This Is A Mystery To Me!

[Rosewood]

Why do some protestant churches put soooo much time, money and energy into Mormon bashing? They think were a cult as in brain washed, lied to, blindly following a wicked money hungry Jim Jones kind of person. It really makes them look dumb to teach the things about us that they do at church because most of it is completely off! The thing is there are so many people that are attracted to that mud slinging mob mentality, it's creepy. I've even heard them claim they love mormon's and they want to help us out of evil way of thinking, when it's quite clear that they don't. (love is...KJV)

Here's another question. Why is it ok to have so many Christian denomination that disagree on all kinds of serious stuff like the importance of sacraments, and then say because we believe that God's attributes are a little different than they do that we're SO wrong, we're not even Christian? (whew!)

I know there's a lot about us they don't like. Thats ok. But the attitude is scary. And tuthfuly, they blame us of doing things I see much more in their churches than in the LDS church.

OK now I'm venting! My donation was refused twice by charities because I'm Mormon and I've been asked to leave a homeschool support group because I'm mormon not to mention (but I shall) the numerous slightly more subtle issues that come up socially and at work. And what's up with this nonsense outside of Temple Square? Is it any wonder we get defensive?

I don't mean to offend. It's just YEARS of frustration comming out here.

[prisonchaplain]

Why do some protestant churches put soooo much time, money and energy into Mormon bashing?

As an evangelical minister (we're the worst offenders, I believe), I'll try to address this. First, most don't. The ministries that do see themselves as "missionaries to Mormons." They want to save your soul from hell. I'll also admit that some get carried away--becoming very negative, argumentative, and ugly. A few may have found a career in their "informational ministry." BUT, most believe they are doing God's work by trying to pull you away from the COJCLDS and towards evangelical or fundamental Christianity.

They think were a cult as in brain washed, lied to, blindly following a wicked money hungry Jim Jones kind of person.

Not really. Most think that your doctrine is wrong, and that Joseph Smith was not a prophet. They fear that your teachings are so far from biblical truth that your souls are in dangered. I've not heard too many of these groups suggest that LDS practices mind-control.

It really makes them look dumb to teach the things about us that they do at church because most of it is completely off! The thing is there are so many people that are attracted to that mud slinging mob mentality, it's creepy. I've even heard them claim they love mormon's and they want to help us out of evil way of thinking, when it's quite clear that they don't. (love is...KJV)

That is what they believe. They think they are practicing love by showing you the error of your ways. BTW, don't you think their primary target are inactive or barely active Mormons?

Here's another question. Why is it ok to have so many Christian denomination that disagree on all kinds of serious stuff like the importance of sacraments, and then say because we believe that God's attributes are a little different than they do that we're SO wrong, we're not even Christian? (whew!)

The doctrinal differences between Baptists, Pentecostals, and even Catholics, is much less significant than with the COJCLDS. We can only hope that the atmosphere will improve. I've been led to believe that LDS theology is moving towards a greater emphasis on things like grace. No teachings and positions are changing--just emphases. But, such shifts can often leader to greater, more productive, more open dialogue.

I know there's a lot about us they don't like. Thats ok. But the attitude is scary. And tuthfuly, they blame us of doing things I see much more in their churches than in the LDS church.

I think your feelings are common to any person of faith who's teachings, values, and church are being criticized.

OK now I'm venting! My donation was refused twice by charities because I'm Mormon and I've been asked to leave a homeschool support group because I'm mormon not to mention (but I shall) the numerous slightly more subtle issues that come up socially and at work. And what's up with this nonsense outside of Temple Square? Is it any wonder we get defensive?

Your donations are more than welcome at: thechaplainsentertainmentfund.org

I don't mean to offend. It's just YEARS of frustration comming out here.

Come on. Let it out. Tell us how you really feel!

[Rosewood]

Thanks Chaplin, I needed that. I feel much better now.

The mind control thing I was refering to was the cult refrences. I've had more people than I can count tell me we follow blindly. They really belived it and nothing I could say would change their opinion. The Assemblys of God and Eve. Free have classes on how dangerous we are. I really dislike it when people are curious about us and they asked anyone but us what we believe. I like to go right to the source or it turns into gossip. And you know it really breaks my heart because I know most active Christians really love the Lord and their families and teach Sunday school at their churches and all the normal things we do, why do people feel we need to be fixed? Whats so wrong with our fruit.

