Other religions

[Heber13]

Nice thoughts, Flavius.

When looking at D&C 137, I think you have to consider JS also saw his mom and dad there...so the vision must have been a vision of what was to come, not actually seeing Alvin already exalted, since his mom and dad were still living when he saw them in the vision.

But the nice part we can take from the vision is that even those souls not receiving the ordinances in this life can be exalted to the highest degree of the CK, because God looks upon the heart and provides a way for the pure in heart to be with him.

That is a comforting doctrine.

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Flavius. I hope you are doing well. :)

I just wanted to say that I read your post and I appreciate your perspective.

Respectfully,

Finrock

[Mute]

I'm not looking for an argument. When I quoted you, I bolded the parts that confused me, because they seem to be contradictory. Do you think that LDS doctrine proclaims that "those who are not part of [the LDS] faith are more or less screwed"?

Screwed in the sense that the belief is one has to be baptized in the lds faith in order to gain celestial glory. While the punishment of not reaching that kingdom is not as severe as other faith's beliefs on what will happen to non believers, it still isn't what I'd call comforting. If the lds faith turns out to be right, no I won't be physically tortured forever as that of many other Christian beliefs. However, I hope it wouldn't be as that described by what those headed for the telestial will endure.

Mosiah 3:27

27 And their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever. Thus hath the Lord commanded me. Amen.

If we look at D&C 19 we see that not all punishment is considered permanent.

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, bailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

I don't know what part of this punishment would be permanent but one thing that would be permanent is your place in that spot. Would someone still suffer regret, mental grief and anguish for eternity simply for not choosing correctly? Would someone suffer this in the terrestrial kingdom? I don't know but if we look at D&C 76 we get a better picture of whose going there.

D&C 76

71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.

72 Behold, these are they who died without law;

73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.

79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

80 And now this is the end of the vision which we saw of the terrestrial, that the Lord commanded us to write while we were yet in the Spirit.

I'm a USU (Utah State University) student. At USU, a person needs a USU card to take classes. This gives you access to books and the ability to sign up for classes. This in no way guarantees you an A just as being lds doesn't guarantee you Celestial glory but it makes it possible for you to obtain one. However, if you do not have that USU card you can't even take the classes. In the lds faith, I see it as you can still take classes but the highest you can score is a C. In other words, the highest you can go is the t terrestrial kingdom if you're not a member. I don't personally think I'd go to the telestial kingdom but the most I'd have to hope for is a terrestrial glory if the lds faith is true.

Every religion believes they hold the one truth allowing those who feel as they do the possibility to go to Heaven. Sure we could just join them all and hope we make it into the right one, if any are right at all, and we might have a chance at it but the question was why do I feel screwed. I hope I answered that for you.

[Vort]

Screwed in the sense that the belief is one has to be baptized in the lds faith in order to gain celestial glory...In the lds faith, I see it as you can still take classes but the highest you can score is a C. In other words, the highest you can go is the t terrestrial kingdom if you're not a member. I don't personally think I'd go to the telestial kingdom but the most I'd have to hope for is a terrestrial glory if the lds faith is true.

So then, the answer is: No, you do not understand the LDS concept of salvation.

To be brief: All men and women will be given a fair and adequate chance to hear, recognize, and embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ, in this life or the next. Those who do so will be exalted. Those who do not wish to embrace the gospel after a fair and adequate hearing will go on to whatever glory they can endure.

Given my (admittedly simplistic but essentially correct) explanation of LDS doctrine, can you point out the parts that in any way suggests that "those who are not part of [the LDS] faith are more or less screwed"?

[Mute]

So then, the answer is: No, you do not understand the LDS concept of salvation.

To be brief: All men and women will be given a fair and adequate chance to hear, recognize, and embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ, in this life or the next. Those who do so will be exalted. Those who do not wish to embrace the gospel after a fair and adequate hearing will go on to whatever glory they can endure.

Given my (admittedly simplistic but essentially correct) explanation of LDS doctrine, can you point out the parts that in any way suggests that "those who are not part of [the LDS] faith are more or less screwed"?

How did I know you were going to say that? I don't think you read my post very well. Regardless, I chose to hope there was a slim chance you weren't just looking for an argument but unfortunately I was wrong. It's not the first time you've demonstrated you're only looking to correct people and claim your way is the right way and the only way. I'm not going to waste my time with you anymore and will simply skip past your comments as I have done in the past.

