"inherit all"

[Seminarysnoozer]

I wanted to see if I was on the 'same page' as most when it comes to the definition of "inherit" and "all" (in reference to inheritance) as described in scripture and gospel teaching.

Definition of "inherit" could mean; "a. To receive (property or a title, for example) from an ancestor by legal succession or will.

b. To receive by bequest or as a legacy.

2. To receive or take over from a predecessor: The new administration inherited the economic problems of the last four years.

3. Biology To receive (a characteristic) from one's parents by genetic transmission.

4. To gain (something) as one's right or portion.

v.intr.

To hold or take possession of an inheritance."

I think most would agree that whatever the definition as above it includes receiving something that was not made or produced by one self. Is that not how we see eternal inheritance? It certainly could include some parameters of "earning" in terms of qualifying for it but at that moment of receiving it, it is not something that the person produced on their own.

It seems silly to put a definition of "all" but just as a reference for discussion: "1. Being or representing the entire or total number, amount, or quantity

2. Constituting, being, or representing the total extent or the whole:"

D&C 84:38 "And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him."

Revelations 21:7 " 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."

D&C 101: 32-35 " 32 Yea, verily I say unto you, in that day when the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things—

33 Things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof—

34 Things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven.

35 And all they who suffer persecution for my name, and endure in faith, though they are called to lay down their lives for my sake yet shall they partake of all this glory."

D&C 132: 20 " 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them."

And in Gospel Principles Chapter 47; "Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1.They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:62).

2.They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23).

3.They will be united eternally with their righteous family members and will be able to have eternal increase.

4.They will receive a fulness of joy.

5.They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20). "

-----

In light of all that, and the definitions of "inherit" and "all", does a person who enters the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom also inherit God's experience? Or is that not included in the "all"? Christ has shown that it is possible to experience things that happen to others, is this not what happened in the Garden of Gethsemane? I would think that the way to inherit everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have would be to have the same experience they have, but couch that again in what is meant be "inherit". Inherit, by definition, is to receive something that was not earned or made or produced by the individual but is something passed on, either biologically or as a gift. Do we really believe that we will "inherit all" that God and Christ have, or just parts?

Edited September 10, 2012 by Seminarysnoozer

[Traveler]

I think the concept is intended to be simple and not complex. In essence anything that G-d is capable or able is not withheld from those that inherit all.

I do not think so much that such things are automatically given or obtained without any additional effort as much as possible and an extension of the doctrine that all blessings are predicated on principles of obedience (or discipline).

The Traveler

[mikbone]

Revelations 21:7 " 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."

does a person who enters the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom also inherit God's experience?

I would suggest that in order for one to have God's experience, one would have to pass through a similar experience. Perhaps that is what we have to overcome...

D&C 75:16, 22; D&C 76: 60

[Seminarysnoozer]

I would suggest that in order for one to have God's experience, one would have to pass through a similar experience. Perhaps that is what we have to overcome...

D&C 75:16, 22; D&C 76: 60

Thanks,

I am okay with that but it makes me wonder what the word "inherited" means then. Or even the "gift" of Eternal life. Specifically, how would you include the definition of "inherited" into what you posted ... to overcome it yourself some day. Then what is "inherited"? That seems like nothing is inherited, except maybe an opportunity to do it yourself. When someone inherits "all that has passed" it is by doing it on their own? They have to figure out how to smash atoms together (or whatever bit of knowledge and experience is obtained) etc, without simply being told how it is done? If that is the case then I am not sure where faith is required. Faith is required to accept something offered as a gift. Whereas if someone were to work out their own knowledge it is simply trial and error, no faith in anyone is required.

If God passed through a similar experience in which He "inherited" all that came before Him, then any one of us could also receive that opportunity by way of inheriting all that Christ has which is all that the Father has.

The imagery of the scripture you gave even, " 16 And he who is faithful shall overcome all things, and shall be lifted up at the last day." is one of being "lifted" and upon the requirement of being faithful we will overcome all things, through Christ, of course. I think this is what is meant by being saved in Christ. Christ is our mediator to overcome the world. If He overcomes it for me, what is left for me to overcome after that? I think of Christ as the finisher of our faith.

What specifically is "inherited" by those that make it into the Celestial Kingdom?

[mikbone]

Specifically, how would you include the definition of "inherited" into what you posted ... to overcome it yourself some day. Then what is "inherited"?

