Little foolish Religious lies, lies and more Lies


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One interesting things about lies comes as a quote from the sitcom Seinfeld when the George character said; “It is not a lie if you believe it.” It seems many believe this to be particularly valid concerning religion and in many cases politics. I am starting this post for many reasons so feel free to comment in any way you wish.

What are the worse kinds of lies – little lies or great big fat lies? I am thinking that in the long run it is the little lies that are most likely to get us off the path of truth – one reason is because those that pass on such lies do not seem to feel any obligation beyond a woops attitude when discovered. Whereas big lies seldom get spread as far and most intelligent people do not fall for them. In fact studies suggest the big e-mail lies (like I am a prince from a foreign country and need someone to transfer some money for me) are actually targeted to screen out anyone with minimum intelligence and focus on the idiots stupid and greedy enough to respond.

Another little lie often used is when someone says they are giving 110%. I was once told by a sort of innocent not really realizing what they were saying person that told me they were 1/3 Native American.

One thing I would highlight – especially in religion – that just because symbolism is often used in sacred scripture – that is not an excuse for individuals to make up their own misleading sayings. An example is that Jesus was 100% human and 100% divine G-d. At best this may touch on a truth but is more misleading than instructive. The reason is that incremental percentages by definition cannot exceed an aggregate percentage of 100% - which in this case ends up at 200%. If Jesus was equal portions of human and G-d the true indication would be 50% human and 50% G-d – or better yet – part human part G-d. The 100% human 100% G-d is a foolish exaggeration that is in essence undefined and therefore demonstrates that the person using such terms is not thinking through what it is they are communicating. But worse yet – because it is a undefined and ambiguous reference – it can seem easy to defend either position and no one really knows or understands what anyone is really trying to say – leading to endless arguing over irrational points that may or may not have any actual application. But we so love to divert from truth to make an ambiguous religious reference that it is an easy temptation for us all to fall into.

Another little lie – concerns terms like justice, mercy and free will. Some think that “natural consequences define justice and even mercy. Or that any choice is free will (example: a terrorist takes a family as instructs the father to choose if his wife or his child is murdered – the choice does not represent free will). Likewise a person tricked into a particular choice is not expressing free will. The operative word here is will – and sometimes I get the impression that some people do not care enough about other people to realize that their choices under duress are not choices of will.

I guess my point is that I believe that G-d does not, will not and cannot tolerate lies – even the little lies. That the father of any and all lies is Satan and his prime target is anyone seeking the truth. So, without lying, how do we stay on the path of truth and avoid the temptation of lies – especially the little lies?

The Traveler

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From Gospel Principles

"When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest."

-RM

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I guess my point is that I believe that G-d does not, will not and cannot tolerate lies – even the little lies. That the father of any and all lies is Satan and his prime target is anyone seeking the truth. So, without lying, how do we stay on the path of truth and avoid the temptation of lies – especially the little lies?

I am reminded of the Lords words, "I am the way, the truth, and the life..." We understand his path does not divert to the right or to left. Truth, doesn't exist in the same space a lie does exist.

We stay on the path through the principles of faith, hope, and charity which leads all humankind to do good. So as not to be misunderstood, this could be better said, faith in Christ, hope in Christ, and have the pure love of Christ.

A lie is evil. Charity thinketh no evil. If one thinks no evil, it will be hard for a person then to lie.

This question could go more in depth towards, partial truths, milk before meat, etc... However, this suffices the question.

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Another little lie – concerns terms like justice, mercy and free will. Some think that “natural consequences define justice and even mercy. Or that any choice is free will (example: a terrorist takes a family as instructs the father to choose if his wife or his child is murdered – the choice does not represent free will). Likewise a person tricked into a particular choice is not expressing free will. The operative word here is will – and sometimes I get the impression that some people do not care enough about other people to realize that their choices under duress are not choices of will.

I guess my point is that I believe that G-d does not, will not and cannot tolerate lies – even the little lies. That the father of any and all lies is Satan and his prime target is anyone seeking the truth. So, without lying, how do we stay on the path of truth and avoid the temptation of lies – especially the little lies?

