What we teach our young women.(what we shouldnt)


Ijustforgotit
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My wife has recently told me a few things about what she was taught in young womens. They always taught her that she should set standards to marry return missionaries and least one lesson a month completely focused on that subject. I do not think this is wrong , but i believe its wrong when women wont give a good man a chance. even though this person may be an active righteous member of the church.].. this upsets me very much... I did not serve a mission however i have gone to the temple with my wife... but yes i had hard times in my teenage years.... I have a great friend who is an active member of the church... and always was my friend even when i was going the exact opposite way of the teachings of the church... His wife had an affair on him and appostasised the church they got a divorce over a year ago... This friend of mine however did not serve a mission either, and is trying to find lds women to date.... I feel very bad because on multiple occasions he has said he has clicked with women on ldssingles.com and have really hit it off... but multiple times they have asked if he was an RM and hes not and they just stop talking to him.... I understand why some women have set a standard for themselves to marry a young missionary... but in know way do i believe that it should be a defining factor... i mean some of these girls wont even give him a chance.... why is that??? its sad to me... because i know that there are those within the church who did not serve missions who may in fact be more righteous and have a closer relationship with god then those who have. So please

any of you young women out there.. don't define a man on that one factor alone... its not right. Any thoughts?

They need to also teach in young womens that there are good men out there who have not served missions also... and that people can change....i did

UPDATE: I believe that god has missions for those who do not serve a mission at that time of their lives he has missions that are just as sacred that do not involve them leaving for two years to convert others.... Missions that we do not understand but that are just as important...

UPDATE: Judge a man on his current actions... not his past

Edited by Ijustforgotit
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If you actually read the lessons in the YW manuals, there is nothing that says to pick a returned missionary as a companion. Each manual (there are 3) does talk about making the committment to be sealed in the temple, and not married civilly.

Sounds to me that some teachers or listeners are teaching/hearing something that isn't in the manuals.

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President Monson and President Packer didn't serve missions. There are others. The WWII intervened in their lives.

A mission doesn't automatically make someone a good person. It can help but only if they let it help.

Addition: Personal experience: Back in the dark ages I was dating my husband...... We were high school sweethearts. After graduation we didn't move our relationship forward so I started looking around. He wasn't interested in a mission and he wasn't interested in school. My boss' son came home from his mission and we went on a few dates. On our first date he didn't wear his garments. It was pretty obvious through his shirt (and this is back when garments were one piece). I'm pretty outspoken and said something. The second date he wore his garments but I had to fight his hands off the entire date. I think there was a third date and a kiss. I know there were more than three dates. The more I got to know him I found him very controlling and when I told him I wouldn't date him again he threatened to have me fired. That's when I knew I'd made the right decision. Hubby and I were married a few months later and have been married 36 years. I'm glad I made the choice I did.

Edited by applepansy
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I am currently a young women and I can honestly say that yes, they do make a big deal about it and that is the general attitude in most women. I know one girl who turned 18 yesterday who said she wouldn't consider someone who isn't a RM.

For myself, there are 2 things that have influenced me with this.

Both of my parents are converts. Neither went on a mission. They have their challenges though. My mom dated a RM that ended up being a child molester. Thankfully she didn't marry him.As stated above, RM's are not perfect.

The other reason is my current bishop. He is a wonderful man, but he is not a RM.

For me, I am not immediately going to turn down someone that isn't a RM. I try to be open minded.

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This topic has come up a few times in my circle of friends and family.

I think it's extremely narrow-minded and wrong to automatically exclude any non-RM outright. (I have very strong feelings on this, and hopefully this post will clarify why.)

I do not believe that every single person is called to serve a mission. I just don't. This should be obvious by how the system works. Serving a mission is not a one size fits all calling. That being the case, then logically it would mean that the percentage of faithful LDS members who have served on a mission will always be something less than 100%.

Now, every single member of the church IS expected to get married at some point and rise a family. If all young women in the church followed the advice to only date RMs, then essentially, not going on a mission is like sentencing oneself to a single life... or to be forced to date outside the church. I find it hard to believe this is the intended result.

I have a good friend who didn't serve a mission. Is he not "good enough" to be of interest to an LDS woman? He works hard, is educated, has a good job, and has a lot to offer. Nevertheless, there are people in our church who would say he's not dating material because he didn't feel the Lord called him to serve a mission.

What are guys supposed to do? Go on a mission whether they feel called by the Spirit to do so or not? Is that really a good idea?

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I have mixed feelings on the subject.

To begin, I completely and utterly agree with all that has been said, that no girl should search only for an RM and that plenty of non-mission-serving young men are wonderful.

