The effect of the veil on personality.

[Seminarysnoozer]

What is your perspective of the effect of the veil on one's "spirit self" being revealed in this life? How much of our pre-mortal personal development is (temporarily) erased while under the veil? Most? - Very little?

If a person were to have all of their life's growing experiences erased from their mind as to not benefit from any teaching they may have received to that point (similar to what happens in someone who is severely demented) would their personality be considered the same as when have access to all their past memories. In other words, isn't it true that who we are now is, at least in part, the sum of all of our past learning line upon line. I would think that this would affect things like our "likes and dislikes", the way we talk, what we find pleasurable and things we find repulsive, our skills and talents etc.

If all of that was erased as an effect of the veil, in terms of our developing experiences, we cannot remember them, then that would change also how developed our spirit is as we enter this life. We could not benefit from some learning that we cannot remember. If that is the case, wouldn't it be that our spirit personality would not necessarily shine through while under the effects of the veil.

Just as a simple example, what if a person developed a talent or liking for music in the pre-mortal world (if such a thing was possible). Under the veil of forgetfulness and memory of those experiences being not available, wouldn't that make it so that trait could not shine through in this life, unless of course it was reformed while here?

But if we take that one example as a trait that would have to be reformed while here, there would be no way that we could reproduce our total personality, traits and talents while here for such a short time in a less than Celestial learning atmosphere that was accomplished over thousands of years in the presence of God. In other words, our personality as a result of the veil would seemingly make us, temporarily, different than our true selves.

All of this depends on how strong a person thinks the veil is. When people have amnesia for example, it is not a complete loss of memory, they can still talk for example, they didn't forget that experience. Even when we call it "total amnesia" a person can still speak typically. The only setting in which someone looses pretty much every past experience is that of severe dementia. And I think anyone who has been around someone with dementia would say that their personality has changed, they don't act like themselves. They not only loose factual memory but also executive function (how to act). If the veil does that kind of thing to our spirit, I think it is important from a gospel doctrine and plan of salvation standpoint to realize that our spirits would have also lost the "how to act" aspect if there really is complete forgetfulness.

So, this really makes me wonder whether the forgetfulness is complete, which I doubt. But even if it is not complete, it has to be quite severe and with it would come a "quite severe" change to our personality, even if it is not a 100% forgetfulness.

President Monson said “How grateful we should be that a wise Creator fashioned an earth and placed us here, with a veil of forgetfulness of our previous existence so that we might experience a time of testing, an opportunity to prove ourselves in order to qualify for all that God has prepared for us to receive.”

And President Eyring; “Before we were born, we knew God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, personally. We could see Them and listen to Them as They taught and encouraged us. Now a veil has been placed over our minds and memories. Satan, the father of lies, has an advantage because we must see the reality of who we are through the eyes of faith, while our bodies make us subject to carnal temptation and to physical weakness.” and "It won’t be easy to remember. Living as we do with a veil over our eyes, we cannot remember what it was like to be with our Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, in the premortal world; nor can we see with our physical eyes or with reason alone the hand of God in our lives. Seeing such things takes the Holy Ghost. And it is not easy to be worthy of the Holy Ghost’s companionship in a wicked world.

That is why forgetting God has been such a persistent problem among His children since the world began. Think of the times of Moses, when God provided manna and in miraculous and visible ways led and protected His children. Still, the prophet warned the people who had been so blessed, as prophets always have warned and always will: “Take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life.”3

And the challenge to remember has always been the hardest for those who are blessed abundantly. Those who are faithful to God are protected and prospered. That comes as the result of serving God and keeping His commandments. But with those blessings comes the temptation to forget their source. It is easy to begin to feel the blessings were granted not by a loving God on whom we depend but by our own powers."