The Traveler

People's beliefs about how God judges and balances justice and mercy are not lies. That is their belief. Free will is given to all men.. that doesn't mean we have perfect circumstances to exercise it in.

I'm not sure who would think that things literally forced under duress would be choices at all, let alone choices of free will for the victim? But whoever is thinking that should know that God is the only one who knows the entirety of a situation and will exercise perfect justice and mercy.

We're commanded not to bear false witness. Whether we do or not is between ourselves and God. If you have a problem with lying take it up with God and yourself and ask yourself why. How do you avoid the temptation of lies? Choose to live a life that you don't have to lie about. Be real with other people and with yourself, and cultivate a personal relationship with our Heavenly Father. He is my best friend in every sense of the word. You become like those you associate with. Choose good friends and choose good examples in your life in your entertainment, music, etc. Focus on your issues you want to overcome and not on other people's issues you perceive need to be overcome. It's between them and God.

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I guess my point is that I believe that G-d does not, will not and cannot tolerate lies – even the little lies. That the father of any and all lies is Satan and his prime target is anyone seeking the truth. So, without lying, how do we stay on the path of truth and avoid the temptation of lies – especially the little lies?

Just follow the scriptures.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

All liars, not just big liars.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Seven abominations, and two of them are lying.

I could go on all day. (Literally; I've done it, and my friend has almost forgiven me for it...but she stopped trying to justify "little white lies" to me after that.) If you'll look back through threads I've started in here, one of them is about this very thing, and mentions that I found 118 times that we're told to tell the truth, or not to lie, or people are praised for honesty or condemned for dishonesty. Not once in all the scriptures is there a single mention of the size or significance of the lie.

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People's beliefs about how God judges and balances justice and mercy are not lies. That is their belief. Free will is given to all men.. that doesn't mean we have perfect circumstances to exercise it in.

I'm not sure who would think that things literally forced under duress would be choices at all, let alone choices of free will for the victim? But whoever is thinking that should know that God is the only one who knows the entirety of a situation and will exercise perfect justice and mercy.

We're commanded not to bear false witness. Whether we do or not is between ourselves and God. If you have a problem with lying take it up with God and yourself and ask yourself why. How do you avoid the temptation of lies? Choose to live a life that you don't have to lie about. Be real with other people and with yourself, and cultivate a personal relationship with our Heavenly Father. He is my best friend in every sense of the word. You become like those you associate with. Choose good friends and choose good examples in your life in your entertainment, music, etc. Focus on your issues you want to overcome and not on other people's issues you perceive need to be overcome. It's between them and God.

I have thought about your post long and hard. I am not sure how to address points I think you are making without creating what you may think of as an offense. But let me begin:

How can you choose to live a life you do not have to lie about if at the core are beliefs that are not true? It does seem to me that if there are some lies that do more damage than others - that it is the "little" lies we tell ourselves in order to believe and justify beliefs in things that are not true.

In the eternal scheme of things it seems clear to me that those that support you in justifying things that are not true are in reality not your friends but more like your worse enemy - and those that attempt to make truth clear to you are not really just a critic but your "best" friends.

So I ask a question - are we to consider our critics and those that disagree with our opinions (from that perspective only) as our friends or our foes?

It is interesting that Alexander the Great most trusted and love general was his harshest critic that always opposed his plans. Alexander responded that this particular general was the best trained general and thinker he had. He would clearly point out flaws in his plans and had knowledge as to how enemies would respond in conflict. Alexander said he would not have won a single battle without him even though they seldom if ever agreed in how the battle should be set.

The Traveler

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When your wife asks you if her outfit makes her look fat what are you supposed to say?:D

Let's not get over simplistic here.:huh:

Some lies are know as "tact". And all of us do it all the time. Don't lie.........................:eek:

"Does this dress make my rear end look fat?"

[Happily married man's response] "Why, no, beloved! It flatters your already beautiful figure!"

[Too-honest response] "No, the dress doesn't make your rear end look fat. Your fat rear end makes your rear end look fat."

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When your wife asks you if her outfit makes her look fat what are you supposed to say?:D

I say yes, then she changes after giving me a slightly evil glare.