Hypothetically lets say I own a sausage factory. I'm about to retire and I want my son to take over the business.

If he has no experience with running a sausage factory how do you think the business will do?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Hypothetically lets say I own a sausage factory. I'm about to retire and I want my son to take over the business.

If he has no experience with running a sausage factory how do you think the business will do?

It probably depends on if you have required him to pass certain tests (similar to passing the first estate and second estate tests) to know that he is capable of doing such a thing.

This is why I posed the question about inheritable experience. We don't know the 'how' but we do believe that Jesus was able to pay for the sins of the world by taking them on in an experiential way. Is the only way to know how something occurs is by experiencing it oneself.

How does the all knowing God know what it is like to give birth then?

[mikbone]

It probably depends on if you have required him to pass certain tests (similar to passing the first estate and second estate tests) to know that he is capable of doing such a thing.

Or perhaps ever further testing...

This is why I posed the question about inheritable experience. We don't know the 'how' but we do believe that Jesus was able to pay for the sins of the world by taking them on in an experiential way.

I don't believe in inheritable experience.

I also don't want to get into a debate about what Christ did in Gethsemane and on the Cross because we just don't know, but...

The Atonement allows Christ to make it as if our sins NEVER occurred, after we go through the steps of repentance. Man cannot be saved in their sins. If you think about the difference between the concept of paying for our sins versus making it as if our sins never occurred. The difference is vast.

The Atonement was infinite. Trying to put a quantity of pain or sin that He experienced during that trial is irrational.

Is the only way to know how something occurs is by experiencing it oneself?

My past experience has let me to believe so.

How does the all knowing God know what it is like to give birth then?

Dunno. Maybe He dosen't. She must. I am sure that they are a very close couple and that God is perfectly empathic though...

[Seminarysnoozer]

I don't believe in inheritable experience.

I am sure that they are a very close couple and that God is perfectly empathic though...

Thanks again for your responses.

What is "perfectly empathic" mean?

Empathy means "1. the power of understanding and imaginatively entering into another person's feelings "

I suppose if that was "perfect" it would be as if the person experienced it themselves, or at least as valuable. I think that is what I was getting at.

When you study a textbook, you have, in essence, inherited experience. When you went through anatomy class, you didn't have to work through all the steps that allowed them to understand the structures as well as they do with their various functions. Yes, you had to learn those facts for yourself but you benefited from their previous experience and made it your own without having to repeat all the process that allowed the passing on of information to you. So, by studying anatomy you have inherited a vast amount of experience. If we didn't inherit knowledge from our parents, our families, teachers etc. we all still be way back in the stone age. Even from the early ages of 3 to 6 months a child is starting to inherit the inclinations and sounds of the particular language they are exposed to, the purpose of a baby babbling. Without those inherited exposures early on the child is forever behind in their development and sometimes permanently so such as those that have attachment disorders.

I think you are discounting all that was given to you by suggesting that the only way to know something is to experience it yourself. You did not experience the making of the English Language. You did not invent a car or a stethoscope, or the computer we are using now. Most things that you know are not things that you developed on your own, they are inherited pieces of knowledge that you accepted on the principles of faith and trust with a parent or teacher etc. Yes you may have confirmed those things via experience but your knowledge base is 99.9999% given to you. And if you don't take that as enough, I believe Alma said it, we should continually give thanks for all we have and Kimball specified, this includes your body and your brain.

Spencer W. Kimball : "“Why should we pray? Because we are the sons and daughters of our Heavenly Father, on whom we depend for everything we enjoy—our food and clothing, our health, our life itself, our sight and hearing, our voices, our locomotion, even our brains.

Do you not realize your dependence as you stand in perfect health with your opportunities? Do you think that they are of your providing? Do you give to yourself your breath, your life, your being? Can you lengthen your days by .a single hour? Are you so strong without the gifts of heaven? Are your brains made by self, and did you fashion them? Can you give life or give it prolongation? Do you have power to do without your Lord? Yet I find that many fail to pray. We are commanded to do so by our all-wise Heavenly Father: “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.” (James 1:5.)”

----

Similarly, the great plan of the fullness of joy has already been worked out. There is no need to recreate the wheel, so to speak. We just have to follow the course and show faith in it. We can inherit the program, the method and all that goes along with it without having to produce the methods ourselves. That doesn't take away the process of actually walking down the path and doing the steps that are still necessary. The walking though is in terms of overcoming the tendency to think that I am moving forward because of myself and not because there is a higher being helping me do it.