However, I also believe there are very few excuses for not serving a mission. According to my husband (who can get quite passionate on this subject), there isn't any. He's the sort of guy that believes even the paralyzed guy in the wheel chair can do SOMETHING. Now, my cousin's husband is a great guy who chose not to serve a mission in order to help provide for his mother and siblings right after his father passed away. I completely respect that.

Serving a mission doesn't automatically make you a righteous member of the church and servant of the gospel, but I believe the reverse is true: a righteous man will make the effort to serve a mission and not go with any excuse of "I"m just not cut out to go".

So I believe the intended point of some of those lessons is for a young woman to find a worthy and righteous man. And a righteous young man will most likely want to serve a mission.

So I do understand valid excuses, and I think young woman should be taught to look for deeper things beyond whether Cute Guy served a mission or not, but I don't think serving a mission is the personal choice so many want it to be.

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This was my experience, too. I remember being a Beehive and going into Mia Maids, and feeling that same EXACT attitude. Regardless, what the manuals say, YW teachers will have personal opinions like everyone else, and sometimes those opinions come off as doctrine to the girls they are teaching.

Absolutely, there are righteous men that don't serve, and may not even be members of the LDS church. But saying that, I think it's important that we have certain standards and expectations when jumping into the dating pool, potentially looking for a spouse. If someone prefers a returned missionary, so be it.

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I won't add a whole lot to the conversation other than to say this:

I worked in the mission office for several months as a missionary and was privy to some of the information about what missionaries were and/or weren't doing. My observation is that having served a mission is a very poor indicator of the commitment and conviction of the individual. And I was in a mission with very few behavioral problems.

Using "RM status" as an indicator of "fit for marriage" is just setting our young women up for disappointment.

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So I do understand valid excuses, and I think young woman should be taught to look for deeper things beyond whether Cute Guy served a mission or not, but I don't think serving a mission is the personal choice so many want it to be.

The only part where I don't agree (and it may just be a flaw in how I'm interpreting your post) is that there seems to be an overtone of "If this guy didn't go on a mission he should be seen as a slacker until proven otherwise."

I think to say that absolutely everyone should serve a mission (or even close to "absolutely") is a serious oversimplification. Not everybody is called to serve a mission, plain and simple, and the question of whether they've been called is personal, between them and Heavenly Father. For us to second guess it is terribly inappropriate.

I'll concede that most probably are. That doesn't mean the remainder should have to defend themselves.

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I didn't go on a mission. Landed myself a great mormon chick anyway.

As my wife and I raise our daughters, we are very mindful of this topic. We want them to pick good men and live happy full lives (on earth and through the eternities). We try to teach them everything we know about what makes a person good or bad. "Went on a Mission" really isn't enough information to tell one way or the other. Dedicating 2 years of your life to serve the Lord with all your strength is a good thing. Lying your way through the interview and paperwork and MTC and 2 years of mission for self-centered reasons is a bad thing, even though some good may have come of it. Going on a mission because you've always followed the path your parents set for you, could be a good thing or an indicator that a woman should look elsewhere for a marriage partner.

Individuals are, well, individual. They're unique. They're all mixtures of experiences and character and things. When looking for a mate, you must evaluate each one individually. I tell my daughters that I'm fine with them looking for an RM. There were lots and lots of women doing the same around me, and I hope they all found someone good to marry, but none of them married me.

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The only part where I don't agree (and it may just be a flaw in how I'm interpreting your post) is that there seems to be an overtone of "If this guy didn't go on a mission he should be seen as a slacker until proven otherwise."

I think to say that absolutely everyone should serve a mission (or even close to "absolutely") is a serious oversimplification. Not everybody is called to serve a mission, plain and simple, and the question of whether they've been called is personal, between them and Heavenly Father. For us to second guess it is terribly inappropriate.

I'll concede that most probably are. That doesn't mean the remainder should have to defend themselves.

Yeah, I think it's simply miscommunication between us, because I don't believe righteous members of the gospel are necessarily "slackers". I apologize for what I did to create that tone.

I also agree it's horribly wrong to "wonder" about why so-n-so didn't go on a mission. I personally consider it none of my business and I usually assume there was a valid reason they didn't go.

As for a personal choice, what I intended to mean is that the decision of serving a mission or not is on a completely different level than deciding between attending college or backpacking around Europe for a year. We have been told that all worthy and able young men should serve a mission, and I really do believe that's that.

Edited by Backroads
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I also wish we wouldn't teach women that modesty has to do with "not tempting the young men". How about we teach the young women to respect their bodies (and the bodies of young men), and teach young men to respect *their* bodies (and the bodies of young women), and teach them to *expect* respect and not put up with disrespectful behavior from anyone, regardless of how they're dressing, and call it good?