Just don't ever tell her it's not the outfit that is making her look fat. :eek:

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One interesting things about lies comes as a quote from the sitcom Seinfeld when the George character said; “It is not a lie if you believe it.” It seems many believe this to be particularly valid concerning religion and in many cases politics. I am starting this post for many reasons so feel free to comment in any way you wish.

What are the worse kinds of lies – little lies or great big fat lies? I am thinking that in the long run it is the little lies that are most likely to get us off the path of truth – one reason is because those that pass on such lies do not seem to feel any obligation beyond a woops attitude when discovered. Whereas big lies seldom get spread as far and most intelligent people do not fall for them. In fact studies suggest the big e-mail lies (like I am a prince from a foreign country and need someone to transfer some money for me) are actually targeted to screen out anyone with minimum intelligence and focus on the idiots stupid and greedy enough to respond.

Another little lie often used is when someone says they are giving 110%. I was once told by a sort of innocent not really realizing what they were saying person that told me they were 1/3 Native American.

One thing I would highlight – especially in religion – that just because symbolism is often used in sacred scripture – that is not an excuse for individuals to make up their own misleading sayings. An example is that Jesus was 100% human and 100% divine G-d. At best this may touch on a truth but is more misleading than instructive. The reason is that incremental percentages by definition cannot exceed an aggregate percentage of 100% - which in this case ends up at 200%. If Jesus was equal portions of human and G-d the true indication would be 50% human and 50% G-d – or better yet – part human part G-d. The 100% human 100% G-d is a foolish exaggeration that is in essence undefined and therefore demonstrates that the person using such terms is not thinking through what it is they are communicating. But worse yet – because it is a undefined and ambiguous reference – it can seem easy to defend either position and no one really knows or understands what anyone is really trying to say – leading to endless arguing over irrational points that may or may not have any actual application. But we so love to divert from truth to make an ambiguous religious reference that it is an easy temptation for us all to fall into.

Another little lie – concerns terms like justice, mercy and free will. Some think that “natural consequences define justice and even mercy. Or that any choice is free will (example: a terrorist takes a family as instructs the father to choose if his wife or his child is murdered – the choice does not represent free will). Likewise a person tricked into a particular choice is not expressing free will. The operative word here is will – and sometimes I get the impression that some people do not care enough about other people to realize that their choices under duress are not choices of will.

I guess my point is that I believe that G-d does not, will not and cannot tolerate lies – even the little lies. That the father of any and all lies is Satan and his prime target is anyone seeking the truth. So, without lying, how do we stay on the path of truth and avoid the temptation of lies – especially the little lies?

The Traveler

For all the reasons you stated above, we can't avoid lies by our intellectual reasoning. It can only really be done by being in tune to the spirit. The spirit will guide us away from lies and speak to us truths. Like your opening quote suggests, the little lie starts to become a belief. The trick is understanding what our brain believes and what our spirit knows. Those two things can be hard to distinguish if the skill of discernment is not strong. The way to discern is to be in tune with the spirit and know that that form of knowledge is more powerful than intellectual reasoning, or the knowledge of man.

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For all the reasons you stated above, we can't avoid lies by our intellectual reasoning. It can only really be done by being in tune to the spirit. The spirit will guide us away from lies and speak to us truths. Like your opening quote suggests, the little lie starts to become a belief. The trick is understanding what our brain believes and what our spirit knows. Those two things can be hard to distinguish if the skill of discernment is not strong. The way to discern is to be in tune with the spirit and know that that form of knowledge is more powerful than intellectual reasoning, or the knowledge of man.

Are you saying that intellectual reasoning has nothing ever, at any time, to do with the spirit and therefore should be avoided and discarded at all costs and without exceptions? -- Including your posts?

The Traveler

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Are you saying that intellectual reasoning has nothing ever, at any time, to do with the spirit and therefore should be avoided and discarded at all costs and without exceptions? -- Including your posts?

The Traveler

Haha, good one!

No, of course not, it doesn't have to be an all or nothing issue, it is a both at the same time issue like we have been discussing in the other thread. My brain is okay with not having everything divided black and white, all or nothing, 1 or 0. There are degrees to which we may be accepting of some information over others. And here, as your title suggested, we are talking about Religious facts and lies.