If I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, Creator of all, my Redeemer, my Savior, if I ask Him to guide me and I dedicate my life to serving Him...doesn't that make me 'born again'? Isn't that all I need to be saved? I've been told thats all that matters, but I guess it isn't.

Do you know I've been a memeber of the lds church now for about 34 yrs and lived in several different states and in all that time I've NEVER heard one bad thing about any other church from church teachers, authorities, etc. and very seldom from a private conversation with other members. It's actually kind of taboo.

I'm firm in my beliefs, it just makes me sad.

[prisonchaplain]

In another forum there was a back & forth that one more than 130 posts, because an evangelical had posted something that included this line: Christians AND Mormons . . .

He was accused of anti-Mormonism (this was a secular site, mind you), and back and forth they went!

I broke in (pretty much ending the string) by saying:

1. Mormons are not Evangelical Christians

2. Mormons are not Fundamentalist Christians

3. Mormons sure ain't Catholic Christians

4. I think we're chipping the wall here. (icon of head banging against brick wall).

For many evangelicals, the term "cult" really means heterodox (i.e. you don't agree with us). It's not about fruit, but doctrine--teaching.

Another aside: I believe it was Barna that said roughly 34% of LDS would qualify as "born again" based on an evangelical definition, yet less than 1% would be evangelical.

So, you can relax about the mind-control thing. But, understand, your Christian friends strongly disagree with many doctrines you hold dear, and they do believe your adherence to these wrong beliefs are spiritually perilous. So, in trying to figure them out, focus on belief, not actions and sociology. Hope this helps.

[Maureen]

Here's another question. Why is it ok to have so many Christian denomination that disagree on all kinds of serious stuff like the importance of sacraments, and then say because we believe that God's attributes are a little different than they do that we're SO wrong, we're not even Christian? (whew!)

In Protestant denominations the main sacraments are Baptism and the Lord's Supper (Communion). I would say that the majority if not all, revere both with the same respect and importance.

M.

[phoenixbyrd]

what's up with this nonsense outside of Temple Square?

What happened outside temple sq?

As a former member of the church (by which I mean I am in the process of having my name removed from the records) I have never had any other Christian accuse me of such things or treat me any differently because i was a mormon. I have since discovered its not brainwashing they see, its indoctrination, and that I wholeheartedly agree with.

[Outshined]

What happened outside temple sq?

See the videos and photo essays HERE. They give most Christians a bad name.

[Gwen]

thanks for that link. i didn't know that went on. it's good to know, we were talking about taking some of our children out there to general conference in a year or so. maybe it will be better by then, and if not at least we will know what to expect. lol

[StrawberryFields]

thanks for that link. i didn't know that went on. it's good to know, we were talking about taking some of our children out there to general conference in a year or so. maybe it will be better by then, and if not at least we will know what to expect. lol

This has gone on here for years. As a member of the church I look at them with pity. I think don't you have something better to do. They take advantage of anytime when there might be heavy traffic downtown. They were there during the Olympics too. Holiday time when people go to Temple Square to see the lights is another time I have seen them.

[to_tall]

some group where i live were trying to forcefuly brake into the temple here a couple weeks ago O.o they had to call the police and stuff and like arrest people. when the church down the street was built the minister there had bunch of people protest at the local building i thought some guy was actually gunna hit me or something O.o. that was when i was 12 or 13 or so and wasnt quite the giant i am now, most people wouldnt try go get up in my face like that anymore

this is the official websters dictionary definition of what a cult is so technicaly every religion on the planet could be considered a cult, just something to through out there.

Main Entry: cult

Pronunciation: 'k&lt

Function: noun

Usage: often attributive

Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL

1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP

2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents

3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents

4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>

5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : the object of such devotion c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

[shanstress70]

Do you know I've been a memeber of the lds church now for about 34 yrs and lived in several different states and in all that time I've NEVER heard one bad thing about any other church from church teachers, authorities, etc. and very seldom from a private conversation with other members. It's actually kind of taboo.

I understand your frustration, and just to let you know, if I ever went to a church and they spouted anti-LDS talk (or other denomination, for that matter), I would not go back.

However, I have to say that I have heard several insults to other denom's from LDS members. Namely, they make fun of "passing the plate" and mock about the preacher saying, "dig a little deeper", etc, which I've honestly never heard from any preacher. I have to remind them that it's no different than tithing settlement. At least giving an offering via a plate is anonymous and is between you and the Lord.

I've also heard a lot of comments from LDS like, "I feel sorry for those who don't have the whole truth."