God receives usury, He reaps where He did not sow. The idea that gains can only be made on personal achievement is satanic, realizing that this is not an all or nothing thing, I am not saying there is no personal responsibility involved. The responsibility, though, lies in having enough faith to receive what is being offered, a full inheritance. God's plan is to share glory, to give glory and to give all that He has. If it was all personal achievement in the end, then there would be no reason to come to Earth for a test of faith. Faith, by definition, is to receive something that was not originated by the person themselves. Why would you want to make faith not so necessary by suggesting that we have to work it out all on our own. Either faith is necessary or it is not, as an essential characteristic of one who makes it into the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. A person who wholly relies on their own achievement cares nothing about faith.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Seminarysnoozer

[Blackmarch]

Or perhaps ever further testing...

I don't believe in inheritable experience.

I also don't want to get into a debate about what Christ did in Gethsemane and on the Cross because we just don't know, but...

The Atonement allows Christ to make it as if our sins NEVER occurred, after we go through the steps of repentance. Man cannot be saved in their sins. If you think about the difference between the concept of paying for our sins versus making it as if our sins never occurred. The difference is vast.

The Atonement was infinite. Trying to put a quantity of pain or sin that He experienced during that trial is irrational.

My past experience has let me to believe so.

Dunno. Maybe He dosen't. She must. I am sure that they are a very close couple and that God is perfectly empathic though...

Christ did what he saw his father do. Christ suffered all pains that he might know how to succor his people.

Works for me.

Or the any % portion of infinite = infinite.. that works too XD

[mikbone]

Thanks again for your responses.

What is "perfectly empathic" mean?

Empathy means "1. the power of understanding and imaginatively entering into another person's feelings "

I suppose if that was "perfect" it would be as if the person experienced it themselves, or at least as valuable. I think that is what I was getting at.

There are differences.

Looking at the example you gave of God knowing what it is like to give birth.

My wife just birthed our 10th child. She labored. I stayed there with her and performed the home birth. I served as the delivering physician, husband, and father. I did not feel her feelings, but I have had physical trials in the past & I remembered my feelings during those trials and thus had sympathy for her. But I did not go through the 9 months of carrying the child, experience the pain of labor, or the recovery.

No doubt God has gone through experiences worse than childbirth so he can imagine the degree of pain a woman goes through during childbirth. But it is not the same.

When you study a textbook, you have, in essence, inherited experience. When you went through anatomy class, you didn't have to work through all the steps that allowed them to understand the structures as well as they do with their various functions. Yes, you had to learn those facts for yourself but you benefited from their previous experience and made it your own without having to repeat all the process that allowed the passing on of information to you. So, by studying anatomy you have inherited a vast amount of experience.

Not quite. The anatomy class I experienced which was very good, emphasized identifying structures. I passed the class with highest honors. But that class was woefully inept in preparing me for my current vocation. We totally removed the skin from our cadaver before identifying organs. The tissues were totally dead and embalmed. We did not learn variations in innervation or diversity that can occur due to sickness or just simple irregular anatomy. Today when I perform surgery, I have to perform dissection through small incisions, in internervous planes between compartments and be aware of diseased alive tissue with possible irregular anatomy. Anatomy class did not prepare me for Orthopaedic surgery. My residency prepared me for my practice. But I continue to learn on a diaily basis...

If we didn't inherit knowledge from our parents, our families, teachers etc. we all still be way back in the stone age. Even from the early ages of 3 to 6 months a child is starting to inherit the inclinations and sounds of the particular language they are exposed to, the purpose of a baby babbling. Without those inherited exposures early on the child is forever behind in their development and sometimes permanently so such as those that have attachment disorders.

I think you are discounting all that was given to you by suggesting that the only way to know something is to experience it yourself. You did not experience the making of the English Language. You did not invent a car or a stethoscope, or the computer we are using now. Most things that you know are not things that you developed on your own, they are inherited pieces of knowledge that you accepted on the principles of faith and trust with a parent or teacher etc. Yes you may have confirmed those things via experience but your knowledge base is 99.9999% given to you. And if you don't take that as enough, I believe Alma said it, we should continually give thanks for all we have and Kimball specified, this includes your body and your brain.