As it says in 1 Corinthians, spiritual things are learned spiritually. If there is such a thing as spiritual learning then there has to be physical learning. The trick is to distinguish the two. But, my point is that one could never distinguish the two by physical learning alone. The foolishness of those that don't learn things spiritually has to include an understanding of how they learned something if it wasn't through spiritual discernment.

I like how President Monson puts it here; "My brothers and sisters, I declare to you, however, that there is nothing which can bring more joy into our lives or more peace to our souls than the Spirit which can come to us as we follow the Savior and keep the commandments. That Spirit cannot be present at the kinds of activities in which so much of the world participates. The Apostle Paul declared the truth: “The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”4 The term natural man can refer to any of us if we allow ourselves to be so.

We must be vigilant in a world which has moved so far from that which is spiritual. It is essential that we reject anything that does not conform to our standards, refusing in the process to surrender that which we desire most: eternal life in the kingdom of God. The storms will still beat at our doors from time to time, for they are an inescapable part of our existence in mortality. We, however, will be far better equipped to deal with them, to learn from them, and to overcome them if we have the gospel at our core and the love of the Savior in our hearts. The prophet Isaiah declared, “The work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.”"

-----

If the world has moved so far from that which is spiritual and yet we have had great technological and scientific advancements, where has it moved? IQ has increased across the board over the past several decades. So, moving away from that which is spiritual has little to do with the amount of knowledge or intelligence but the type. Is it spiritual or carnal knowledge?

The trick is to know what 'peace' and that assurance feels like and where to find it.

_____

Elder Paul Johnson of the Seventies said; "“One way to help students is to help them realize that different types of knowledge are acquired using different methods,” he said. “We love the truth. As Latter-day Saints we seek for truth, and accept it when we find it.”

In the scientific world the scientific method is used to learn truth and advance knowledge, he said.

“Learning spiritual things, however, requires a different approach than learning scientific things,” he said. “The scientific method and intellect are very helpful, but they alone will never bring spiritual knowledge. Learning spiritual things involves the intellect, but that is not enough. We learn spiritual things only by the Spirit.”

Drawing from the example of Laman and Lemuel in the Book of Mormon when they wondered about the things Lehi had taught them, Elder Johnson spoke of the need to inquire of the Lord and be worthy of an answer.

“This pattern is crucial for our students to understand if they have questions about spiritual things,” he said. “We can make the mistake of trying to resolve doubts about spiritual things by leaning exclusively on intellectual answers. Answers to spiritual questions are given to individuals who don’t harden their hearts; who ask in faith, believing that they will receive; and who diligently keep the commandments.

and "Sometimes individuals can get sidetracked trying to determine the veracity of spiritual things by subjecting them to tests that were never designed for spiritual things, Elder Johnson taught.

Debating spiritual things using only temporal evidence and methods doesn’t settle the issues,” he said. “And yet this seems to be part of some externally imposed set of rules people use to explore questions about the gospel and the Church. … If scientists tried to prove their hypotheses without following the scientific method they would have no credibility. It is just as strange to think of people trying to prove or disprove spiritual things without following the pattern of learning spiritual things.”

Edited by Seminarysnoozer
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Haha, good one!

No, of course not, it doesn't have to be an all or nothing issue, it is a both at the same time issue like we have been discussing in the other thread. My brain is okay with not having everything divided black and white, all or nothing, 1 or 0. There are degrees to which we may be accepting of some information over others. And here, as your title suggested, we are talking about Religious facts and lies.

As it says in 1 Corinthians, spiritual things are learned spiritually. If there is such a thing as spiritual learning then there has to be physical learning....

Since Satan is not a physical being - how can he be behind physical misdirections and lies?

May I suggest that the term "spiritually" is a symbolic term being used and is not exactly literal. Rather it is to be more closely related to light and truth. But do not take my terms literal because I intend them to be symbolic references to spiritual truths. :D

The Traveler

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Since Satan is not a physical being - how can he be behind physical misdirections and lies?