In summary, it seems the reason the veil is needed for the test is that it creates a situation in which it is difficult to think or remember that who we currently are, in terms of our traits and talents and personalities, are things that are given, and likely does not directly reflect our real self in a specific or outwardly expressed measurable way and especially not linear way as the intrinsic properties of "self" have been covered by the veil. It is easier to give credit to God and remain in humility when we realize that our current set of what we call "self" is a temporary stewardship and not the "real self" covered by the veil. If one thinks they are a great musician or a great scientist or even a spiritual rock or a great orator etc. because that is their "spirit self", they may want to ponder really what the veil does to the "spirit self" and the reason it is being done - to create this test of pride; is it me or is it just my temporary stewardship. The prideful thought is, 'I am able to do the things I do because this is who I am' as opposed to 'I am able to do the things I do because this is what God gave me as a set of temporary talents for this test'. Of course, this is not an all or nothing situation. I think some of our "spirit self" comes through and more so when we are faithful and can in essence 'thin the veil'. And, of course, their are helps as to understand those real spiritual traits such as the patriarchal blessing and the promptings of the Holy Ghost. This would be consistent with the way that those that are low will be made high, etc. Even for the most faithful though, the percentage of "real self" revealed in this life must be a very tiny portion of ALL the things learned in the thousands if not millions of pre-mortal personality development years. Those that learn to love the 'temporary self' which is part of the treasures of this world, will struggle with their lost identity, their lost inheritance based in faith of who they really are.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Seminarysnoozer

[mikbone]

D&C 130:18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.

It makes sense to me that we get to keep the benefits of our labors thru each testing period. So yes I believe that personality, intelligence, habits, etc.., pass from test to test.

Finally, any parent with multiple children (I have 10 btw), recognizes that personality is inborn.

[annewandering]

I have seen a person, not going to say who, with mpd/did. When they switch sometimes no one wants to take over, because of stress. What happens then is a person comes out that is devoid of memories but usually can speak.

The point I want to make is that this person is pure in that they seem to have had no influence of the life environment or experience. They are what would be without the traumas they have endured.

It is a very interesting experience. For me, it confirmed that we are who we are when we are born but the things that we go through do make changes. Sometimes I think we spend a lot of time trying to find that base again with the spirit in control and not our carnal influences.

[Sharky]

Finally, any parent with multiple children (I have 10 btw), recognizes that personality is inborn.

While personality is inborn, aspects of the personality are impacted, even changed or altered, by the environment one develops and grows in.

The inborn personality is the basis; however, persoanlity continues to develop & form over the course of the first few "formative" years.

Even later in life we can witness changes in ones personality.

I recall one time being told that I had become a totally different person, that I had been quiet & hung back but suddenly started "smiling", became "fun", was more "engaging".

I was in my later 20s at the time.

What had changed?

I didn't have to think long about it. I had turned my life back towards God. I had started going to church again, began to earnestly study the scriptures, saying prayers & opening that line of communication. I felt & had more confidence & while I hadn't noticed it, that confidence resulted in different personality aspects coming forth, personality aspects that I don't believe had ever been menifested previously in my life.

I can't fathom what things would be like if we had all the knowledge of things today that we had in the pre-existance.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Sharky

[Seminarysnoozer]

D&C 130:18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.

It makes sense to me that we get to keep the benefits of our labors thru each testing period. So yes I believe that personality, intelligence, habits, etc.., pass from test to test.

Finally, any parent with multiple children (I have 10 btw), recognizes that personality is inborn.

Sure, outside of the effects of the veil we will return to our prior level of understanding and if there are additional areas of growth, 'principles of intelligence we attain', beyond what was attained previously then they will stick with us. I would think that most would agree that 'rising with us in the resurrection' places that situation outside the effects of the veil. My questions were focused specifically on the effects of the veil, our current situation. D&C 130:88 speaks of conditions outside the effects of the veil.

As President Monson's quote explains in one sentence, we have this forgetfulness so that we might undergo a period of testing. It becomes necessary to the test to not be able to express our true self, at least to some degree. Again, the questions were pertaining to 'what degree' is our true self squelched by the veil. How many of "life's lessons" that would have developed your character do you remember from our pre-mortal life?

If the testing situation is created by the alteration of memory, then it would seemingly be a test of which has to be done with an altered character. I guess the questions pertain to 'how much are we altered'. At an extreme end, I think you would agree that a person who has Down's syndrome has had their traits altered in mortality.

Your last sentence says nothing as to where those personalities come from. How do you know that those differences amongst children are not all related to their genetic, DNA encoded differences and the physical wiring of the brain? The wiring of the brain which drives "personality" is well underway by about the 8th week of gestation. I am not sure how you could separate what is coming from the spirit versus the body in our current dual being status other than to know that we are told that we have had our spiritual development memory squelched by the veil. In fact it is so squelched by the veil that we have no memory as to those lessons learned in pre-mortality. And we know that the spirit is quiet as to its influence whereas the natural man is the default presentation.