[Shade]

However, I have to say that I have heard several insults to other denom's from LDS members. Namely, they make fun of "passing the plate" and mock about the preacher saying, "dig a little deeper", etc, which I've honestly never heard from any preacher. I have to remind them that it's no different than tithing settlement. At least giving an offering via a plate is anonymous and is between you and the Lord.

I've also heard a lot of comments from LDS like, "I feel sorry for those who don't have the whole truth."

mind you, i've yet to see any 'mormons' actually demonstrating publicly against another religion. perhaps this does happen? anyone got any internet pictorial references of mormons protesting against other denominations? i should be very interested to see those.

something i have come to realise over the last few years of inactivity is that, of all the religions and denominations i have encountered - 'chritianity', judaism, islam, baptist, catholic, lds, buddhism, krishna, hindu, etc - the foundation of the LDS gospel and its higher laws and diversity of 'different' ways and teachings probably require a lot more faith if we are to believe and to follow them than any other i have thus far found.

but i'm still young.

and i DO feel sorry for those who do not possess the whole truth - myself included! i'm simply a work in progress...

[prisonchaplain]

This whole thing of being anti-other-religion, pro-your-own etc. is getting real dicey--especially as postmodernism continues to infuse and dominate the thinking of many. Doctrine becomes taboo--it's all about positive religious/spiritual journeying, and being loving and supporting of every individual path traveled, etc.

Within most religious traditions there is the sense that we've got something special that others are missing out on. That's okay--just don't talk about it too directly, seems to be the standard.

Now, to get real deep: Both LDS theology and practice and Pentecostalism bring positives to this spiritual environment. Your church has elements of mystery, liturgy and sacredness--especially in association with Temple observances. There are the higher levels, and yet all sincere practioners of religion and goodness garner respect.

Pentecostalism, with its strong experiential component, with its fervent prayers, with its emphasis on God's presence--also can appeal to those seeking something that's real, but not rigid, nor legalistic.

And yet, we both share perceived negatives too. Exclusivity (be it of Christianity in general, or the Restoration in particular, rankles most postmoderns.

...just some observations to stir up the mix a bit.

[LT04]

Not that I'm into quoting movies but... "I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I've seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of God" (-Kingdom of Heaven) I liked that one so much I wrote it down.

In the Bible, Book of Mormon, Torah and the Koran I kinda got that "we are right they are wrong" kinda thing going. In all of them it says God will solve that in the end. In none of them does it say we need to take that into our own hands.

-food for thought

[prisonchaplain]

L24, My guess is that all of them would call disciples to "contend for the gospel," to defend the Apostles' (Elders/prophets/sages etc.) teachings and traditions, etc. Sound teaching my not be everything, but it is surely important.

[a-train]

I see the whole matter as it always has been. Mankind continues to multiply various doctrines and fracture the people into ever increasing numbers of different opposing movements. Remember Babel? Well, we should continue to pray that our "language be not coufounded".

Think about how much of the misunderstanding between the LDS people and the world (and within the LDS people for that matter) is simply semantics. Semantics have been causing divisions since Babel. Even all they who speak the same language and share the same faith, misunderstand one another regularly.

I have seen some of the antis at LDS sites (both in Utah and here in Missouri) with signs and pamphlets shouting sermons or whatever, but we have to thank God this has not yet come to the same level as the sectarian disputes of Islam. They are blowing each other up with bombs! Kids, elderly, male, female, they are all targets.

Although we all work for peace, love, and the spreading of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we must understand that this will not be brought about peacefully or quietly. The Lord will continue to pour out war and division on the earth to stir us up to rememberance and repentance, and to ultimately destroy the kingdom of the devil. This will work out for the good of the faithful, and the destruction of the wicked.

Remember that the Lamanites were used by the Lord to humble the Nephites. The Gentiles have been humbling Israel since Jacob was raising his sons. If you fellow LDS are wondering why we have what little persecution or opposition we have, it's because we need to REPENT!!!!

That's right! Those men at Temple Square are calling us to repentance, and though they don't understand what we believe, they got this much right: "yall got some repentin' ta do!"

We have a lot to work on, and we better get to it.

-a-train

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'> What happened outside temple sq?

See the videos and photo essays HERE. They give most Christians a bad name.

WOW!!! They claim to follow Christ...where is the love of Christ? Sure didn't sound very "loving" to me.

thanks for that link. i didn't know that went on. it's good to know, we were talking about taking some of our children out there to general conference in a year or so. maybe it will be better by then, and if not at least we will know what to expect. lol

They do this at the Hill cumora Pagent, too.