May I suggest that the term "spiritually" is a symbolic term being used and is not exactly literal. Rather it is to be more closely related to light and truth. But do not take my terms literal because I intend them to be symbolic references to spiritual truths. :D

The Traveler

He was given that power as a result of the Fall. How that happens I do not know.

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“It is not a lie if you believe it.”

What are the worse kinds of lies – little lies or great big fat lies?

Hmmm. We all tell ourselves "little" lies. I refer to them as "Political Niceties". We say them simply to be politically nice, like politically correct but we all know they are lies.

One such lie ... when your home teaching numbers are way down, it's the home teachers are not doing thier responsibilities.

How often have we encountered members that go out of their way, do everythng they can, to avoid the home teachers. You show up by surprise & knock, you can hear them in there but they aren't answering ... must be they saw the dress shirts & ties as you came up the walk.

They don't answer your calls or return them.

It's not always the home teachers fault!

Another favorite of home teaching ... We all want to believe that our families value our message & that they think of it maybe even contemplate it & discuss it after we leave.

I know I'm not the only one that usually forgets the Home Teachers message almost as soon as he walks out the door, that is until I prepare the message for my HT families. If I didn't have to HT the message would have been long forgotten by the end of the month!

NO! Can't Be! We value what our HTs bring to our homes & teach us.

We all know that if everyone had to turn in their car keys when they entered the church & would not get them back until the block of meetings was over, that the Sunday School classes would all be FULL, not to mention the various priesthood quorums. But we don't want to admit or think about how many people skip out, or skip the middle hour.

A Bishop I know use to joke about wanting to work as a "greeter" at Walmart on Sunday, particularly in the morning just before & just after meetings, maybe even during .... see how many ward members would look him in the eye as they walked thru those doors.

How many members would even reconize the greeter as being their Bishop or would they just walk by him like he was just another person?

We know but we don't want to know, so we smile & pretend & "lie".

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Since Satan is not a physical being - how can he be behind physical misdirections and lies?

AofF 2:

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

Satan is the father of contentions, misdirections and lies, when one lies and misdirects they are cut off from the literal blessings of exaltation. It may not be an instant that those who choose to lie go punished, but through time and season will what once was in darkness come to light.

We cannot be bothered by others and the choices they make in how they live, but we can help them if required of us. With the knowledge that Satan is evil we already have a written consent through the scriptures that his ways is not the ways of the Lord. These written testaments of old expresses many similar cases of what many of us face in these Latter-days.

Accountability is a essential factor in our spiritual merit, in my opinion, when we have the knowledge of Jesus Christ and choose to adhere and administer as disciples we must understand the sacred/holy authority that's being engaged in this manner.

Sins is not brought upon because of Satan or Adam, but because one chooses to give into whatever sin is upon them in that momment. What I'm stating is that we have the idea that Satan is not of righteousness, when one does not choose the right one is succumbing as his follower. Thus when we do good we are trying to be like Jesus and seeking to follow in his ways. Being a Saint is an enduring process and is not accomplished in this temporal state but sought in achieving spiritually (for those who is seeking to do the will of Heavenly Fathers).

One cannot compare lies when its entirety is unrighteous. To believe in something so sacred and holy such as covenant with Heavenly Father is wonderful, but when one try's to shake the very foundation of that belief it's too late for it was built upon the rock of Jesus Christ. For those whom do not believe in Jesus Christ and his ways they have built their lifestyle, homes, all means necessary upon what? Upon themselves, there personal wants or needs, and when you think of this it becomes apparent that there is no one to gain glory but themselves.

Now, when you think about the gospel of Jesus Christ and how everything evolves around him and his teachings everyone is able to give, do good deeds, be spiritually inspired on a common denominator. It becomes clear that the glory is an eye single to our Heavenly Father, Jesus is the one and the last way to our salvation and exaltation with our Eternal Father. Who else on earth can help us to return to Heavenly Father, even in these Latter-days? Our prophets, bishops, missionaries, young women and young men leaders, visiting teachers, and family home evenings must evolve in teaching about Jesus Christ. Not one lesson in church or in the scriptures have I encountered had nothing to do with our Savior, for everything was a testament to his coming and resurrection.