[Leah]

How did I know you were going to say that? I don't think you read my post very well. Regardless, I chose to hope there was a slim chance you weren't just looking for an argument but unfortunately I was wrong. It's not the first time you've demonstrated you're only looking to correct people and claim your way is the right way and the only way. I'm not going to waste my time with you anymore and will simply skip past your comments as I have done in the past.

I see no evidence that Vort was looking for an argument. He was simply explaining to you the LDS concept of salvation. The fact that you r don't grasp the concept does not make it an 'argument'.

[Guest]

How did I know you were going to say that? I don't think you read my post very well. Regardless, I chose to hope there was a slim chance you weren't just looking for an argument but unfortunately I was wrong. It's not the first time you've demonstrated you're only looking to correct people and claim your way is the right way and the only way. I'm not going to waste my time with you anymore and will simply skip past your comments as I have done in the past.

Mute, Vort is correct. His response was perfectly aligned to what your post is saying. And your post has a misunderstanding of LDS doctrine that he is trying to point out. I'm going to attempt to say it in a different manner to see if you get a glimmer from a different perspective of what he's trying to say.

Okay. First off - we are judged according to our knowledge. So, the only way you can be "punished" is if you have a testimony of the requirements for exaltation and you didn't act on it. So, it's not enough that you heard about it or you used to be LDS or even that you're active LDS. You have to gain a testimony - a complete understanding of it - and then choose not to follow it or fail to follow it. So that, our "mission" here on earth is to gain that testimony. Now, of course, there are people who do not get that testimony while on earth. For them, they are given the chance to receive that knowledge after death. Everyone of us will get our chance to receive that knowledge - nobody is exempt. Even the child with cerebral palsy or the Igorots living in the mountains that has never even seen civilization let alone heard the name Jesus Christ.

Okay, so what happens when you gain the testimony and you fail to follow it - or you choose not to follow it - but you lived a pretty good life? Sure, you may not make it to the Celestial Kingdom but that's not a "punishment". You are not going to be happy in the Celestial Kingdom. It will be more to your benefit to go to a lesser glory and progress from there. Remember, we believe in eternal progression. We don't believe that you die, get resurrected, and stay stagnant playing harps on clouds forever. You continue to progress eternally. So that, those in a higher glory progress on a different manner than the lesser glories.

I guess you can use School as an analogy. In elementary school, you got a gifted class and a regular class. Those smart people are not going to be happy in the regular class because they've progressed higher than those kids. So, they get put in gifted class together with all the other gifted kids and they progress at a faster pace. Now, the regular class might aim for gifted because they all want to be smart too but, if you put a kid who is not qualified for gifted in a gifted class, he's going to be miserable and he's going to fail - because he can't keep up with the pace. Having him in regular class is better for him. In the regular class, he has a lesser chance of failure and he has a higher chance of progressing to the next grade even if it takes him a much longer process to get there. So, sure, if you want to see it as a punishment for not being smart enough that you didn't qualify for gifted, you may. I see it from a different perspective. I see it as "This is what I'm capable of, so this is where I belong".

Hope this helps.

[Guest]

<deleting a double post. not sure how it got here.>

Edited July 27, 2012 by anatess

[Mute]

You have both missed my point. I'm not talking about whether a person gets a fair and equal chance to join or understand the lds faith. I'm talking about people who never join the faith, for what ever their reason that may be, will not EVER go to the Celestial kingdom. Plain and simple.

Again, I didn't want to argue these things and I'm not going to any further. Vort asked my opinion and I gave it to him. That is all. I'm done with this topic.

[Heber13]

"This is what I'm capable of, so this is where I belong".

I like some of those thoughts, anatess. But the problem I would have is that sounds very Calvanistic. If God made some children only capable of Terrestial Kingdom, then that sounds like they don't have a choice to go to the CK.

Back several pages ago, posts were firmly stating it is the person's heart AND saving ordinances that determine exaltation.

In your school analogy, even if a student in school is smart enough, tried hard enough, but did not have the diploma/certificate or membership in the right after school club...they couldn't progress to the next grade, and would be told they should be happy and be more comfortable where they are without progressing. That is more the analogy some are making with exaltation.

That doesn't feel right.

A counselor in the bishopric told me this joke, maybe it is appropriate for this thread...

A bus loaded with tourists suffered a tragic accident and all on the bus were instantly killed.

They all go up to heaven as a group and St. Peter greets them at the gate.

"Welcome to heaven all of you. Let me show you around."

