Third Part


mikbone
 Share

Recommended Posts

D&C 29: 36 states that a thrid part of the hosts of heaven sided with Lucifer.

This third part is not 33.3% but a third part.

If so, then it begs the question. What are the 3 parts? While having a discussion with my lovely wife this evening. I came to the realization...

Group A - Those spirits who chose to follow Jehovah

Group B - Those spirits who chose to follow Lucifer

Group C - Possibly this group of Elohim's spirit children were satisfied with their level of progression. They did not want to leave the nest and chose to stay as spirits forever in God's presence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

D&C 29: 36 states that a thrid part of the hosts of heaven sided with Lucifer.

This third part is not 33.3% but a third part.

If so, then it begs the question. What are the 3 parts? While having a discussion with my lovely wife this evening. I came to the realization...

Group A - Those spirits who chose to follow Jehovah

Group B - Those spirits who chose to follow Lucifer

Group C - Possibly this group of Elohim's spirit children were satisfied with their level of progression. They did not want to leave the nest and chose to stay as spirits forever in God's presence.

I read from another individual the potential being this:

Group A - Those spirits who were noble and great

Group B - Those spirits who chose to follow Lucifer

Group C - Possibly this group are those who were not distinguished as the noble and great ones, but still accepted Jehovah.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

D&C 29: 36 states that a thrid part of the hosts of heaven sided with Lucifer.

This third part is not 33.3% but a third part.

If so, then it begs the question. What are the 3 parts? While having a discussion with my lovely wife this evening. I came to the realization...

Group A - Those spirits who chose to follow Jehovah

Group B - Those spirits who chose to follow Lucifer

Group C - Possibly this group of Elohim's spirit children were satisfied with their level of progression. They did not want to leave the nest and chose to stay as spirits forever in God's presence.

I had never thought about this topic just like this, but it makes sense. In connection with this is another question I've had. If we believe that God continues to create, how is the "third part" designated. Regardless of definition, the one used by the OP or an actual 33.3%, these are after the fact designations, i.e., you can't have a third part unless there's a whole. So, is the "third part" just in relation to our creation's existence or all of the Father's creations.?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read from another individual the potential being this:

Group A - Those spirits who were noble and great

Group B - Those spirits who chose to follow Lucifer

Group C - Possibly this group are those who were not distinguished as the noble and great ones, but still accepted Jehovah.

Yeah, McConkie put forth this idea pre-1978. I never liked that idea. Moses 5:24 seems to imply that Cain was a rotten apple (way worse than a fence sitter) during the pre-mortal existence, yet He still chose Jehovah's plan.

Just from general observation of our fellow human beings, I have come to the conclusion that there must have been a wide spectrum of Nobel - lukeware - scumbags that chose to follow Jehovah.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here are some of my current thoughts based on some comments made by Seminarysnoozer and others on another thread about this same topic. They are of course just thoughts and are not yet fixed in my mind. I hope they may spark other thoughts.

All who came into mortality accepted Heavenly Fathers Plan

From Pres. Ezra Taft Benson in a conference address.

I testify that all those who come into mortality accepted our Father’s plan. (See Abr. 3:26.) Having proved faithful in their first estate in heaven, they are now subject to the test of mortality in this second estate. I Testify - Ensign Nov. 1988 - ensign

Those who came in mortality to Earth accepted the plan and passed the first estate. There were no fence sitters who didn't have anything better to do so decided to come to earth.

The three parts have to do with the hosts of Heaven that came to earth

No doubt there are many hosts in heaven and much we do not know. What has been reveled to us on this subject appears to be focused on those that are involved in coming here to Earth. Satan and his followers were "thrust down". Adam ate the fruit and thus was driven out of the Garden of Eden.

The devision appears to be based on agency which was given

"and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency" (D&C 29:36). "And we will prove them herewith..." (Abr 3:25).

The great differentiator between estates has to do with the body we receive

Satan and his followers have bodies of spirit only. We mortals are working to glorify our mortal bodies.

In Abraham 3:26 it does not talk about a third part being cast out but it does divide the hosts of heaven. "they who keep their first estate...; they who keep not their first estate...; and they who keep their second estate... "(Abr 3:26)

1. "They who keep their first estate" - We are these people. We are proving ourselves to see if we can gain permanently these physical bodies we have been given.

2. "They who keep not their first estate" - These are Satan and his followers. Those who have not keep their first estate, who were not give physical bodies but were cast down to earth none the less.

3. "They who keep their second estate" - There is one being who has come here that received a body but is unique. One who did not deserve to be subject to the fall. That being is Jesus Christ. The Father of his mortal body was God himself. As such, Christ had power to lay his body down and take it up again, thus keeping his second estate.

Edited by james12
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In Abraham 3:26 it does not talk about a third part being cast out but it does divide the hosts of heaven. "they who keep their first estate...; they who keep not their first estate...; and they who keep their second estate... "(Abr 3:26)

1. "They who keep their first estate" - We are these people. We are proving ourselves to see if we can gain permanently these physical bodies we have been given.