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That's always bugged me, Jenamarie. For years I heard the only reason to dress modestly was so the young men wouldn't be tempted. Modesty is about self-respect, respect for God, honoring the sacred body you were given, and maybe a bit about preparing girls to one day wear the garment.

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I do not believe that every single person is called to serve a mission. I just don't.

However you may believe, the fact remains that full-time missionary work is a Melchizedek Priesthood responsibility. Not every worthy young man will be called to serve a mission -- some will be "honorably excused" -- but the fact remains that every LDS young man should be worthy and willing to fulfill his Priesthood service, and that service includes full-time missionary service, unless specifically excused from it.

An LDS young man who refuses to serve a mission has thus declared that he will not do his duty in this thing. Since our prophets and leaders have made the necessity of missionary service crystal clear, such a young man is openly refusing the counsel of his leaders.

It is neither my place nor my intention to condemn such young men; I am simply stating obvious, self-evident facts.

Given that this is the case, is it any wonder that young women might use missionary service as a shibboleth of faithfulness? I agree that it's not a perfect indicator, and I also agree that there are fine LDS men who refused to serve missions (though I expect they have repented of that attitude) that would make far better, more loving husbands and eternal companions for our precious daughters than some young men who served a mission and yet remain selfish and petty. But the existence of exceptions does not invalidate the general rule.

I have a good friend who didn't serve a mission. Is he not "good enough" to be of interest to an LDS woman? He works hard, is educated, has a good job, and has a lot to offer. Nevertheless, there are people in our church who would say he's not dating material because he didn't feel the Lord called him to serve a mission.

I do not know your friend, but given your explanation of his condition, consider: His leaders told him he should serve a mission. Whether or not he personally felt the Spirit prompting him to do so, he was most certainly given that information under the authority from God. He chose to ignore it.

Such actions are the defining characteristic of the "cafeteria Mormon". Is that the sort of person you want YOUR daughter to date and marry -- someone who can conveniently dismiss counsel or commandment because he just doesn't feel the urge to comply?

What are guys supposed to do? Go on a mission whether they feel called by the Spirit to do so or not? Is that really a good idea?

They are supposed to qualify themselves to serve a mission. Part of that qualification is the turning of their hearts to God and submitting to his commandments and their own appointed duties -- including full-time missionary service.

Again, it is neither my place nor my intention to condemn anyone. But someone has to point out that the emperor has no clothes.

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I'm a returned missionary. My husband didn't serve a mission. He chose not to serve and has regretted it. He made some bad choices as a young adult, and he feels he would have made better choices if he had served a mission. Some of those choices he made back then carried over into our marriage, and has negatively impacted it. Spiritually, I feel he would be so much further ahead if he had served a mission.

And, if I'm ever in the position to date again, I would prefer to date a return missionary. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a man who didn't serve a mission, but through my own experience, the majority of men I've met who didn't serve a mission, didn't serve because they opted for a life style that wasn't following Gospel principles. Even if they have repented for their past mistakes, there are still consequences from their past. Believe me, the baggage my husband has brought into our marriage, has made our marriage relationship very difficult--to say the least.

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An LDS young man who refuses to serve a mission has thus declared that he will not do his duty in this thing.

Yep - back when my 18 yr old self made that decision, the reasons I gave seemed to convince everyone, but my real reason was that I did not have a testimony, did not even know if God existed, and did not feel any sort of allegiance to a church full of people who did, despite the various promises and covenants I had made. The woman who accepted my proposal for marriage 6 years later, saw a very different person. She saw someone who had resolved all those issues clearly and completely, developed a strong testimony, and was seeking the path God would have him walk, so he could get to walking.

Should my daughters show up with someone like I was at 18, I would offer the following advice: "Huh. Well, he has some good qualities, but you might want to hold off until he figures out what he believes before you get serious about him."

Should they respond by giving my own story back to me, I'd reply by mentioning my buddies who went inactive around the same time I did. I'm the only one who made it back. And I would reiterate my regret at not going in the first place.

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A couple Sundays ago we have a return missionary speak. I was taken by surprise when he announced to the congregation that during his mission he questioned why he was serving a mission. He continued to say that while he believed the gospel was true, he had doubts and for the first part of his mission, he really struggled with baring his testimony to investigators. Fortunately, before his time in the mission field ended, he said that there was one particular incident that confirmed all his doubts. He of course, has no regrets of serving and encouraged every able-bodied youth to serve a mission. My question is, and sorry for the sudden hijack but is this situation fairly common? For those of you that served, was it the case for you? And, even if you lack solidity in your testimony, should one still proceed with serving a mission (in hopes of gaining one along the way)?

