Ex-Mormon gives his thoughts on Mormonism

[Jamie123]

I just wanted to emphasize this point. I'm thinking Jamie isn't the only one out there who was taught and believes that "everyone does it". Apparently, that's not as true as one might think.

I didn't think "everyone does it" was all that hot of a justification for questionable behavior in the first place. But since the justification isn't even true, it's even less hot.

Hmmmm....maybe Mr. Kirn and I are more alone than we think. Since everyone else had such a blameless childhood, us ex-obnoxious-teenagers need to stick together.

"We few....we happy few...."

[Jamie123]

It has nothing to do with official guidelines and verbiage. It's part of an annual interview, it'd be pointless to ask you year after year, "Did you ever at any point in the history of your existence masturbate?" It's just a waste of everyone's time to go, "Yes... well yeah, like I told you the last three years, once when I was thirteen... No, I haven't since then...".

The fact that something seems pointless or unreasonable is hardly a good reason for assuming that it isn't true. The world is full of pointless and unreasonable things. However, if you as an experienced LDS member can assure me that that is how these questions are interpreted then I thank you for setting me straight :)

[Guest]

Hmmmm....maybe Mr. Kirn and I are more alone than we think. Since everyone else had such a blameless childhood, us ex-obnoxious-teenagers need to stick together.

"We few....we happy few...."

Blameless? You do know there are a lot more things to be sinful about than just masturbation right?

[NeuroTypical]

Hmmmm....maybe Mr. Kirn and I are more alone than we think. Since everyone else had such a blameless childhood, us ex-obnoxious-teenagers need to stick together.

A few things to keep in mind:

* I don't think anyone is claiming to have 'a blameless childhood'. In fact, I explicitly stated "I had plenty of things to confess of in my youth, but that wasn't one of them." Heck, for all I know, I'm still carrying more obnoxiousness from my teen years than you are.

* I was only responding to your belief that anyone who hasn't is such a rarity they should be stuffed and put on display. I'm not claiming you and Mr. Kirn are the only ones who have done it. Surely, between the two extremes "no one" and "everyone", we can find a good common ground?

[Dravin]

The fact that something seems pointless or unreasonable is hardly a good reason for assuming that it isn't true. The world is full of pointless and unreasonable things. However, if you as an experienced LDS member can assure me that that is how these questions are interpreted then I thank you for setting me straight :)

I can't answer how every single person in the Church might respond to the question, I can assure you that the point of an interview with the Bishop isn't to grill you on past sins that you've already repented of. The only questions I know of in the Church that aren't about the present is the Baptismal interview questions where they ask if you've ever had an abortion or participated in a homosexual relationship, and the more general question about if there is anything in our past that should have been resolved with proper priesthood authority but haven't. The idea that Bishops are running around trying to get people to confess to past properly repented of sin is rather laughable.

We aren't asked, "Have you ever drank a beer?" We're asked if we keep the Word of Wisdom. We aren't asked, "Have you ever looked at pornography?" We're asked if we're keeping the law of chastity or more specifically if we look at porn. We're not asked, "Have you ever at any point in your life taken something that doesn't belong to you no matter how long ago, even if you've repented and even previously told me about it?" We're asked if we steal or are honest. And yes, sometimes we're asked if there is something we should have talked to our Bishop about but haven't, but that is not , "Have you ever, regardless of if you've repented and talked with priesthood authority previously, committed a sin that needed resolution with priesthood authority."

For the record, I was claiming to be able to answer no to my parsing of the question, not yours. I realize you may have taken me to be claiming I could and I don't want to misrepresent myself.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Dravin

[Jamie123]

I was only responding to your belief that anyone who hasn't is such a rarity they should be stuffed and put on display.

LOL - I think you understand the concept of hyperbole! But OK - maybe the imagery was poorly chosen.

I'm not claiming you and Mr. Kirn are the only ones who have done it. Surely, between the two extremes "no one" and "everyone", we can find a good common ground?

OK - my bad. Perhaps my experiences are atypical as far as this forum goes: I didn't know any LDS kids when I was at school. In fact, I don't think I knew anyone whose family were any kind of regular churchgoers (my family stopped attending when I was about 8 and I never returned properly until I was in college) except for one Catholic boy, who would become strangely diffident whenever certain topics of conversation arose. Though an oddity amongst my circle of friends, maybe he was more average than we suspected. Edited July 19, 2012 by Jamie123
TMI. Some things are better left in the past.

[Vort]

In Jamie's defense, I'm stunned at some of the answers here. Maybe I'm painting with too broad a brush, but I'd be shocked if there is one man in a hundred who has never masturbated at any point in his life. Equipment is too external, hands too conveniently located, and stimulation too common for most young boys to avoid at some point. And it certainly is a self-reinforcing behavior...

[dahlia]

Wait a minute. I know I'm middle-aged and tend to forget things 2 minutes after they're told to me, but does the bishop really ask if I've committed a murder? If I've masturbated? Wha? I vaguely recall being asked about whether I was keeping my covenant of chastity, to which I replied, 'I wish I wasn't, but I am.' He seemed to understand the humor in that.

But seriously, was I asked about committing murders and I just don't remember?

[beefche]

dahlia, I've never been asked that and it is not part of the standard baptism or temple recommend interviews. I think this ex-Mormon has either taken literary license or just made things up.