2. "They who keep not their first estate" - These are Satan and his followers. Those who have not keep their first estate, who were not give physical bodies but were cast down to earth none the less.

3. "They who keep their second estate" - There is one being who has come here that received a body but is unique. One who did not deserve to be subject to the fall. That being is Jesus Christ. The Father of his mortal body was God himself. As such, Christ had power to lay his body down and take it up again, thus keeping his second estate.

From Sunday AM conference Oct 2005, Richard G Scott, Truth Restored.

"And they who keep their first estate [that is to be obedient in the premortal existence] shall be added upon; ... and they who keep their second estate [that is, to be obedient during mortal life] shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever." (Abraham 3:24-26)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A third part doesn't mean there were three different groups. A third part is just that, a third, though it need not be scientifically precise. For example, a Hebrew poem from the 12th century calls Isaac a third part of the lights, refering to the tradition that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are likened to stars. Isaac here is a third of the same group.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

D&C 29: 36 states that a thrid part of the hosts of heaven sided with Lucifer.

This third part is not 33.3% but a third part.

If so, then it begs the question. What are the 3 parts? While having a discussion with my lovely wife this evening. I came to the realization...

Group A - Those spirits who chose to follow Jehovah

Group B - Those spirits who chose to follow Lucifer

Group C - Possibly this group of Elohim's spirit children were satisfied with their level of progression. They did not want to leave the nest and chose to stay as spirits forever in God's presence.

How do you know it means there were three groups of spirits and not simply that 1/3 of the whole chose differently? Isn't that complicating a pretty simple idea? Have you heard otherwise by a general authority or prophet?

Edited by carlimac
Link to comment
Share on other sites

How do you know it means there were three groups of spirits and not simply that 1/3 of the whole chose differently? Isn't that complicating a pretty simple idea? Have you heard otherwise by a general authority of prophet?

No, I haven't heard any definitive commentary either way. The scripture in question says "third part" not one third.

In my mind it is simpler to think of three groups. There have been multiple threads on this site discussing the difference between 1/3 and 3 parts.

See

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/42560-1-3-1-3-part-cast-out-heaven.html

One third part host all men? | Ask Gramps

The point of this thread is to to discuss this third part that is not directly mentioned. Many have indicated that this third group coud have been fence sitters, but that concept never has sat well with me.

Edited by mikbone
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, I haven't heard any definitive commentary either way. The scripture in question says "third part" not one third.

In my mind it is simpler to think of three groups. There have been multiple threads on this site discussing the difference between 1/3 and 3 parts.

See

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/42560-1-3-1-3-part-cast-out-heaven.html

One third part host all men? | Ask Gramps

The point of this thread is to to discuss this third part that is not directly mentioned. Many have indicated that this third group coud have been fence sitters, but that concept never has sat well with me.

Your whole premise, I feel, rests on a misunderstanding, so why don't we look at the usual meaning of "part" in Joseph's day?

Search => [word] => part :: 1828 Dictionary :: Search the 1828 Noah Webster's Dictionary of the English Language (FREE) :: 1828.mshaffer.com

part

P`ART, n. [L. pars, partis.]

1. A portion, piece or fragment separated from a whole thing; as, to divide an orange into five parts.

So, if the whole is the "hosts of heaven," then a "third part" is just that, a third of the whole. Looking for three distinct groups is rather unnecessary, doing violence to the plain reading of the text.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your whole premise, I feel, rests on a misunderstanding, so why don't we look at the usual meaning of "part" in Joseph's day?

Search => [word] => part :: 1828 Dictionary :: Search the 1828 Noah Webster's Dictionary of the English Language (FREE) :: 1828.mshaffer.com

part

P`ART, n. [L. pars, partis.]

1. A portion, piece or fragment separated from a whole thing; as, to divide an orange into five parts.

So, if the whole is the "hosts of heaven," then a "third part" is just that, a third of the whole. Looking for three distinct groups is rather unnecessary, doing violence to the plain reading of the text.

Yes it is a "third part". The 1828 definition of the word 'part' does not really bring any clarity to the discussion... I bet you that I can divide an orange into 5 unequal parts.

I have never seen any mention of 2/3 part in the scripture.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes it is a "third part". The 1828 definition of the word 'part' does not really bring any clarity to the discussion... I bet you that I can divide an orange into 5 unequal parts.

I have never seen any mention of 2/3 part in the scripture.

But it is still a part of the orange, not a habanero.

If there are only two groups talked about, those who rebelled and those who did not, then where is the third group? In other words, what would lead you to suppose that each part was a separate group.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But it is still a part of the orange, not a habanero.

If there are only two groups talked about, those who rebelled and those who did not, then where is the third group? In other words, what would lead you to suppose that each part was a separate group.

In my opinion it is implied.

Just because there are only 2 groups that are listed does not mean that there are not other groups...

Take for instance, Heaven. Many Christians believe that heaven in only one place. LDS group heaven into either 3 or 5 divisions. Depending upon how you look at it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my opinion it is implied.