Yes I did not invent the computer. I do use one on a daily basis and I have learned over the years how to become more proficient at accomplishing tasks with the computer. But... If you put me in a room with all the raw materials that I would need to create a computer on my own. I could not do it. If you want to have your eyes opened check out this site The Toaster Project

God receives usury, He reaps where He did not sow.

What do you base this statement upon?

God's plan is to share glory, to give glory and to give all that He has.

Actually Satan hoped that he would be given glory & honor for his works. Moses 4:1

Jehovah was willing to follow the Father's plan and give all the glory back to the Father. Moses 4:2

If it was all personal achievement in the end, then there would be no reason to come to Earth for a test of faith. Faith, by definition, is to receive something that was not originated by the person themselves. Why would you want to make faith not so necessary by suggesting that we have to work it out all on our own. Either faith is necessary or it is not, as an essential characteristic of one who makes it into the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. A person who wholly relies on their own achievement cares nothing about faith.

Faith is a complex subject. There is faith that a thing exists. And then there is faith that inspires a person to action. The Lectures on Faith is a great treatise on the subject. Within the lectures one learns that Faith is Power. And that Faith is the principle of action.

Without faith that breakfast existed in my kitchen this morning, I might not have gotten out of bed. But I knew that I could make myself breakfast so I got up.

2 Nephi 2:14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

Faith is the principle which gives man the ability to act.

Edited September 11, 2012 by mikbone

[C_T_R]

God *knows* what it's like to give birth experientially. He knows what it's like to experience every joy and every pain on this earth. How? We don't know. But just because it's beyond our comprehension doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The question of inheriting experience? The endowment addresses this. However, we won't know how it all works until the life to come. Spending time here trying to come up with hypotheses on how this will occur is a waste of time. There is SO much we do know, and that we need to work on. These little matters are going beyond the mark. Focus on what He's told us to do, and if/when you've qualified to be joint heirs with our Lord and Savior, then you'll know at that time.

[Seminarysnoozer]

God *knows* what it's like to give birth experientially. He knows what it's like to experience every joy and every pain on this earth. How? We don't know. But just because it's beyond our comprehension doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The question of inheriting experience? The endowment addresses this. However, we won't know how it all works until the life to come. Spending time here trying to come up with hypotheses on how this will occur is a waste of time. There is SO much we do know, and that we need to work on. These little matters are going beyond the mark. Focus on what He's told us to do, and if/when you've qualified to be joint heirs with our Lord and Savior, then you'll know at that time.

Thank you.

I don't think it is a question of how that is being discussed but supporting examples were given to say that it is possible.

I think the reason this is significant is because it affects how we view God and our potential. It gives support to the possibility that we can become like God. If it is possible to "inherit all" then this would be how God could be forever without beginning or end. This would also support the idea of shared glory. This is related to empathy in that when we love our neighbor as our self all their successes and especially when we are covenanted and sealed together is something that is shared. Just like when we feel good about our child getting a good grade in school. Why don't we feel equally as good whenever any child gets a good grade in school? There is a power in which joy can be eternal when experiences are shared without having to do them one self. It doesn't mean that we stop working or that stop going ourselves because others also benefit from our work. This is why I said this is not an all or nothing thing like Mikbone is trying to make it out to be. I never said it was all faith or it is all received without anything given.

Inheritance means something is given. People somehow struggle with that idea. If there is a struggle with the idea that glory could be given or inherited then I think it is likely the person does not have faith in what the Savior does for us. How we view the Savior is a very important discussion.

[Seminarysnoozer]

There are differences.

Looking at the example you gave of God knowing what it is like to give birth.

My wife just birthed our 10th child. She labored. I stayed there with her and performed the home birth. I served as the delivering physician, husband, and father. I did not feel her feelings, but I have had physical trials in the past & I remembered my feelings during those trials and thus had sympathy for her. But I did not go through the 9 months of carrying the child, experience the pain of labor, or the recovery.

What do you base this statement upon?

Actually Satan's hoped that he would be given glory & honor for his works. Moses 4:1

Jehovah was willing to follow the Father's plan and give all the glory back to the Father. Moses 4:2

Faith is a complex subject. There is faith that a thing exists. And then there is faith that inspires a person to action. The Lectures on Faith is a great treatise on the subject. Within the lectures one learns that Faith is Power. And that Faith is the principle of action.

Without faith that breakfast existed in my kitchen this morning, I might not have gotten out of bed. But I knew that I could make myself breakfast so I got up.

2 Nephi 2:14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

Faith is the principle which gives man the ability to act.