St. Peter takes the group around heaven and they first pass a beautiful synagogue full of people dancing and singing in Hebrew.

One tourist asks what that is all about...St.Peter says, "Oh those are our Jewish residents."

The group then passes another building with lots of Gregorian chants and latin speaking, and so St.Peter tells the group, "Here you find a Catholic group of citizens of heaven."

They go on passing numerous different buildings with different groups of people, all happy and doing their thing.

Then, St.Peter stops the group...gathers them close by, and says, "Shhhh....Please, please, please...we must now be silent and tiptoe until I instruct you further."

So the group quietly proceeds, as they pass a nice church building with singing and sounds of sermons and happy people doing their thing.

When they pass, St. Peter says, "OK, we can move ahead now, silence is not needed any longer."

One tourist stops St. Peter, "Wait, what was that all about?"

St. Peter responds, "Oh that. Well, that last church was the mormon church...we don't want to burst their bubble... they think this is the Celestial Kingdom and they are the only ones up here."

[Dove]

There is another option which has been expressed and seemingly ignored which is to do good things, like Jesus did, with an eye single to the glory of God. This is not the same as doing good things with the idea of a reward or with the idea of fear, it is to do good things with the idea of love for our gracious Father in Heaven.

Satan wants to shorten our perspective to things that are experienced here. By focusing so much on the now then it takes away purpose, at least eternal purpose. When one believes there is no purpose to this life then it is impossible to understand God because He is driven by purpose.

This is in part why the word "good" really has to be defined and not used in such broad terms when talking about moral good. There are those that take the view, "eat and drink for tomorrow we shall die" and their definition of "good" is anything that brings them immediate pleasure.

This is a naturalism philosophy or maybe in religious terms we would liken that to listening to carnal drives. To not pay attention to the spiritual or long term, after-this-life consequences to our actions is carnality. We know, in our doctrine that being carnal or wicked never was happiness. We should try not to be so inclusive that we include the vices of Satan as being "good". Things that bring pleasure or that makes a person "feel good" by following the promptings of our natural body are not necessarily good in God's eyes. To do what comes natural without any effort to change the rolling tides of this world will lead to giving into that if I feel it is right (carnal influence) then it is good, the natural man is an enemy to God. "Good" in the eyes of the God would be more exactly defined as obedience to the commandments, in my opinion. If good is defined that way then sure, "there is intrinsic joy to be found in just doing "good" for goodness' sake (it will make us happier)".

Prayer is definitely helpful but I think it also has to start with some belief that there is something more important than this life and there is a purpose to this life, there has to be some focus on the little light of Christ shining through the darkness of carnal passions.

Hello, Seminary Snoozer;

I appreciate you responding to my comment and also for your input. I read what you wrote a couple of times to be sure I understood what you were saying. This so I could respond appropriately and on point. :)

First, let me reassure you that when I used the terms "doing good for goodness' sake," I meant it in a Godly way and not a carnal or lustful way. I like your points about having an eternal perspective vs. immediate gratification. I certainly struggle with bridling my lusts (especially with smoking) and wanting to "feel good" now~Something our fast food culture/society certainly teaches us.

As far as doing things out of "love for our gracious Father in Heaven," while this can be an impetus (and probably ideally done this way) for seeking to do good works, I personally struggle with it. There have been several times I have felt like someone's service project....That they were "serving me" out of a hidden agenda of doing their "duty" and what they thought they should/ought/better do to be "good," perhaps even to serve God. I always felt a lack of sincerity in this (they generally dropped me like a hot potatoe once they were done with their "project") and rather demeaned. Although I thought I had found a friend, they certainly had a different take, or perspective about it.

Granted, the greatest commandment of all is to "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." But, a close second to this commandment is to "love thy neighbour as thyself."

Because I struggle with thinking of the eternal perspective of things, I choose to focus instead on viewing my eternity, be it of happiness and joy, or misery and suffering, as being experienced in the moment. Meaning, there is so much to experience in the here and now, including finding joy in simply "loving my neighbour" because they are an extension of our Heavenly Father, or are His children. Hence, simply because it is joyous and worthwhile to do so. I truly believe that my heaven (or hell) is right here, right now in how I'm experiencing and perceiving events in my life. For me, the celestial kingdom isn't so much a place as it is a state of mind. We are so blessed to have the gift of the Holy Ghost to guide us, comfort us, sanctify us, etc., and to witness to us of God's love for us. That can be felt wherever we are, right now, if we are willing to do those things (humility, obedience, being as a child) necessary to feel His Spirit.