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In the young women's manual, paraphrased (Young Women Manual 3, lesson 36), young women are counseled to establish standards for themselves.

Young women are to pray and counsel with their parents and the Lord as to what those standards would be, for her.

I would be cautious in calling a young women narrow-minded, or isn't making a right choice by deciding for herself that she wants to marry a returned missionary. It assumes you have a right to personal revelation for the standards of another in using their moral agency.

1. If a young women through prayer and counsel decides to marry a returned missionary, by which she feels has been confirmed by the Lord, isn't in narrow-minded. For some young women a returned missionary is the exact person they need to help them fulfill their mission on earth, and to have a happy and fulfilled marriage.

2. There are young women whose patriarchal blessing counsels them to marry a returned missionary. Should this young women disregard this counsel because others may think her narrow-minded? Heck no!

3. Young men and young women are counseled to attract a companion who they will be "equally yoked" with. Some young women will probably be more "equally yoked" with a returned missionary then without. The doctrine specified, "equally yoked." If a young women decides or determines a returned missionary, or a non-returned missionary, is "equally yoked" with her, then that is her right and her right alone, not for anybody else to make a judgement call against her.

For me, I am thankful for young women who wouldn't marry a non-returned missionary, otherwise my father would have married another woman, and would have never met my mother. I wouldn't want any other mother in the world, other than my own mother.

For young men who chose not to serve a mission, if you come across a young woman who wants to marry a returned missionary (a standard she set for herself using her divine moral agency), then this is a consequence for a young men who didn't choose to serve will have to endure.

*These are solely the views of Anddenex.

Edited by Anddenex
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I think it depends. I'm pretty anti-hypocrite and I believe that by the time you're old enough to serve a mission, you should be dependant on your own testimony for the most part and not be attending church just to please people.

Yet there's a difference between flat-out not having a testimony and lacking solidity. In the latter situation, if one is honorable, living righteously, and seeking a full testimony, I still believe that person ought to serve.

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My question is, and sorry for the sudden hijack but is this situation fairly common? For those of you that served, was it the case for you? And, even if you lack solidity in your testimony, should one still proceed with serving a mission (in hopes of gaining one along the way)?

In my case, I had grown up knowing and believing I would serve a mission. When drugs and alcohol were offered me, it was a matter of absolutely no temptation. When easy sex presented itself to me in high school, I could pass it up with little struggle and no regrets, because I knew I needed to be clean before God to serve a mission.

But I don't think I had a deep, burning testimony. I believed because it's how I had been raised and it all made sense. The deeper conversion came only with time, prayer, and scripture study, and mainly with committing myself entirely to living the gospel -- something I did only while on my mission. That conversion has changed my life and continues to this day.

But for the record, I was not a particularly effective missionary. I was obedient and I had good intentions, but I needed to be humbled (which occurred very, very early in my mission) and learn to listen, and even then it took years before I figured out how to do things effectively. My mission did far more good for me than I did for my mission.

So my opinion is: Yes, a young man should do his Priesthood duty and serve a mission, even if he's callow in spirit and unsure of himself. If he's otherwise worthy, he should go serve a mission. He will grow up in the process, and he might even do some good while his mission remakes him.

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A couple Sundays ago we have a return missionary speak. I was taken by surprise when he announced to the congregation that during his mission he questioned why he was serving a mission. He continued to say that while he believed the gospel was true, he had doubts and for the first part of his mission, he really struggled with baring his testimony to investigators. Fortunately, before his time in the mission field ended, he said that there was one particular incident that confirmed all his doubts. He of course, has no regrets of serving and encouraged every able-bodied youth to serve a mission. My question is, and sorry for the sudden hijack but is this situation fairly common? For those of you that served, was it the case for you? And, even if you lack solidity in your testimony, should one still proceed with serving a mission (in hopes of gaining one along the way)?

I am not surprised by this in the least, because I went through it as well. I am so thankful for answered prayers, which kept me on my mission. In saying this though, do not think I was being selfish or homesick, because I was neither. I honestly felt, I wasn't doing any good on my mission. My lack of charisma, my lack in this, all I could do was focus on my weaknesses, until one day praying, and then reading my scriptures the Lord answered me, and I am thankful for that answer.

I also taught at the MTC and was able to be an instrument in keeping 3 missionaries on their mission. One day while teaching, I shared this experience, and I had no clue why I was sharing this experience, except that I knew my spirit was telling me to share it. At the end of class an Elder approached me and said, "I know why you shared that experience." I thought, really, enlighten me. He then said, "It is because I needed to hear it." This Elder wanted to go home because of a girlfriend he had been dating for a couple years. He was so worried she was not going to be available when he returned home. I had long discussions with this Elder after class.