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May I suggest that the term "spiritually" is a symbolic term being used and is not exactly literal. Rather it is to be more closely related to light and truth. But do not take my terms literal because I intend them to be symbolic references to spiritual truths. :D

The Traveler

Is there any "term" that is not symbolic? The definition of "term" is 'a word or group of words designating something'. I don't know of any "term" that is literal, unless I guess if you are watching the movie Dune, then you might see what a 'literal term' looks like. Otherwise I have no idea what you are talking about.

Symbolic references to spiritual truths is one of Satan's greatest tools. He is the master of mimicry. “… by every possible means he seeks to darken the minds of men and then offers them falsehood and deception in the guise of truth. Satan is a skillful imitator, and as genuine gospel truth is given the world in ever-increasing abundance, so he spreads the counterfeit coin of false doctrine. … [As] ‘the father of lies’ he has … become, through the ages of practice in his nefarious work,” such an adept “that were it possible he would deceive the very elect.” (Joseph F. Smith in Daniel H. Ludlow, Latter-day Prophets Speak [bookcraft, 1948], pp. 20–21.)

The words, or terms alone mean nothing unless testified by the spirit, which is of course part of spiritual learning. I would propose to you that if it is not learned spiritually it turns to dust like the rest of the body. What happens to the mind of a great scientist and one who has studied all their life and in their later years develops Alzheimer's? Or at the moment the person dies? Eternal things have to be formed via eternal methods, which is part of what is meant by spiritual learning. The common phrase would be something like "taking it to heart". This is how it is possible to be ever learning but never come to an understanding of real truths.

It has nothing to do with the information itself but how it is received. Once a person understands this then they can really grasp the value of doing everything with an "eye single to the glory of God". That is the only way to make it stick, to last beyond the grave. Spiritual learning has to do with its eternal effect not just its valence of truth. Temporal learning can be just as true and factual, like learning the chemistry and engineering of a nuclear bomb. Those things can be true. But what makes a truth spiritually learned is the way and the desire in which it is taken in. How it is learned determines where the information goes as well, is it learned physically or spiritually, respectively taken in by the body (brain) or does it either go directly to the spirit or reach the spirit via the body. Spiritual learning requires a spiritual event. To comprehend this requires the understanding that something can be learned just physically. One example, when a baby is born, does it know how to suckle because the spirit taught it such things or because of the wiring of the brain which makes it instinctual?

Another example of this is description of those that are so evil in this life that they have shut off any spiritual input. They have hardened their hearts, their eyes have become darkened to the spiritual truth. Does that mean they cannot learn physical truths? They can't take a class on vascular anatomy so they can learn where to stick a knife into someone? The vascular anatomy they learn may be true and yet we are told they are cut off from the spirit and don't hearken to the spirit and are not learning spiritually. They can learn truths, but they are of no value in the end as they are not received spiritually.

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Is there any "term" that is not symbolic? The definition of "term" is 'a word or group of words designating something'. I don't know of any "term" that is literal, unless I guess if you are watching the movie Dune, then you might see what a 'literal term' looks like. Otherwise I have no idea what you are talking about.

Symbolic references to spiritual truths is one of Satan's greatest tools. He is the master of mimicry. “… by every possible means he seeks to darken the minds of men and then offers them falsehood and deception in the guise of truth. Satan is a skillful imitator, and as genuine gospel truth is given the world in ever-increasing abundance, so he spreads the counterfeit coin of false doctrine. … [As] ‘the father of lies’ he has … become, through the ages of practice in his nefarious work,” such an adept “that were it possible he would deceive the very elect.” (Joseph F. Smith in Daniel H. Ludlow, Latter-day Prophets Speak [bookcraft, 1948], pp. 20–21.)

The words, or terms alone mean nothing unless testified by the spirit, which is of course part of spiritual learning. I would propose to you that if it is not learned spiritually it turns to dust like the rest of the body. What happens to the mind of a great scientist and one who has studied all their life and in their later years develops Alzheimer's? Or at the moment the person dies? Eternal things have to be formed via eternal methods, which is part of what is meant by spiritual learning. The common phrase would be something like "taking it to heart". This is how it is possible to be ever learning but never come to an understanding of real truths.