Lastly, life here is soo hard. I think of the verse in Alma, 37:17, which says; "for I do know that whosoever shall put their trust in God shall be supported in their trials, and their troubles, and their afflictions, and shall be lifted up at the last day." From this I believe that, it's not if life gets painful, hard and difficult, it's when. Also, that it's not about what's going on outside of us, but what is within us, that's so important. I am so grateful for the atonement, which lends a beauty to the opposition in life. There is such a beauty in being founded on "the rock of our Redeemer," (Helaman 5:12) through our trials and tribulations. When I feel the strength of the Spirit, a sweet calm comes over me, and I know all is well. We're only going to be here once in all of eternity. I want to live life to the fullest I can with the good, the bad, and the ugly!

Forgive me. I think the difference in my perspective results from having diabetes and feeling the fragility of life so deeply as a result...The issues of life and death really are right in the middle of my eyesight because of this...Good news. Today I found out from my doctor's office that it is highly probable that my pancreas is still producing insulin. They will be doing a blood test on me to see how much it is producing. If enough is being produced, I may be able to get off insulin altogether with diet and, especially, exercise. I am so excited and elated about this. It gives me a great deal of hope. This after the fact that a relative who was diagnosed with diabetes at the same age I was died at age 48 (I'm 44). This was weighing heavily on my mind. I feel God is giving me a second chance to become healthy once again before I pass...Such mercy and grace!

I do give a nod to those who believe differently (Mute and my brother) yet still believe in moral and ethical choices in life. That is to be recognized and be grateful for, to me.

Dove

[Vort]

You have both missed my point. I'm not talking about whether a person gets a fair and equal chance to join or understand the lds faith. I'm talking about people who never join the faith, for what ever their reason that may be, will not EVER go to the Celestial kingdom. Plain and simple.

So, bottom line: If God offers you a gift and you freely decline the gift, then it's unfair that you don't get the gift.

Pretty much everyone here, and most people everywhere, will disagree with this extreme form of entitlement mentality.

[Vort]

A counselor in the bishopric told me this joke, maybe it is appropriate for this thread...

I have heard this joke since the 1970s and suspect it's been around much longer. I do not understand why people think it such a knee-slapper.

[norah63]

That was a good one Herber. I have learned much from all the posts. Jesus says he knows His own, that is a comfort to me. Competing over who has the authority, it always stops at the Head.

However others may view us is each ones choice, because everyone must work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

In one post you spoke of how superior it sounded when presenting one religion as tops. That is how I felt many times in the RLDS church. How could you bring a person in to visit, when it sounded like they were not quite smart enough to get it? Jesus never gives that , however man can be so imperfect as to slip a little of that in a sermon from time to time.

May we all learn to be better fishers of men. I need it more than most I suppose.

[Seminarysnoozer]

As far as doing things out of "love for our gracious Father in Heaven," while this can be an impetus (and probably ideally done this way) for seeking to do good works, I personally struggle with it. There have been several times I have felt like someone's service project....That they were "serving me" out of a hidden agenda of doing their "duty" and what they thought they should/ought/better do to be "good," perhaps even to serve God. I always felt a lack of sincerity in this (they generally dropped me like a hot potatoe once they were done with their "project") and rather demeaned. Although I thought I had found a friend, they certainly had a different take, or perspective about it.

Thanks for your response. I think we agree on everything in your post, I am not seeing where there is any difference at all.

In this paragraph you seem to be saying that some people don't have the right purpose in mind when doing good deeds. I think that is exactly what I was saying was important. We do not differ in that respect at all. I said I think people should be doing "good" for the right reasons, to assist God in bringing about the immortality and eternal life of man. Not out of fear or desire for reward but for the love of all things Godly, all things praiseworthy and of good report as Paul's admonition suggests we do.

The fact that some people don't have the right perspective, I believe, was my point even if they "do" good. Understanding why we do the things we do is important. I think that is what is meant by keeping our eye single to the glory of God as that is His purpose and work. That is the "why" behind doing the things we do. We are ultimately judged by not only our actions but the corresponding desires of our heart, the "why" behind what we do.

I like the way President Uchtdorf puts it; "... forget not the “why” of the gospel. In our diligent efforts to fulfill all of the duties and obligations we take on as members of the Church, we sometimes see the gospel as a long list of tasks that we must add to our already impossibly long to-do list, as a block of time that we must somehow fit into our busy schedules. We focus on what the Lord wants us to do and how we might do it, but we sometimes forget why.