[Jason]

They do it at the Manti pageant as well.

[cchrissys1]

1. we are christians. a christian is a follower of Jesus Christ. 2. Most people know us as mormons and think we beleve in strange books. and they either want to save us from our demise or don't want anything to do with it instead of knowing we are members of the true church having more testements of Christ. If i was an outsider i wouldn't want to join some sect either if i was actually looking for God. call Jesus's church by it's name it will help. will satan stir people up to prosicute us? ya if he can. you've gotto learn not to let it bother you. sounds like you don't have a real testimony about the church. You can gain one. when you can say you know you belong to the true church then you call things for what they really are and have the Lord help you solve problems like that.

[Guest AutumnBreez]

The picture on this topic: This man holding the sign is not a portrait of love but displays that of discontent.

A hardened heart. I don't recall ever reading about Jesus and his disciples going around with signs saying "your so bad can't you see it! You sinners!" No, because Christ was loving and gentle.

A pointing CULT sign will not make others see things his way. Others that are not LDS that see this either don't care, know a Mormon and know we are Christ believers and followers of his Gospel, or other Christians that may see how pitiful it is to bash. The energy that is out there is not Love.

Look at the boys in the suits. Arrow is pointing to them.

They may have been targeted, likely because they were dressed so nicely and this alone takes discipline from a teen. The man with sign does not show discipline. Lack of discipline in his actions speak loudly. I pray that he will soon find truth and be content with the Church.

This is my view from this side of the screen.

[a-train]

Perhaps Salt Lake could benefit from the return of the whistling whittlers.

-a-train

[SilkRose]

They protest, which is their right to freedom of speech. But, I live in an area, where I have seen missionaries stand outside of a catholic church that is frequented by tourists, same as temple square, and try to force pamphlets on parishoners. I have also witnessed a missionary spit in the "holy water" inside a catholic church and to which his companion told him it was time to leave and that was disrespectful. His response was: so what, they are the whore of babylon. I realize these are small individual situations, but it goes both ways. Just as you are not responsible for their actions and all LDS are not lumped in with their childish behavior, neither should all protestant/catholic/evangelical people be lumped with these few. LIVE AND LET LIVE

[Guest JLHyde]

Why do some protestant churches put soooo much time, money and energy into Mormon bashing? They think were a cult as in brain washed, lied to, blindly following a wicked money hungry Jim Jones kind of person. It really makes them look dumb to teach the things about us that they do at church because most of it is completely off! The thing is there are so many people that are attracted to that mud slinging mob mentality, it's creepy. I've even heard them claim they love mormon's and they want to help us out of evil way of thinking, when it's quite clear that they don't. (love is...KJV)

Here's another question. Why is it ok to have so many Christian denomination that disagree on all kinds of serious stuff like the importance of sacraments, and then say because we believe that God's attributes are a little different than they do that we're SO wrong, we're not even Christian? (whew!)

I know there's a lot about us they don't like. Thats ok. But the attitude is scary. And tuthfuly, they blame us of doing things I see much more in their churches than in the LDS church.

OK now I'm venting! My donation was refused twice by charities because I'm Mormon and I've been asked to leave a homeschool support group because I'm mormon not to mention (but I shall) the numerous slightly more subtle issues that come up socially and at work. And what's up with this nonsense outside of Temple Square? Is it any wonder we get defensive?

I don't mean to offend. It's just YEARS of frustration comming out here.

___________________

There is an old saying: "What goes around comes [back] around." And, so it is! You are "reaping" what other Mormons (if not yourself) have "sown".

You have to remember that one first has to look hard into the mirror, before you go and blame others for their nastiness towards you. If YOU have ever been obnoxious to (and not respectful of the intrinsic rights of) others, then you probably have next-to-nothing to complain about.

When was the last time you said, within your heart, "So-and-so probably left the Church because of sin." (Or, "all those who leave the Church have sinned, in some way, or other"). Someone else, here at this website, quoted that "prejudice [pre-judging] is the child of ignorance", with ignorance being the source of that "offspring".

LDS "ignorance" often gives rise to pre-judgmental (prejudiced) responses, when it comes to its own members, at least toward those leaving the flock. And, in your own community, you are experiencing what those "pariahs" in your Mormon neighborhoods feel, at the hands of LDS people.

(In short, you are now on the "other end of the stick".)

It sounds like you may be going through this, in order to teach you something about the hypocrisy, in your own church. (Whether or not you are deserving of such treatment: rarely are people deserving of such treatment, anyway...whatever side of the fence they live on.)