The closest clue to the variability maintained from spiritual influences would be by comparing the personalities of identical twins (concordant monozygoctic twins). Even then the genetic make up of those individuals is not really identical as there is some post zygotic changes to DNA as well as local environmental factors and random variables that can change the brain's wiring (phenotypic expression) etc.

So at best we might be able to say that the degree to which identical twins (monozygotic twins) who grow up in the same environmental conditions differ in personality might be the relative influence of the spirit on personality in this life. So, if we say that identical twins are 10% different in their personalities (which I think would be a very generous estimate as many discordant studies amongst monozygotic twins show a much higher rate of variability just with even looking at a single type of post-zygotic DNA change such as copy number variations), that would be the most measurable difference in personality change we could see from other than physical, brain anatomy and environmental influence. But again, that is not a perfect measurement because of post zygotic changes to DNA and variable phenotypes from the same gene.

[mikbone]

I believe that the veil erases memories, not character.

Moses 5:24, Abr 3:23

Thoses people with brain damage have altered tests.

Character, personality, etc. comes from our true selves, our soul. The soul is the combination of our spirit with the body. It is my personal belief that our physical brain communicates with our spiritual brain.

Your argument suggests that personality is a function of 'brain wiring'. I don't see it that way.

You may perceive the brain as a complex hard drive. I think of it as a connection to our real, or spiritual brain.

I'll try to make analogy to help you see my point.

The new large telescopes that we currently employ do not even have the ability to allow a person to view an image through glass directly onto the retina. Why? Because our eyes are very limited in perception. We only see in snapshots of visible light. Instruments can see in entire electromagnetic wavelength, infrared, ultraviolet, x-ray, gamma ray, etc. With this new perception we have discovered so much more about our universe.

Neuroscientist, psychologist etc. are like people looking through a spyglass. They can only study a limited portion of the brain. Thus they have come up with concepts like subconscious, ego, superego, etc.

So citing current studies about genetics or neuropsych don't really have any relavence to this topic in my opinion.

Our souls are infinitely more complex than a collection of electrical impulses.

Edited September 7, 2012 by mikbone

[Traveler]

I believe the veil has an initial effect that may or not be somewhat overcome during our mortal existence. I believe that human capacity is underdeveloped for the most part.

. Over 50% of the genius in the USA is never discovered or recognized in our educational system.

. Many individuals do not discover their abilities and talents until they are over 40. It is interesting that the highest success rate in business is among a segment of our population that changes their life’s direction after the age of 40.

. There is an interesting term in scripture, “awake”. I believe this is in connection to individuals becoming better aware of who they are.

. The first purpose of traditional eastern meditation is to become self aware. This is also known as a spiritual awakening.

I believe that we begin anew in this life and that we can enjoy a process of awakening during our entire mortal journey. The concept that we are here relearning has been for me a process of awakening. But I have learned that others may are may not have similar experiences of awakening - I cannot account for what others find as they journey through mortality - but I can account for mine. And those, if any, that are seeking as I - are so welcome to experience their journey with me as long as they wish.

The Traveler

[Anddenex]

I think this question is similar to the continued debate of "Nature v. Nurture", yet it adds another element, our pre-mortal existence and the knowledge we obtained there.

Within the Book of Abraham we are taught that God designated noble and great ones, and said that these he would make rulers.

If we didn't maintain anything from our pre-mortal experience, I think then this verse would be moot. How , and why, would our pre-mortal experience designate "noble and great ones" if these noble and great ones lost everything as a result of the veil.

I like the idea Traveler presents regarding an "awakening".

My personal belief, God at times reveals who we are via personal visions, it is whether or not we are willing to accept these visions via faith. It may be a simple premonition, within your own mind, emphasizing a characteristic you didn't realize you had, but will learn again.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe that the veil erases memories, not character.

Moses 5:24, Abr 3:23

Thoses people with brain damage have altered tests.

Character, personality, etc. comes from our true selves, our soul. The soul is the combination of our spirit with the body. It is my personal belief that our physical brain communicates with our spiritual brain.

