Extinguishing the light of Christ.

[The_Warrior]

Recent events have caused a re-occurring thought process for me. It began long ago when the Columbine school massacre happened, I was in Utah and in the midst of tension my elementary aged self made some jokes that were taken out of context (frankly, they were inappropriate) and led to my being suspended and missing my 'graduation' from Rock Canyon Elementary school to Centennial Middle School.

Since then, though the events never happened to me personally, I feel an awkward connection and a compulsion to evaluate and understand why people do these things; things which I feel I am incapable of doing (I dread even a self-defense act). My most peculiar thought involved Nephi and his task to take the life of Laban.

I have three questions, only the first two have to do with the foregoing Book Of Mormon testaments:

1) Is it plausible that the effects of sleepless nights, vomiting, nightmares etcetera, plagued the teenage youth in his obedience to the Lord? Is this the nature of the beast / was this to be expected as his personal trial?

2) Of all the wars and battles in the Book Of Mormon, what can we find that talks of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder? I know that there is sorrow and fierceness and sometimes even 'righteous fury;' but what about after the dust settles? Even though the fight may be just (ordained of God), is there a personal toll to be paid?

3) This last question is the hardest to put into words; such will be the answer. A witness to the Columbine shooting stated he heard (towards the end of their murdering) one turn to the other and say "I think I am about finished, this is boring" (The other was not in the same state of mind because the reply was 'let's try knifing them'). The shooter in Norway AND the most recent event in Colorado shows two killers who are armed to the teeth (the Colorado killer was armored and capable of putting up a fight) - yet they stood down. They were finished, their "blood lust" (whatever that is...) sated.

My question for number three (I know I have not stated it yet) involves the conscience - or the light of Christ. Is there an afterthought of remorse? Why didn't they finish their task when they were so able? Is it their soul struggling from behind the veil - recoiling in disgust that their test on this plane has effectively come to an end? I would think no because that would presume that God's plan is imperfect - that the veil could be penetrated; nonetheless, is there a "light of Christ" that never truly goes away, only gets diminished (i.e. to 'harden one's heart'). Will these individuals have PTSD because of their actions? How come some warriors in the military have PTSD and others do not? It seems that criminals don't have PTSD and that warriors fighting the good fight do. Is there a correlation?

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I know this is a mouthful and yes my 'giant wall of text' is an eyesore, but I really want some thoughtful insight; otherwise I think I will turn to unhealthy sources to indulge in my analysis. I get heartbroken looking up combat/police shooting videos online - but I really am morbidly fascinated in this and I want to know. So please, your thoughtful insights? Also, any police/veterans who have or (through fog of war) think* they have taken another human life... please if you can... share your intimate experiences.

[annewandering]

I do not speak from personal experience but I have seen lives destroyed or horribly damaged because of war memories. I, too, have cringed at the horror Nephi must have felt yet he knew it was something he had to do. I think about the great generals of the Book of Mormon. They felt they had to fight and often was for righteous purpose but consider when they KNEW the causes were wrong yet fought out of loyalty and love of their people.

Your fascination may well be a kind of guilt for your thoughtless comments as a kid. It is obvious that you regret them. Perhaps you need to learn to forgive yourself?

[Dravin]

I have three questions, only the first two have to do with the foregoing Book Of Mormon testaments:

1) Is it plausible that the effects of sleepless nights, vomiting, nightmares etcetera, plagued the teenage youth in his obedience to the Lord? Is this the nature of the beast / was this to be expected as his personal trial?

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what this question means. What obedience to the Lord are you talking about that the perpetrator was engaged in?

2) Of all the wars and battles in the Book Of Mormon, what can we find that talks of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder? I know that there is sorrow and fierceness and sometimes even 'righteous fury;' but what about after the dust settles? Even though the fight may be just (ordained of God), is there a personal toll to be paid?

