experience with, and that which is unseen.

PS - If this is going to be one of those pholisophical parsing type discussions I think I'll bail. They never seem to get anywhere, and are so circular I get dizzy.....

[Tsuzuki]

What is the difference between secular and religious faith?

The difference between what I have seen and had hands on experience with, and that which is unseen.

Prayer, meditation, gnosis, and charity, among others, are all things that can be directly experienced. Would this make them secular or religious?

PS - If this is going to be one of those pholisophical parsing type discussions I think I'll bail. They never seem to get anywhere, and are so circular I get dizzy.....

This is an attempt to put everyone on the same page, so that the real discussion can begin, instead of having everyone talk past each other.

[Princess3dward]

Let me see if I understand. It is okay for religious people to attempt to convert others to what they believe, but it isn't okay if the roles are reversed? Is this what I am hearing as being suggested?

How do they figure that they have any right in attempting to impose on anyone's religious beliefs?

Works for me. I am guessing - in order to be consistant - that you are okay with me raising a secularist and more than likely a future non-believer, right?

There is a difference between making it "too embarassing to believe in God" and spreading a belief in God as a belief.

The way you worded your post seemed not only insulting, but ignorant.

[sgallan]

This is an attempt to put everyone on the same page, so that the real discussion can begin, instead of having everyone talk past each other.

Honestly, it doesn't appear anybody here can accurately conceptualize a non-believer such as myself. Everybody wants to somehow put me into their belief paradigm instead of accepting mine for what it is.

The way you worded your post seemed not only insulting, but ignorant.

If believing in something unprovable and invisible is ignorant then I am guilty as charged. If being a believer were to give my daughter the same testy attitude as yours (and she is only five years younger than you), then I feel very comfortable in the way I have chosen to educate her.

[LionHeart]

The argument between a religionist and an atheist is really not a level playing field. For example: we religionists not only believe in God, but for many of us, God is a very improtant part of our lives. To try to take Him away from us would be like trying to take away our father. To insult Him, is held as one of worst atrocities one can commit. So when these people launch a crusade to prove God does not exist, we take it as an insult to the divine creator. We also hate to see other people get led away from their belief in God because of the resulting afterlife we believe in. However, to simply tell an atheist that God does exist, does not have the same effect because they have no belief in any significant deity, therefore, no insult is given.

L.H.