Your argument suggests that personality is a function of 'brain wiring'. I don't see it that way.

You may perceive the brain as a complex hard drive. I think of it as a connection to our real, or spiritual brain.

I'll try to make analogy to help you see my point.

The new large telescopes that we currently employ do not even have the ability to allow a person to view an image through glass directly onto the retina. Why? Because our eyes are very limited in perception. We only see in snapshots of visible light. Instruments can see in entire electromagnetic wavelength, infrared, ultraviolet, x-ray, gamma ray, etc. With this new perception we have discovered so much more about our universe.

Neuroscientist, psychologist etc. are like people looking through a spyglass. They can only study a limited portion of the brain. Thus they have come up with concepts like subconscious, ego, superego, etc.

So citing current studies about genetics or neuropsych don't really have any relavence to this topic in my opinion.

Our souls are infinitely more complex than a collection of electrical impulses.

You have contradicted yourself in the bold.

If on one hand you say the soul is the combination of the body and the spirit, then what you are saying is that a part of the soul comes from the spirit and a part of the soul comes from the body. The contribution to the soul from the body is not zero, in other words, body + spirit >spirit. And soul - spirit > 0.

My suggestions related to the opening questions were related to the relative contribution from those two entities while under the influence of the veil. I was not suggesting that there is no spiritual influence but that the spirit influence on character is not the only influence. I don't perceive the brain as a complex hard drive like you think I do. I see the brain as a physical brain which is in the image of the spiritual brain but with a separate nature, and so we have two natures. Is the spirit self shining through like an overwhelming beacon or is the light of Christ, that spiritual influence small?

If one ignores the influence of the brain on our character and as Ballard says it the "foundation of our character", then one is missing out on a very unique and important aspect of our gospel. That is to become like God we need a body as it changes who we are. It doesn't just change what we can do and what we can experience, it is not just a tool. It changes who we are, we are more like God with a body. This is a fundamental aspect of our gospel. This is stated clearly by Prophets; I don't have to quote any scientific information to make that statement (even though I am surprised that a man of science such as yourself is stuck on outdated terms such as ego and superego). David O. McKay and President Kimball as well as others have taught that we are dual beings, meaning we have a physical self and a spirit self, a physical body and a spirit body, a physical nature and a spirit nature. They are not stating that we have a single being nature that is extended through a physical tool or instrument but that we have two opposing natures.

__________________

This is not my concept, here it is if you don't believe me. This is from LDS.org Titled "A continuing series examining doctrines unique to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

"For centuries philosophers and theologians have debated the question of human nature. Over the years three general philosophies have taken center stage: that people are basically good, that they are fundamentally evil, and that they are neutral (a blank slate to be written upon). We can be thankful that the restored gospel of Jesus Christ reveals the true nature of man and gives purpose, meaning, and direction to life’s challenge of putting off “the natural man” (Mosiah 3:19).

A Dual Nature

Because of the Fall of Adam and Eve “all mankind became a lost and fallen people” (Alma 12:22). King Benjamin taught that fallen man or “the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord” (Mosiah 3:19).

President David O. McKay (1873–1970) taught that because of the Fall we have a dual nature: “One, related to the earthly or animal life; the other, akin to the Divine. Whether a man remains satisfied within what we designate the animal world, satisfied with what the animal world will give him, yielding without effort to the whims of his appetites and passions and slipping farther and farther into the realm of indulgence, or whether, through self-mastery, he rises toward intellectual, moral, and spiritual enjoyments depends upon the kind of choice he makes every day, nay, every hour of his life.” 1

Our spirits come from the presence of God, and “every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning” (D&C 93:38). Our physical bodies are also gifts from God. One reason we wanted to come to this earth was to become more like our Heavenly Father, who has a physical body. Consequently, one of our challenges in mortality is to learn how to manage, care for, and use our bodies properly. If we can govern the natural tendencies of the flesh, we will rise toward the kind of spiritual life President McKay described. But if we let “the natural man” govern, we will find ourselves at enmity with God and His purposes (see Mosiah 3:19).