Luke 19: "22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:

23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?

24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.

25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)

26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him."

"...even he that hath shall be taken away from him"

Whether we have something in the end or not is not based on what we were able to do but how we did it and God will be the judge in the end of who is added to and who gets what taken away. In that parable, what does it mean to you "unto every one which hath shall be given"? Did not the one that had 10 got another? The one that had 10 did not earn of make 10 and yet he had another added to him. This is reaping where we do not sow and gaining a usury for our efforts. This is how eternal happiness occurs.

When it is wanting to take credit for it alone, 'it is all from me' or 'it is all mine' that is satanic. Sharing and giving is God's plan .... that was my point about Satans idea.

The most important faith is of the type stated in the Articles of Faith; "We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; ..."

We have Faith in the Lord. The action is of the Lord, it is His action that we have faith in.

Like I stated previously, I am not saying this is an all or nothing thing like you are trying to make it out to be. I am not saying all of our glory is not worked through, we all contribute to the pot. The pot is bigger than ourselves though. It can only be a shared thing though if it is possible to share. If experiences aren't shared than it is not possible, we would have to do it on our own ... like Satan wanted to take credit for himself only, not be beholden to anyone. To cut out the portion that is given or inherited is similar to what Satan wanted, but was not possible because the only way it is had is by sharing.

Why is it that the Celestial Kingdom is made up of family and sealing? Because this is in symbolism to the shared glory. Just like one feels the happiness of our children's good grades over any one else in the class that may have gotten a good grade, it is our link with that individual that allows us to "experience" their happiness when they do well. Don't you feel something different when one of your 10 children does well then if another child no the other side of the world does something that you might read about in a newspaper etc. There is something more there when it is sealed, united in covenant and "shared". This is where the eternal nature of happiness is found. It cannot be that way when there is no sealing.

[mikbone]

You are the quoting the parable of talents to support your position that the Lord reaps where He does not sow?

The beauty of parables is that they are symbolic so they have multiple meanings. My favorite intrepretation is as follows.

A talent is a measure of weight. See Matthew 25:14-29, & Bible Dictionary under the heading of weights and measures.

A talent is thus both a token of value and a measurement of weight about 75-135 lbs. Talent (measurement) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So here is the question, in my opinion that makes the parable come to life. What weighs about 75-135 lbs and has value to the Lord?

Perhaps the Lord is stating that Men are his servants. And Men (fathers / husbands) that fail in their stewardship shall lose their talents. Those men who were good stewards of their talents shall receive the talents of the poor stewards.

Edited September 11, 2012 by mikbone

[Vort]

So God loves only short, thin people?

(j/k. I like that interpretation.)

[mikbone]

So God loves only short, thin people?

(j/k. I like that interpretation.)

lol, figured I'd get this response just not from you Vort.

Archeologists think that the average size of a male during the time of Christ was 5'1" 110 pounds.

[Seminarysnoozer]

You are the quoting the parable of talents to support your position that the Lord reaps where He does not sow?

The beauty of parables is that they are symbolic so they have multiple meanings. My favorite intrepretation is as follows.

A talent is a measure of weight. See Matthew 25:14-29, & Bible Dictionary under the heading of weights and measures.

A talent is thus both a token of value and a measurement of weight about 75-135 lbs. Talent (measurement) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So here is the question, in my opinion that makes the parable come to life. What weighs about 75-135 lbs and has value to the Lord?

Perhaps the Lord is stating that Men are his servants. And Men (fathers / husbands) that fail in their stewardship shall lose their talents. Those men who were good stewards of their talents shall receive the talents of the poor stewards.

No, I am quoting the parable of the ten talents to support a theme of increase, of being added to, of multiplying the yield, the reward. I am sure you could find multiple meanings to the parable like you say but mine was more focused on the Lord and his grace as it pertains to the "inherit all" theme of this thread. I am sure you could find multiple ways to divert the topic to something else.

Elder Holland said in one of his conference talks this year; "Which leads me to my third and last point. This parable—like all parables—is not really about laborers or wages any more than the others are about sheep and goats. This is a story about God’s goodness, His patience and forgiveness, and the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is a story about generosity and compassion. It is a story about grace. It underscores the thought I heard many years ago that surely the thing God enjoys most about being God is the thrill of being merciful, especially to those who don’t expect it and often feel they don’t deserve it."