There is talk of not desiring bloodshed but there isn't anything like a self-diagnoses of PSTD made to my knowledge. You do have Mormon's lament about the death of his people, but PTSD isn't just remorse over something that happened.

My question for number three (I know I have not stated it yet) involves the conscience - or the light of Christ. Is there an afterthought of remorse? Why didn't they finish their task when they were so able? Is it their soul struggling from behind the veil - recoiling in disgust that their test on this plane has effectively come to an end? I would think no because that would presume that God's plan is imperfect - that the veil could be penetrated; nonetheless, is there a "light of Christ" that never truly goes away, only gets diminished (i.e. to 'harden one's heart').

Mormon taught that the spirit can stop striving with someone.

Will these individuals have PTSD because of their actions? How come some warriors in the military have PTSD and others do not? It seems that criminals don't have PTSD and that warriors fighting the good fight do. Is there a correlation?

Who will have PSTD is a psychological question, you seem to want to treat it as if it is a spiritual condition. Someone who gets lost in the woods and almost starves to death, or who was in a car accident can suffer PSTD. Heck, the victims of such shootings as being mentioned in this thread can suffer PSTD and they aren't the perpetrators of anything, justified or not.

Is it possible that having a more easily triggered conscience makes one more inclined to feel remorse and thus creates a point of psychological stress and thus an avenue for PTSD? I'm inclined to think so. That said, as far as you trying to draw a connection between criminals and soldiers, do they suffer the same psychological stresses? Is there equivalence between the stress levels of the two groups? I imagine as a group bakers suffer less PTSD than soldiers, but it most likely because as a group they have less stress related to their vocation than do soldiers, not because the spirit no longer struggles with bakers or because they lack a conscience. Is shooting the liquor store owner for his till as stressful as being in combat for months at a time?

Edited July 21, 2012 by Dravin

[Hala401]

I am not a counselor, or mental health professional. What I know about PTSD is because of having it, and by the mercy of Heavenly Father, learning to deal with it. There are several ways to get PTSD, and the battle field is only one of them. I have sat in group sessions with soldiers, both men and women who had it and not a single one of them said that their issues were any different than mine.

I think it can be dealt with and we can go on and live very fruitful lives. I have met people who are successful people in civilian lives who have been treated for it, and then there are people who never seem to get better. I can make no judgement about either type of person.

The LDS church has made dealing with the effects that are lingering a great deal easier.

[The_Warrior]

Thank you all for your insight; Dravin you seemed to explain a lot for me, I think I was sorting things where they do not belong. I guess I am trying to comprehend evil - and at the same time wonder why some people suffer for their actions here physically (mentally) and some don't.

I never correlated the spirit ceasing to strive as a conscience failing to act.

I have a firearm for the defense of my family and myself - I had a violent upbringing where I can harness some less than righteous energy to defend my family. I know I won't hesitate in doing what I have to do - but I am scared because once the dust settles, I do not know if I could handle it. Only very recently did I decide NOT to enlist in the military because of this... To take a human life is to deny them the chance of salvation... I am denying them their right to baptism and conversion in this life - YES I know that there is a plan in the next life as well... but there purpose to come here was to accomplish those things here; as long as there is breath in one's lungs, there is hope - barring the unpardonable sins...

I guess it bothers me because on the one hand, I feel I am incapable of these atrocities - yet sometimes I feel I can "dish out" those same atrocities against the evil doers. Does that make sense at all? I don't think it is justice; I get REALLY emotional when stuff happens like the incident in Colorado... oh if only I could have been there with my concealed weapon/permit...

Anyways - thank you all for your answers, I get tunnel vision and think very narrowly sometimes.

[NeuroTypical]

Moroni 7:16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

It seems to me that one of Satan's greatest successes, is getting someone to hate themselves so much that they believe themself to be an enemy of God. There are people who are totally convinced that "It's too late for me", or "God's rules about love and repentance apply to everyone else - not me". It's not that the Spirit of Christ leaves them, they are just so filled with self-loathing that they ignore or shout over it.