It has nothing to do with the information itself but how it is received. Once a person understands this then they can really grasp the value of doing everything with an "eye single to the glory of God". That is the only way to make it stick, to last beyond the grave. Spiritual learning has to do with its eternal effect not just its valence of truth. Temporal learning can be just as true and factual, like learning the chemistry and engineering of a nuclear bomb. Those things can be true. But what makes a truth spiritually learned is the way and the desire in which it is taken in. How it is learned determines where the information goes as well, is it learned physically or spiritually, respectively taken in by the body (brain) or does it either go directly to the spirit or reach the spirit via the body. Spiritual learning requires a spiritual event. To comprehend this requires the understanding that something can be learned just physically. One example, when a baby is born, does it know how to suckle because the spirit taught it such things or because of the wiring of the brain which makes it instinctual?

Another example of this is description of those that are so evil in this life that they have shut off any spiritual input. They have hardened their hearts, their eyes have become darkened to the spiritual truth. Does that mean they cannot learn physical truths? They can't take a class on vascular anatomy so they can learn where to stick a knife into someone? The vascular anatomy they learn may be true and yet we are told they are cut off from the spirit and don't hearken to the spirit and are not learning spiritually. They can learn truths, but they are of no value in the end as they are not received spiritually.

hmmmm - I submit that regardless of the physical input we end up listening to a spirit - either of G-d or Satan - that will continue to have control over us in the spirit world.

I also submit that such spirit will have influence in our resurrection - to determine our kingdom of glory. In other words despite all the physical input - it is the spirit that gives life and determines our destiny for good or evil.

It seems you keep trying to separate good and evil into spirit and physical - I do not think it works that way at all. That at the core is that which is spirit. Thus to do good or evil we follow a good or evil spirit. The physical is just a distraction that gives unclean spirits an advantage.

The Traveler

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Traveler,

One thing I would highlight – especially in religion – that just because symbolism is often used in sacred scripture – that is not an excuse for individuals to make up their own misleading sayings. An example is that Jesus was 100% human and 100% divine G-d. At best this may touch on a truth but is more misleading than instructive. The reason is that incremental percentages by definition cannot exceed an aggregate percentage of 100% - which in this case ends up at 200%. If Jesus was equal portions of human and G-d the true indication would be 50% human and 50% G-d – or better yet – part human part G-d. The 100% human 100% G-d is a foolish exaggeration that is in essence undefined and therefore demonstrates that the person using such terms is not thinking through what it is they are communicating. But worse yet – because it is a undefined and ambiguous reference – it can seem easy to defend either position and no one really knows or understands what anyone is really trying to say – leading to endless arguing over irrational points that may or may not have any actual application. But we so love to divert from truth to make an ambiguous religious reference that it is an easy temptation for us all to fall into.

I disagree with your statement. If two things are in the same category (not sure if that is the correct maths term) then they cannot add to over 100%. You cannot be 70% English descent and 60% African descent, fruit juice cannot be 100% apple and 100% orange. As LDS think of G_d and humans are in the same category then I can see why for you to say 100% for each is odd. However if you view them to be distinct categories then they can both be 100%. A lemon can be 100% yellow and 100% fruit. President Monson can be fully the LDS president and fully an american citizen.

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Traveler,

I disagree with your statement. If two things are in the same category (not sure if that is the correct maths term) then they cannot add to over 100%. You cannot be 70% English descent and 60% African descent, fruit juice cannot be 100% apple and 100% orange. As LDS think of G_d and humans are in the same category then I can see why for you to say 100% for each is odd. However if you view them to be distinct categories then they can both be 100%. A lemon can be 100% yellow and 100% fruit. President Monson can be fully the LDS president and fully an american citizen.

I can be 85% English and 100% American. Even two things of the same type are not necessarily additive.

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I can be 85% English and 100% American. Even two things of the same type are not necessarily additive.

You almost got it right - you may be crossing number theory and set theory. Or you may be making an un-rhytorical metaphor. Your statement can only be rhetorically true (possible) if the set of what is American includes at a minimum, at least 85% of the complete set of what is English.