While understanding the “what” and the “how” of the gospel is necessary, the eternal fire and majesty of the gospel springs from the “why.” When we understand why our Heavenly Father has given us this pattern for living, when we remember why we committed to making it a foundational part of our lives, the gospel ceases to become a burden and, instead, becomes a joy and a delight. It becomes precious and sweet.

The “what” and “how” of obedience mark the way and keep us on the right path. The “why” of obedience sanctifies our actions, transforming the mundane into the majestic. It magnifies our small acts of obedience into holy acts of consecration."

[Heber13]

I like the way President Uchtdorf puts it; "... forget not the “why” of the gospel. In our diligent efforts to fulfill all of the duties and obligations we take on as members of the Church, we sometimes see the gospel as a long list of tasks that we must add to our already impossibly long to-do list, as a block of time that we must somehow fit into our busy schedules. We focus on what the Lord wants us to do and how we might do it, but we sometimes forget why.

I love Pres Uchtdorf's messages!! Thanks for sharing.

[Dove]

The fact that some people don't have the right perspective, I believe, was my point even if they "do" good. Understanding why we do the things we do is important. I think that is what is meant by keeping our eye single to the glory of God as that is His purpose and work. That is the "why" behind doing the things we do. We are ultimately judged by not only our actions but the corresponding desires of our heart, the "why" behind what we do.

"

Seminary Snoozer;

You have an interesting perspective...I don't often think of "serving" God in the good I try to do. This is a weakness of mine. I believe I struggle with it more due to the examples of people around me who have claimed they are serving Him and yet have had such a poor attitude of resentment and of being passive-aggressive. I so seldom find the soul who truly loves with sincere intent and purity of heart. Though, as I think about this, a few faces come to mind of people I truly felt befriended by...

This leads me to rethink how I perceive God and how I approach Him. I think your perspective is beautiful, if done in sincerity and truly wanting to serve Him. As I write this, I realize that I haven't been giving Him the credit for all things good and right. Wow, what a thought for me! As I just said, so often through my life I have often doubted the sincerity of those who proclaim His name and yet have acted so contrary to His teachings. I fear I've let that influence how I view doing good works and even how I view Him.

Thanks again.

Dove

[Blackmarch]

Hello all.

It seems to me that we regularly recognize the good in other religions. Any good that brings people closer to God has truth in it, but we claim as Mormons more revealed truth, or greater collection of truth. The quotes are often about truth is found in many sources, but bring all that to the Mormon church and we will add unto it.

This is a comforting response to those who believe the Church is the "one true" church. It can be a bit offensive to others, obviously.

But I really want to hear from this group why we would think God would work and offer salvation for such a small group of His children? Temple work for the dead is a nice thought, but it doesn't make sense to me when this mortal life is so important in our test.

If I think this church is one way to God, but not the only way, am I on dangerous ground?

I have so many friends outside the church that are such wonderful good people, I'm not sure they NEED to convert. They are pretty dang good people now.

What do you all think about other religions being just as good as the Mormon church, as long as they help people develop Christ-like qualities?

they'll get exactly what they think they want. for the most part;

they will be Christ's angel servants in heaven. At least the ones that are honest and etc..

[Heber13]

they'll get exactly what they think they want. for the most part;

they will be Christ's angel servants in heaven. At least the ones that are honest and etc..

I would think there would be a couple scenarios, assuming when you say "they'll get what they want" you mean people of other religions...

1) They will be presented the opportunity to learn more truth, and if they don't want more ("A Bible, A Bible, we have a bible and need no more"), then they will be limited and serve as angels, which is what they want their heaven to be;

2) They will be presented the opportunity to learn more truth and fully accept it, and because their hearts are pure and are learning more, they will be welcomed to Exaltation.

This seems consistent to me with gospel doctrine.

So my point is that many will be in other religions, and could fall into scenario#2 and be exalted, not just mormons. Those other paths can eventually lead back home for them, and God's plan allows for that.

Others might clarify what I'm saying and say that eventually they are accepting truths and essentially becoming LDS in the afterlife, which is why we do work for the dead.

And we would be saying the same thing...people of other religions will get a fair chance to accept all truth and can choose to accept it or not, and can be exalted or not.

We do not need to think that members of other religions will automatically be barred from the CK. Because our doctrine teaches that keeping the 2nd estate goes through spirit world times until the Judgement Day, which is beyond this life.