Mental illness can tempt or exert influence. It can also remove agency, making someone not responsible for their actions. It is often hard for us humans to tell the difference.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Gramajane]

I feel to agree with you, as depression (whether caused by chemicals or experiences- can overwhelm a person in terrible ways- to even cause their thinking to be so blocked that they kill themselves)

--- We are here on earth to learn and grow and do our best to handle the challenges we are faced with. Getting into the church with the restored understanding of the scriptures and the gift of the Holy Spirit (which is greater than the light of Christ- conscience?-- given to every person.

I have wondered though is sociopaths even have that- as I think one man we had the challenge of dealing with was so apparently without one, that he tried to explain (to a member of the board who was not LDS) when we confronted him with the discrepancies in the finances-- that the reason he had embezzled this particular amount of money from our company at that date, was to pay his tithing!!!

Sheeish! It was sickening- disgusting! I'm relieved (though not glad) to say that since he continued to lie instead of come clean with ALL he had taken, that we ended up reporting him to the legal authorities, and the authorized prosecutor took over, though she unfortunately was new, and though a misunderstanding on her part- didn't charge him with all he did, so he only had to pay back about $24 thou of the over $150 K he stole. But the judge was great and made sure he had to come do service in the community plus spend time in jail each year for about 5 years. --- That money he paid back when to business he had cheated- and none came to us, but God is the judge.

Things will be fair in the end, though they often are not seemingly fair at all in this life! Gods will be done!

[Gramajane]

opps, I didn't see the first post, just the one before mine above, so please reference mine to that one above mine.

Now I need to respond further, as I read all the rest (pretty fast)--

Having had some PTSD myself, not from war but almost unbelievably from my own birth which caused me to have the unconscious feelings all my life that

"terrible and awful things could happen to me at any moment over which I had absolutely no control or defense" .

My mother, who ALSO got PTSD from my birth, went on to take mega instruction education and became a counselor and worked with helping others, even with PTSD. There are some leading edge therapies that can really help us heal, though it is layers on layers as one event builds up on the others.

Some therapies are EFT which involves rapid eye movements like our bodies do in our sleep, when our minds work to sort through and clear trama of the day, and there is a book that has especially helped me recently. It is titled "Feelings buried alive never die" with a kind of "script" or almost a prayer, that helps your spirit, mind, body go back to heal the original cause of your problem with Gods help.

Anyway- God bless you and us all in our challenges in this life, to live up to the best we know as we seek to get more truth and light from God. Shalom!

[mordorbund]

I don't know about examples in The Book of Mormon, but Moses told Israel to have a sort of "detox" period after a battle if you actually kill someone.

Numbers 31:19-20 

And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day. And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats’ hair, and all things made of wood.

[Hala401]

I don't know about examples in The Book of Mormon, but Moses told Israel to have a sort of "detox" period after a battle if you actually kill someone.

Numbers 31:19-20*

Please, I am not about to say anything snide or trying to joke.

I just wonder what would happen if American Soldiers had a "cleansing session" patterned after these recomendations? I know Marines who are still attending group sessions from action in Vietnam; almost 40 years ago! Some wounds just never seem to heal, and we do not understand why.

In the blessings, and healings from the Holy Spirit, seldom a day goes by when I realise that Holy Spirit has quietly made some point of pain stop being troublesome.

For those whose faith might be flagging just now, what has happened to me in the LDS church never, ever happened to me as an evangelical or a Muslim. There really is something special going on here, and now I am afraid to disobey Heavenly Father, because I think it would hurt him, and now that I know the truth, he'd hold me accountable in ways that others do not experience.