In the minds of those people who exclude you, it is you who are a monster: they have heard too many rumors that, at least in part, have turned out to be true, about Mormons!

LOVE YOUR ENEMIES.

(Love, and not curse!)

[Teancum18]

Well, if I could quote ever thread in this post, I would. Some really interesting posts and points of views. Personally, I think JLHyde could have been a little more subtle. Oh well, he's banned.

I served my mission in Las Vegas. I remember one day a Baptist minister came to our door and went to town on my companion and I. I don't remember too much about it because it was not a pretty scene. He got heated, I got heated and we both got our kicks in (ergo... I am just as much to blame as he is). Anyway, we got on the topic of "how to know truth from God." I told him about the scriptures in John and about how the spirit bears witness. This is what he said to me, "Why should I believe the Holy Ghost telling me the Book of Mormon is true?"

I was so completely dumbfounded. I didn't even know what to say. And I was already so mad because of his hits below the belt (not that I wasn't dishing them out either, because I was). So I asked, "What do you want or need to know that the Book of Mormon is true?"

He said to me, "Show me a sign... give me a SIGN!! I want to see something real for myself."

I knew that anything I could try to teach him was useless. Here he was claiming to be a minister, yet he can't even understand the basic teachings of Christ about the Holy Ghost in the New Testament. (So much for his version, "Words of Christ in Red.") ----> See, I'm doing it again! Anyway, I knew if he didn't understand the doctrine from his own ministry, or wasn't willing to accept it, there was nothing I was going to do to change that. So I just said to him, "Do you know what the Bible says about people who seek after a sign?"

To my absolute astonishment, he said, "What!?"

"It says a wicked and adulturous generation seeketh after a sign."

The way he puffed, the way his shoulders bounced, the red in his face; I can't believe he did not hit me. (Not saying he would... I truly don't believe he was that kind of man. But he was that mad and it was beyond evident.) He said to me, "I love my wife! In fact, I am late to pick her up."

He left and it was over. I do appreciate the words of PrisonChaplin. I do believe that what he said about the mindset of ministers from other religions was completely true. About how they sincerely believe they are trying to save us from damnation. However, I wish there was a better way to communicate without the contention that Baptist and I experienced. It got really nasty a couple times and it lasted a long time (about an hour and a half). I contributed to it just as much as he did. I was throwing in my kicks and raising my voice just as much. That is partly what saddens me about the whole experience.

Since that day, I have never conversed with a member of another Christian (non)denomination in any manner resembling the one I did that day. I have had two encounters since then and both times, I steered the conversation away from myself and our doctrine. I used those opportunities to learn more about the beliefs and personal convictions in Christ the people I was talking to had. While I may not have agreed with some of them, I found peace and pleasure in just hearing them and that we weren't fighting. I would always support them and praise them in their beliefs. Interestingly enough, I found at the end of both conversations that both guys would say something to the effect of, "Hey, we're both just trying to belief in something good and lead good lives. That's all that matters." (Greatly paraphrasing both)

I am grateful for those experiences because I was deeply saddened by the one on my mission. I just don't believe that any God would want his children talking to each other the way that Baptist minister and I were.

I hope everybody gets something out of that story. Regardless of what any of you believe, know that Teancum18 wishes the best for you in my prayers -- whatever God's "best" for you is. It's His will; not ours.

[AnthonyB]

I can't help think that the postestors shown in this thread are incredibly uncreative people. Nobody particularly likes being protested against or having their beliefs and traditions mocked. Surely the first message any Christian should communicate is the love of Christ. (The odd bannerman with John 3:16 comes to mind, I love the Steve Taylor humorous tribute to them.)

Why not set up a hot chocolate stand (clearly setting up a coffee stand would work in most places but probably not in Utah) and offer people free hot chocolate or postsum. (Or a BBQ or hot-dogs). As Dale Carnegie pointed out long ago, people are much more receptive to your message if your nice to them first. Never force a message on someone but always be ready to share what you beleive if they enquire.

Learn some skits that protray the gospel and give people some entertainment and at the end announce that your fellow Christians and if their interested in your take on the gospel their welcome to speak to you.

Organize with a car park near the event to wash cars for free and give people a flyer about why your doing it.

As you can probably see I'm not the most creative person but even someone as uncreative as me can see that their are much better ways to proclaim the gospel, then holding up placards, shouting at people and shoving tracts in their hands.