[Vort]

So my point is that many will be in other religions, and could fall into scenario#2 and be exalted, not just mormons. Those other paths can eventually lead back home for them, and God's plan allows for that.

The falsehood of your teachings is not in the idea that honest seekers of truth, no matter their earthly religion, can accept the gospel and gain exaltation, even if they hear and accept it in the afterlife. That is a foundational tenet of our religion. I have heard no one here (or anywhere else) contest it.

The falsehood of your teachings is when you proclaim that all religions are essentially equal, that it really does not matter which religion you follow. If followed to its reasonable and non-extreme conclusion, this heretical teaching says that the LDS Church itself is superfluous, and that membership in the Lord's Church confers no advantage of any sort, spiritual or otherwise, to a person. Obviously, this is apostasy in its most blatant form.

[Heber13]

Its just a subtle difference from how I feel about it and how you put it into words, Vort. To me, it is an important difference, though, in how we view and treat others.

I know you've been frustrated by the exchanges, so I'll be sensitive, but I'm saying there is a scenario #2 (above) that does fit into our gospel doctrine. That does not equate to your interpretation that "membership in the Lord's Church confers no advantage of any sort".

My idea might be on the fringe, but it is not blatant apostasy if understood in the right light.

[norah63]

"They will get exactly what they think they want, for the most part" This left me with a little bit of wondering. Can't figure out just what that means. Will someone who has given their heart and life to the Lord Jesus and has done all they know to do, be rewarded with what they 'think' they want?

Must be missing something here.

[Heber13]

Norah, I think it goes just as well for Mormons. We will get our CK, if that is what we want. And yet, could there be more??? Do we believe all is revealed to us now...or do we believe in continuous revelation, and greater things yet to learn as we work to become more like Christ in love and devotion?

What is damning to our souls is closing the door to progressing in thought and character, and thinking we know all things now with certainty, and then judge others through that limited lens.

1 Cor 2:9-10

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

[Traveler]

"They will get exactly what they think they want, for the most part" This left me with a little bit of wondering. Can't figure out just what that means. Will someone who has given their heart and life to the Lord Jesus and has done all they know to do, be rewarded with what they 'think' they want?

Must be missing something here.

I believe that there is both an advantage and disadvantage in having citizenship into G-d kingdom. The advantages are all the blessings of the covenants – the disadvantage is all the lost blessings lost from not keeping covenants. The misunderstandings concerning other religions on this thread centers around covenants. No one will ever receive eternal blessings of covenant obedience unless they are obedient to the covenants. This needs to be clearly understood – to obtain an eternal blessing from G-d requires obedience to his covenants. The only access to the covenants of G-d is through his appointed servants functioning within their appointments within G-d’s kingdom if it be in this life – the spirit world or in the resurrection. No one can receive a blessing from G-d unless they are obedient to the principles that govern that blessing.

Living according to covenant is not doctrinal belief or doctrinal understanding as much as it is compassion and love for our fellow men – this is in essence the root of the great apostasy. The great apostasy is when individuals of the covenant believe that they have an advantage over others because of doctrine and not because of of their greater love and compassion for others because of the doctrines. The truth is – despite the atonement and sacrifice of Christ if someone has greater love and compassion for others without the doctrines of Christ than we do through the doctrines of Christ– we will not receive any better reward – but rather, if anything, we will lose blessings they will not because of our disobedience to our covenant to have compassion and love for others.

Therefore no rah63 we lie (even to ourselves) if we think we give our heart to Jesus and then refuse to love our fellow men more than those without the benefit of the doctrine of Christ. This principle was clearly taught by Jesus in the parable of the Good Samaritan. In the days of Jesus there was no religion on earth thought to have corrupted the doctrines of G-d greater than the Samaritan religion. In contrast Jesus compares the Samaritan or member of a false religion to the Levite and Priest who – though members of the true religion were not as loving and compassionate as the Samaritan that believed in a so-called false religion.

The Traveler

Edited August 15, 2012 by Traveler

[Heber13]

The truth is – despite the atonement and sacrifice of Christ if someone has greater love and compassion for others without the doctrines of Christ than we do through the doctrines of Christ– we will not receive any better reward – but rather, if anything, we will lose blessings they will not because of our disobedience to our covenant to have compassion and love for others.

Well said! The Good Samaritan is a great example of what we should go and do likewise. We do not view the Good Samaritan as a story of teaching that he was good, but only Terrestrial Good.

Good is good. We should seek after these things.