I used to slip once in a while and go have pizza and beer, or drink coffee, or slip out in a mini. LOL

I was traveling the other day and got drowsy, so I stopped and decided I would have a cup off coffee for the road. Just as I was walking up to the coffee machine, Judy called me and I told her I was getting a cup of ... Yes, well I started to say coffee; gosh I had even asked Heavenly Father if I could; complaining that I was really tired and needed help. Just as I picked up the cup, I saw a hot chocolate machine.

There was my answer. It was so pleasant to sip on the cup of chocolate for the next 200 miles. I am totally alone in the world, save for Heavenly Father and my friends at church. It is nice to be taken care of by someone who loves me once again. I have a Jenny Phillips album that was playing and as I drove up over the mountains between John Day and Pendleton, the pleasure of the drive with all the other comfort items made me feel real joy. About dusk, I knew to slow down and sure enough a group of deer crossed the road in front of me, and later a half dozen Rocky Mountain Elk did also.

I now realise that with hot chocolate, Jenny Phillips, dry roads, lightning in the distance, and wild life with me on the roads, who needs a husband?

[NightSG]

If you want to know about PTSD, go to an expert on the subject; LtC Dave Grossmann. I highly recommend his book, On Combat as a means of understanding why some people get PTSD and some don't. The language isn't all PG-rated, but that's partly because a good bit of it is quotes from people who have been in situations that most of us pray we will never be in. I haven't read On Killing yet, but as I understand it, that one may be geared more toward the causes of severe, violent PTSD, where On Combat seems to be more targeted at the guilt and depression that some of us may face in jobs that tend to put us into smaller violent conflicts. (Security, law enforcement, etc.; jobs where you're going to get a few days off anyway after having to overcome the normal human aversion to having to kill or seriously injure another person.)

As a former Army Ranger and West Point psych professor, Grossmann has experience in the subject of stress, combat and the human mind that no sane person would want to get firsthand.

[NightSG]

I just wonder what would happen if American Soldiers had a "cleansing session" patterned after these recomendations? I know Marines who are still attending group sessions from action in Vietnam; almost 40 years ago! Some wounds just never seem to heal, and we do not understand why.

I suspect that faith, immediacy of action and strong routine were important factors. One of the things LtC Grossmann recommends is that people be trained to do something for a while after a high-stress encounter, just to occupy their minds during the initial period when they're trying to make sense of it all. Since killing humans is an inherently abhorrent action, sometimes a logical, righteous reason like self defense or defense of country doesn't take the forefront early, and the brain gets overwhelmed.

Seven days of prayer and cleansing rituals would tend to get one through the hardest part.

[Hala401]

I suspect that faith, immediacy of action and strong routine were important factors. One of the things LtC Grossmann recommends is that people be trained to do something for a while after a high-stress encounter, just to occupy their minds during the initial period when they're trying to make sense of it all. Since killing humans is an inherently abhorrent action, sometimes a logical, righteous reason like self defense or defense of country doesn't take the forefront early, and the brain gets overwhelmed.

Seven days of prayer and cleansing rituals would tend to get one through the hardest part.

I won't even attempt to compare what happens to a man in a fire fight in Afghanistan to what happens to children who are half beaten to death, molested, and devalued their whole lives, but I think that there are similar symptoms in each case.

It can be very comforting, sitting in a quiet place sewing together a pre-punched purse. The guys always seemed to do the moccasins though.

The worst can be the family shaming for speaking the truth, or the being spit on by civilians for serving your country. Helping another person can happen at the most unlikely time.

I was waiting for the bus to take me up to the VA Hospital where I volunteered. I was still Muslim then. I noticed a GI sitting on a retaining wall, and walked over to him to thank him for his service. He had been to Iraq as a medic 6 times he told me. I thanked him; saying that not all Muslims hate soldiers. With tears streaming down his face, he began to tell me his story. He'd grown to love the Iraqi people, but felt that the people who shot at him and the rest of the soldiers were just misled. I am not sure if he was an angel or not.

LDS folk have a special place in the scheme of things, and I hope that we do Heavenly Father's will to the best of our ability.