[NightSG]

When I had my baptismal interview, the interviewer had just gotten back from a long drive to the city, so it was a bit off-script and rushed. I have to admit that when he asked about murder, homosexual relationships, transgender operations and something else in one breath, I fought the urge to answer "never at the same time."

[JohnnyRudick]

I liked this article a great deal better than I thought I would. Needless to say, I disagree with a whole lot of what the guy says, but he writes from the heart and seems to get some important things right. On the whole, a rather touching article.

Walter Kirn: Confessions Of An Ex-Mormon | The New Republic

Excuse me as i struggle to get my feelings put out so that I can be under stood.

I haven't read the rest of the comments yet but reading over this piece I get the impression of a professionally written "hit" piece.

Are we sure this guy is what he seems to be pretending to be?

I hear in the undertone sarcasm carefully woven into his story an attack - a sleek and calculated attack against the church to me seems to be his agenda.

Maybe I will try to go back and finish the article.

I am now reading about the little strumpet friend of his youth, and her 19 year old marijuana smoking brother.

Seems like he is trying to make the Church a lie by trying to build a case for a so-called crude reality behind a projected false front.

I do not think he is real.

[JohnnyRudick]

For me, the most cringe-worthy parts were those where he described young LDS men and women fornicating, smoking pot, and otherwise acting in a most unSaintly manner. Having seen examples of exactly that behavior, I cannot deny that it happens. I only wish he had given equal time to the many young men and women in the Church who don't fornicate or smoke pot -- who actually take their covenants seriously and strive to live by them.

I was also entertained and a bit chagrined at his short description of a "Flight to Eternity", one of my Church-facing pet peeves.

Seems to me so far in this article that he took the worst and gathered them all together and inserted them into his story.

I hope this gets better.

So far I DO NOT LIKE IT but some of you do so I will keep on reading, and hoping for the best.

[JohnnyRudick]

Well, looks like my intuition seems to be somewhat right.

He is a professional writer and he has (it seems to me) written hit pieces against the church buried in short stories about Mormons.

I still do not like this article.

It is distasteful and does not feel genuine.

Could be i am just paranoid.

[JohnnyRudick]

OK, I finished the article.

It ended much better then I supposed it was going to.

Still feels fictional but a good story but i do not believe so much negativism in one boys life - and the impossible legends mixed with truth that he seemed to be aware of at crucial times in his life.

Seems contrived.

I guess I am paranoid.

[NeuroTypical]

Well Johnny, I've encountered many, many former mormons. They've told a wide range of stories, but similar themes to this guy. I've heard similar stories firsthand from many believing saints as well. (My buddy lost his virginity at a mutual swimming activity, for example.) And finally, I know a handful of very screwed-up LDS families with similar stories or worse. Surely, he could have made other choices, found and accepted better council. As I said earlier, I find some similarities between my upbringing and his.

I don't see any reason to believe he was lying, or even exagerating.

[JohnnyRudick]

Well Johnny, I've encountered many, many former mormons. They've told a wide range of stories, but similar themes to this guy. I've heard similar stories firsthand from many believing saints as well. (My buddy lost his virginity at a mutual swimming activity, for example.) And finally, I know a handful of very screwed-up LDS families with similar stories or worse. Surely, he could have made other choices, found and accepted better council. As I said earlier, I find some similarities between my upbringing and his.

I don't see any reason to believe he was lying, or even exagerating.

Yeah, I went off with a few LDS kids on a drunk in a pickup truck instead of attending a youth conference when I was young and it was the ground breaker from then on to worse situations.

After that one excursion, all the rest were with non-Mormons though.

Can't blame the people of the Church though. It was all me.

Took me almost three years to get back.

That is a long time when you are a kid.

[Schwesterherz]

If one is a member of a group (party, church,or what also always); one can be disappointed. Not so much of the rules in the groups most however of people. One leaves the group out of disappointed love. And love turns into hate.

The former members of the church who had left the church; hate the church. They hate the church for their own disappointed hopes and wishes. And whoever hates is more ready to spread lies about the object of his or her hate.

Therefore all of us can assume that most, what these people spread about the church, is a lie.

[JohnnyRudick]

If one is a member of a group (party, church,or what also always); one can be disappointed. Not so much of the rules in the groups most however of people. One leaves the group out of disappointed love. And love turns into hate.

The former members of the church who had left the church; hate the church. They hate the church for their own disappointed hopes and wishes. And whoever hates is more ready to spread lies about the object of his or her hate.

Therefore all of us can assume that most, what these people spread about the church, is a lie.

Well,there has been a couple of times I have been away from the Church.

Yet, I have always Loved the Church.

Well, most of you know what I mean.

Can't Love His Church without loving Him can you?

Edited August 16, 2012 by JohnnyRudick

[SteveVH]

For me, the most cringe-worthy parts were those where he described young LDS men and women fornicating, smoking pot, and otherwise acting in a most unSaintly manner. Having seen examples of exactly that behavior, I cannot deny that it happens. I only wish he had given equal time to the many young men and women in the Church who don't fornicate or smoke pot -- who actually take their covenants seriously and strive to live by them.

I was also entertained and a bit chagrined at his short description of a "Flight to Eternity", one of my Church-facing pet peeves.

What is sad is that the worth of any faith tradition is many times unjustly measured by its lowest common denominator; by those who who do not live out the life to which the faith calls them rather than by those who do. I could not agree with you more.