The Battle

Elder Melvin J. Ballard (1873–1939) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles taught that “all the assaults that the enemy of our souls will make to capture us will be through the flesh, because it is made up of the unredeemed earth, and he has power over the elements of the earth. The approach he makes to us will be through the lusts, the appetites, the ambitions of the flesh. All the help that comes to us from the Lord to aid us in this struggle will come to us through the spirit that dwells within this mortal body. So these two mighty forces are operating upon us through these two channels.

“… If you would have a strong spirit which has dominance over the body, you must see to it that your spirit receives spiritual food and spiritual exercise. …

“The man or woman who is taking neither spiritual food nor spiritual exercise will presently become a spiritual weakling, and the flesh will be master. Whoever therefore is obtaining both spiritual food and exercise will be in control over this body and will keep it subject unto the will of God.” 2

Elder Ballard identified several forms of spiritual food and exercise: praying, partaking of the sacrament, and serving one another. The scriptures and the prophets remind us of others, such as attending Sabbath meetings, serving in the temple, and studying the scriptures.

Changing Our Nature

Spiritual food and exercise can strengthen us in our quest to govern the body, but this endeavor becomes much easier if the body can be sanctified from its corrupt, or “natural,” state (see Moro. 10:32–33)."

____________

How can the flesh be master unless it has the ability to master? A pair of scissors can't cut by itself. Instruments that can see waveforms that cannot be picked up by the retina, to use the object of your example, cannot operate on their own. The flesh can initiate and drive its own thus it has the ability to be a master even over the spirit in this life. The brain has the ability to form and drive many aspects of what we call personality, this is a fact that is, in my opinion, ridiculous to argue against like trying to argue that dinosaur bones don't exist. The question is, as explained above by LDS.org, to what degree does the spirit versus the physical self drive our thoughts? The question was never, one or the other like many religious philosophers try to tackle, are we intrinsically good or intrinsically bad. We are both in this life, we are dual beings. How much of one or the other is what the whole test is about. If our thoughts are 100% driven by our spirit, then I don't see how this second estate test would be any different than our first estate test. Our 100% spirit driven passions have already been tested. We all here have already been found innocent in that regard as that is what is required to pass the first estate.

When a person has an erotic dream about an affair with a co-worker, was that the spirit that made up that thought and "experienced" passion or was it the brain? If the brain is not capable of generating these things during a time of unconsciousness then I guess the spirit would be held responsible for such dreams. (I don't see it that way) When I am hungry during fast and testimony meeting, is that my spirit with unrighteous desires or is that my brain trying to force its drives onto the stage? When the apostles felt overwhelming desire to sleep in the Garden of Gethsemane was that the spirit or the flesh driving that characteristic?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think this question is similar to the continued debate of "Nature v. Nurture", yet it adds another element, our pre-mortal existence and the knowledge we obtained there.

Within the Book of Abraham we are taught that God designated noble and great ones, and said that these he would make rulers.

If we didn't maintain anything from our pre-mortal experience, I think then this verse would be moot. How , and why, would our pre-mortal experience designate "noble and great ones" if these noble and great ones lost everything as a result of the veil.

I like the idea Traveler presents regarding an "awakening".

My personal belief, God at times reveals who we are via personal visions, it is whether or not we are willing to accept these visions via faith. It may be a simple premonition, within your own mind, emphasizing a characteristic you didn't realize you had, but will learn again.

I think "Nature versus Nurture" is a different argument. Nature is the genetic blueprint and the hard wiring of the brain that a person is born with, such as DNA driven functions. Nurture refers to how those basic functions and abilities are either used or ignored by the reinforcement of the effect of associations, both positive and negative, to specific behaviors, making those neuronal pathways stronger or weaker compared to alternative circuitry. In other words, they both have to do with the physical aspect of our brain.

LDS believe in another entity outside of Nature and Nurture which is the spirit. Now the spirit might be the source of some of the nurture, I don't deny that. But the discussion of Nature and Nurture both pertain to physical characteristics and expressions.

If we are talking about changes in spiritual make up we say things like "change of heart" or desires of the heart or spiritual learning.