The Traveler

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"(He) who would convey the truth must lie. Often he must enlarge the truth by diameters, otherwise his reader would not be able to see it." - Mark Twain

The above is a favorite quote of mine. Are exaggerations lies? or are they prophetic words elucidating the very real destinations where some roads end?

I actually have been frustrated with the dishonesty that is so rampant in this age of mis-information. That, and the flippant, sarcastic, snide mockery that is used towards those of faith... it really is disheartening.

With very rare exception almost every agnostic and atheists in the scientific community I know were raised by devoutly religious parents. And I do not think they became distant to religion because they were treated with loving kindness and compassion.

Somehow we (me included) need to learn to communicate love and respect with those with which we disagree - PC - is my example.

The Traveler

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hmmmm - I submit that regardless of the physical input we end up listening to a spirit - either of G-d or Satan - that will continue to have control over us in the spirit world.

I also submit that such spirit will have influence in our resurrection - to determine our kingdom of glory. In other words despite all the physical input - it is the spirit that gives life and determines our destiny for good or evil.

It seems you keep trying to separate good and evil into spirit and physical - I do not think it works that way at all. That at the core is that which is spirit. Thus to do good or evil we follow a good or evil spirit. The physical is just a distraction that gives unclean spirits an advantage.

The Traveler

Here are the various definitions of "spirit";

1.

a. The vital principle or animating force within living beings.

b. Incorporeal consciousness.

2. The soul, considered as departing from the body of a person at death.

3. Spirit The Holy Spirit.

4. A supernatural being, as:

a. An angel or a demon.

b. A being inhabiting or embodying a particular place, object, or natural phenomenon.

c. A fairy or sprite.

5.

a. The part of a human associated with the mind, will, and feelings: Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit.

b. The essential nature of a person or group.

6. A person as characterized by a stated quality: He is a proud spirit.

7.

a. An inclination or tendency of a specified kind: Her actions show a generous spirit.

b. A causative, activating, or essential principle: The couple's engagement was announced in a joyous spirit.

8. spirits A mood or an emotional state: The guests were in high spirits. His sour spirits put a damper on the gathering.

9. A particular mood or an emotional state characterized by vigor and animation: sang with spirit.

10. Strong loyalty or dedication: team spirit.

11. The predominant mood of an occasion or a period: "The spirit of 1776 is not dead" (Thomas Jefferson).

12. The actual though unstated sense or significance of something: the spirit of the law.

13. An alcohol solution of an essential or volatile substance. Often used in the plural with a singular verb.

14. spirits An alcoholic beverage, especially distilled liquor.

You are going with the 7th, 8th or 9th (or maybe 12th) definition of "spirit" which is fine. It is certainly used interchangeably throughout scripture and through various talks. I think I have been using those definitions for "spirit" also, but in a slightly different way. I have been saying that it is in the way we receive things (i.e. - the 7th, 8th or 9th definition of spirit) that will determine whether any learned fact or behavior becomes long lasting. If a person loves the thing or learns to love that thing then it will become part of the spiritual self (i.e. - the desires of the heart). I suppose that definition of "spirit" could fit with the 7th, 8th or 9th definition of "spirit".

Let me ask you, is there any source of evil that comes from the spirit of a 7 year old? Or how about one who has Down's syndrome? So, if a person with Down's syndrome jumps into a car and speeds off killing someone, was there an evil spirit involved? Or if a person starts believing the made up lies from their schizophrenic brain that tells them to jump off a ledge and kill their self, was there an evil spirit involved in that lie somewhere? If there was no evil in that case, where did it come from? The person's own spirit? No!

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It seems you keep trying to separate good and evil into spirit and physical - I do not think it works that way at all. That at the core is that which is spirit. Thus to do good or evil we follow a good or evil spirit. The physical is just a distraction that gives unclean spirits an advantage.

I would rewrite those statements with "carnal" in place of "physical" and see if you still believe that. As a result of the Fall all physical things in this world became carnal. So, until the second coming and everything that follows, yes, physical is carnal.

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