Unfortunately I didn't see him the last week, because my teaching scheduled switched and I wasn't the main teacher in that class. Every month I couldn't stop thinking about this Elder and how he was doing. I don't believe in coincidences, at least these types. I was visiting my cousins in Farmington Utah. They had a baseball tournament in Lindon. On the way home, my cousin asked if we wanted to get a bite to eat. We stopped at Wendy's. As I was walking to open the door, this young missionary was walking out. I asked him how he was doing, and this was his reply, "Brother Exon, I love my mission. I do not know why I even thought about going home. And guess what? I Dear Janed my girlfriend. This was the best decision of my life, I love my mission." It was awesome!

Sorry to support a hijacking ;)

Edited by Anddenex
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What I'm hearing here is...

If you're a convert to the church looking for an LDS girl to marry... you're out of luck.

* P.S. my husband is not a return missionary and I'll pit him against any RM any day of the week.

** P.P.S. my husband feels disciminated against because he didn't serve a mission. he doesn't let it faze him.

*** P.P.S. for those non-RMs... there's always the devout Catholic girls...

**** P.P.P.S... well, only if those girls are like me.

***** P.P.P.P.S. ... okay, I think I've said enough.

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What I'm hearing here is...

If you're a convert to the church looking for an LDS girl to marry... you're out of luck.

Then I think you are not hearing what's being said.

* P.S. my husband is not a return missionary and I'll pit him against any RM any day of the week.

I was not aware we were engaged in a competition.

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What I'm hearing here is...

If you're a convert to the church looking for an LDS girl to marry... you're out of luck.

* P.S. my husband is not a return missionary and I'll pit him against any RM any day of the week.

** P.P.S. my husband feels disciminated against because he didn't serve a mission. he doesn't let it faze him.

*** P.P.S. for those non-RMs... there's always the devout Catholic girls...

**** P.P.P.S... well, only if those girls are like me.

***** P.P.P.P.S. ... okay, I think I've said enough.

I don't know, anatess. You reading the same thead I am? The only ones that could remotely be saying what you think they are saying (and they aren't, read it again) are Backroad's husband and Vort.

So, yeah, I guess 2 of 13 or so posters is a majority.

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As I've read through this again this afternoon I feel impressed to share another experience. This time its about my son.

He dated a great girl in high school. She was a couple of years younger but even after he graduated they kept dating. One of her goals was to marry a return missionary. But she loved him and he loved her. They broke up a couple of times because he didn't have a strong enough testimony to go on a mission. Then when he was almost 21 he decided to really read the BoM, meet with the Bishop and get his life in order and go on a mission. They got back together, everyone counseled them that she shouldn't "wait" for him and they both assured everyone she wasn't waiting and he wasn't going for any other reason but because it was the right thing to do. However, It did turn out that the main reason he went was because he wanted to marry her and she wanted a return missionary.

The missionary grape vine is faster than email. He had been gone about 4 months and was having a wonderful mission. His letters home were amazing. Then he found out that while at Utah State she decided to go out which was not a big deal, he had told her to date. Where she went with the guy was the big deal. It was the deal breaker for him. She went to a bar with the guy and my son knew that's where she went before the next morning after this date. That crushed my him. He didn't admit it for several years but his thoughts at the time were "I'm not good enough to marry unless I go on a mission yet she can go to a bar?" Satan took advantage of that doubt. My son came home after being gone 6 months. Nobody could talk him into staying. He promised it didn't affect his testimony, but coming home early did open the door to temptation from Satan.

This was 10 years ago. For awhile every girl he dated was measured against this girl. He took off his garments about 2 years after he came home. He says he's agnostic. Yet, sometimes I see a glimmer of the testimony that shown as a bright light from his countenance.

My point in this story is that by placing the condition of marrying a return missionary, sometimes young women put themselves and the young me who love them in difficult situations. Its an honesty issue. Looking back they should have broken up, period. Then if he went it would have been for him and not her. IF when he came back she was still available they might or might not have gotten back together. But at least it would have been without conditions.

I think since the Church has raised the bar on eligibility for missions some of the issues have been resolved but I know there are still young men going on missions without being prepared or for the wrong reasons, such as, to please a girlfriend, mom and dad, grandpa or grandma, etc.

I believe its the right thing to encourage our young men to prepare for and go on a mission. Its where they need to be. But, they need to do it because its right for them not because everyone expects them to go.

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