Just because there are only 2 groups that are listed does not mean that there are not other groups...

Take for instance, Heaven. Many Christians believe that heaven in only one place. LDS group heaven into either 3 or 5 divisions. Depending upon how you look at it.

Implied where? If the word doesn't require three groups, if only two groups are mentioned in the scriptures, then why is it logical to assume three groups? That is why your speculation doesn't make much sense to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

D&C 29: 36 states that a thrid part of the hosts of heaven sided with Lucifer.

Group C - Possibly this group of Elohim's spirit children were satisfied with their level of progression. They did not want to leave the nest and chose to stay as spirits forever in God's presence.

Your group C will not work. The prophet Jacob noted that those who do not gain bodies and progress are forced to become angels of the devil. I prefer to see them as those who accepted God's plan, but were not the noble and great ones (the divine council).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are two problems that I think are taking place in this discussion. Both the problems revolve around trying to overthink the notions that we are given in scripture. The principle that many overlook is the principle of repetition. There is not a lot a detail about our pre-existence society. The ancient scriptures identify that there was a great division among the citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven. The symbolism of that division is presented as a one third part.

Ancient Hebrew and Jewish society dealt with whole or integer numbers. Fractions were not clearly associated with number theory. An example is the presentation that Jesus died and 3 days later was resurrected. It was just before sundown on Friday evening when Jesus was placed in the sepulcher. A literal count would be from Friday evening to Saturday evening as one day and then a second day from Saturday evening to Sunday evening as the second day – but Jesus arose Sunday morning – in less than two days! But because fractions are not a part of the ancient number system the entire first day is counted as a day or day one when Jesus died and was placed in the sepulcher. The second day began sundown on Friday and continued to sundown on Saturday when the 3rd day began. Did Joseph Smith correct this obvious mathematical error in his rendering of the New Testament? It is speculation to assume that the language symbolism of scripture should or would change during the restoration.

Another important principle associated with repetition is what some call types and shadows in scripture. Alma clearly divides the spirits coming to earth into two separate groups – those that were worthy of the blessings of the Melchizedek priesthood and those that would not receive these blessings – the reason is given that those receiving the blessings exercised greater faith. This would indicate that heaven was divided into 3 parts. I see no reason to assume that the parts were equal parts. It is interesting to note that following the flood of Noah mankind was divided into 3 parts through the 3 sons of Noah – this concept evolved into the infidels, gentiles and covenant children of G-d. Then in the resurrection the children of men are again divided into 3 parts in the 3 glories of heaven.

For purposes clear to G-d – his children are divided into 3 great categories. The full reason for this symbolism given in scripture may remain somewhat a mystery for many but for those the discard the symbolism there is likely to be misinterpretation of important principles in understanding G-d’s plan of happiness – the plan of Salvation.

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your group C will not work. The prophet Jacob noted that those who do not gain bodies and progress are forced to become angels of the devil. I prefer to see them as those who accepted God's plan, but were not the noble and great ones (the divine council).

The noble and great ones are leaders of those who did not follow Lucifer, not a separate group. The divine council, as you've noted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The noble and great ones are leaders of those who did not follow Lucifer, not a separate group. The divine council, as you've noted.

There were definitely 3 groups in the pre-existance. There are those that divided everyone into 3 groups and those that didn't. The third group was those that were mathematically challenged. :D

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There were definitely 3 groups in the pre-existance. There are those that divided everyone into 3 groups and those that didn't. The third group was those that were mathematically challenged. :D

Actually, I thought it was the other two groups who were mathematically challenged. No one liked my idea, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Although the OP is citing the "third part" phrase from the D&C, it is a phrase lifted from the Revelation of St John the Divine. Not only does he use it to describe those spirits who followed Lucifer, but the phrase comes up time and time again (or should that be time and times and half a time again?) referring to the destruction of the world.

Revelation 8:7-12

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Revelation 9:15

15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Revelation 9:18

18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am that third group.

It is, to me, a matter of understanding a perspective. I happen to have the perspective of 3 which I believe also overshadows the spirit world as well - that some see only as spirit prison and spirit paradise.

I have come to see this same grouping in all matters of social structure - but I do understand that most see things as black and white, pro and con or as often pointed out in scripture that everything has it opposite or opposition in all things. But rather than argue the point I believe it better to encourage others to find the pattern of the infidel (which has meaning in parallel with infidelity. The gentile and the covenant children or heir (also first born). All applied to the concept of a nation, kingdom or society.

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

D&C 29: 36 states that a thrid part of the hosts of heaven sided with Lucifer.

This third part is not 33.3% but a third part.

If so, then it begs the question. What are the 3 parts? While having a discussion with my lovely wife this evening. I came to the realization...

Group A - Those spirits who chose to follow Jehovah

Group B - Those spirits who chose to follow Lucifer

Group C - Possibly this group of Elohim's spirit children were satisfied with their level of progression. They did not want to leave the nest and chose to stay as spirits forever in God's presence.

Interesting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share