For example, if an orphan is isolated in a crib in a large orphanage and gets very little human contact before the age of 3, that child can develop an attachment disorder which amongst many things can make it so that person has a hard time empathizing with others and showing compassion towards others. The "Nurture" of this child resulted in changes in the personality aspects of that persons brain but in no way does this say that that person's spirit was thus affected. And it is not because the person was naturally prone to that disposition by genetic make up. That might be that individual's 'thorn in the flesh' and the degree to which that person's spirit fights against that effect of nurture, whether they can do it successfully or not or simply endure, will be judged by God who knows all the variables and what is given by Nature versus Nurture versus spiritual influence. The test we face is not over nature versus nurture but Nature and Nurture versus spiritual influences.

[C_T_R]

Great topic; great posts, seminarysnoozer. I really have nothing to add other than what I believe has been either said or implied here that the more we give in to our "natural" side, the stronger that side becomes, and vice versa. D&C 20:22 also, I think, ties in with the many examples you gave of the reality of our dual natures: (speaking of Christ) " 22 He suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them." And Christ was perfect.. but the mortal part of his existence on earth subjected him to temptation of the flesh.

Anyway, carry on. :)

[Anddenex]

I think "Nature versus Nurture" is a different argument. Nature is the genetic blueprint and the hard wiring of the brain that a person is born with, such as DNA driven functions. Nurture refers to how those basic functions and abilities are either used or ignored by the reinforcement of the effect of associations, both positive and negative, to specific behaviors, making those neuronal pathways stronger or weaker compared to alternative circuitry. In other words, they both have to do with the physical aspect of our brain.

LDS believe in another entity outside of Nature and Nurture which is the spirit. Now the spirit might be the source of some of the nurture, I don't deny that. But the discussion of Nature and Nurture both pertain to physical characteristics and expressions.

If we are talking about changes in spiritual make up we say things like "change of heart" or desires of the heart or spiritual learning.

For example, if an orphan is isolated in a crib in a large orphanage and gets very little human contact before the age of 3, that child can develop an attachment disorder which amongst many things can make it so that person has a hard time empathizing with others and showing compassion towards others. The "Nurture" of this child resulted in changes in the personality aspects of that persons brain but in no way does this say that that person's spirit was thus affected. And it is not because the person was naturally prone to that disposition by genetic make up. That might be that individual's 'thorn in the flesh' and the degree to which that person's spirit fights against that effect of nurture, whether they can do it successfully or not or simply endure, will be judged by God who knows all the variables and what is given by Nature versus Nurture versus spiritual influence. The test we face is not over nature versus nurture but Nature and Nurture versus spiritual influences.

Thank you for the response Seminarysnoozer.

It appears I need to clarify my statement pertaining to the similarity of your question and the debate of "Nature verses Nurture".

The similarity I mentioned had very little to do with the physical or genetic connection. The similarity is that your question can easily be debated until the end of time, or until we stand before God and someone will always be able to provide evidence or proof for their belief, or to the contrary of another's personal view and opinion over the subject matter.

It was a great explanation however regarding "Nature" and "Nurture" which I am familiar with.

"If we are talking about changes in spiritual make up we say things like "change of heart" or desires of the heart or spiritual learning."

I would, however, disagree with this statement, even when talking about changes in the spiritual make up, for example, repentance, not only is it a change of heart, it is a change of heart and mind.

=-=]

\

Edited September 8, 2012 by Anddenex

[Seminarysnoozer]

Thank you for the response Seminarysnoozer.

It appears I need to clarify my statement pertaining to the similarity of your question and the debate of "Nature verses Nurture".

The similarity I mentioned had very little to do with the physical or genetic connection. The similarity is that your question can easily be debated until the end of time, or until we stand before God and someone will always be able to provide evidence or proof for their belief, or to the contrary of another's personal view and opinion over the subject matter.

It was a great explanation however regarding "Nature" and "Nurture" which I am familiar with.

"If we are talking about changes in spiritual make up we say things like "change of heart" or desires of the heart or spiritual learning."

I would, however, disagree with this statement, even when talking about changes in the spiritual make up, for example, repentance, not only is it a change of heart, it is a change of heart and mind.

=-=]

\

Thanks. I appreciate your response. I agree with you, realize I have a degree in Neuroscience so to me "heart" and mind are pretty close anyways. I think 'heart' is an attempt to separate the spiritual component of the sum total of the "mind" which may be both physical brain and spirit input. At least it is hard to differentiate what comes from the two inputs. Heart more clearly is separating the spiritual input. Although it depends on the context, such as a prize fighter who has 'heart', etc.