The interpretation of the parable of the ten talents is in the scriptures; “21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” Which is that the joy of the lord is in the multiplication, going from few to many. Without the Lord we could not receive such rewards, it would be a one for one type reward. But with the Lord and God's plan of happiness it is multiplied.

In Ezekiel we learn of one of the characteristics of the Lord : "Ezekiel 36: 11” 11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the Lord." It is by the multiplication of the increase that we know of the Lord.

Elder Wirthlin describes this as the principle of compensation; "Elder Wirthlin said :” The Principle of Compensation

The third thing we can do is understand the principle of compensation. The Lord compensates the faithful for every loss. That which is taken away from those who love the Lord will be added unto them in His own way. While it may not come at the time we desire, the faithful will know that every tear today will eventually be returned a hundredfold with tears of rejoicing and gratitude.

One of the blessings of the gospel is the knowledge that when the curtain of death signals the end of our mortal lives, life will continue on the other side of the veil. There we will be given new opportunities. Not even death can take from us the eternal blessings promised by a loving Heavenly Father”

Eternal life is that effect of multiplication : Matthew 19:29 “29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.”

In First Corinthians it says; "1 corinthians 3

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but aministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;"

One of the crafty tricks of Satan is to get people to believe that what they learn here is somehow theirs (i.e. - vain thoughts as described in the scripture above). That is glorying in man. Why do that? Why would anyone do that when "all are yours".

Let me ask you, is there any experience that you have had in this life that God does not have? Is there anything that, in the end, you can claim as uniquely yours? Even the example that you gave of learning things while performing surgery etc. Is there any bit of that that God is not aware of or that you can vainly claim as your own? Is there any experience in your life that you have managed to keep hidden from God? How about even small aspects of that experience, such as how you felt or what you learned or the degree to which you felt something during the experience such as anger, pleasure, pride, peace etc.? Can you say that you understand that experience more than God does because you lived through it or does God know it equally as well? If you say that is just a knowledge of what it is “like” or experienced it through extrapolation or comparison or recalling similar experiences etc., then there are aspects of that experience that God really doesn’t know. If God knows it equally as well, is that not an aspect of Godliness that would be part of being “like God”. Is there any aspect of your life that you have hidden from Christ? Some experience that will remain with you only for the eternities?

In turn, if God has it I am assuming that it is included in the receiving of all that God has for those that make it into the Celestial Kingdom. I am not trying to take the works out of he picture, I am just saying that there is also some grace, there is also some gift or some multiple of the reward as the parable of the ten talents suggests when the one who was faithful receives the talent from the one who had it taken way in addition to what he had already been awarded.

[mikbone]

Let me ask you, is there any experience that you have had in this life that God does not have? Is there anything that, in the end, you can claim as uniquely yours? Even the example that you gave of learning things while performing surgery etc. Is there any bit of that that God is not aware of or that you can vainly claim as your own? Is there any experience in your life that you have managed to keep hidden from God? How about even small aspects of that experience, such as how you felt or what you learned or the degree to which you felt something during the experience such as anger, pleasure, pride, peace etc.? Can you say that you understand that experience more than God does because you lived through it or does God know it equally as well? If you say that is just a knowledge of what it is “like” or experienced it through extrapolation or comparison or recalling similar experiences etc., then there are aspects of that experience that God really doesn’t know. If God knows it equally as well, is that not an aspect of Godliness that would be part of being “like God”. Is there any aspect of your life that you have hidden from Christ? Some experience that will remain with you only for the eternities?

In turn, if God has it I am assuming that it is included in the receiving of all that God has for those that make it into the Celestial Kingdom. I am not trying to take the works out of he picture, I am just saying that there is also some grace, there is also some gift or some multiple of the reward as the parable of the ten talents suggests when the one who was faithful receives the talent from the one who had it taken way in addition to what he had already been awarded.

1) No, I do not have any secrets from God, nor have I experienced anything that He cannot understand.

2) This is because He is infinitely more experienced that I (or anyone else).

3) The place where you and I differ is that (please correct me if I am wrong), you seem to believe that if we receive entrance into the Celestial Kingdom we will be gifted with an infinite amount of experience, and knowledge by proxy. It is my belief that with the entrance into the Celestial Kingdom that we will have the opportunity, if we so choose, to continue progression. We will have the capacity to earn further experiences and knowledge by taking on new responsibilities and trials. I do NOT believe that we will be given any experience or knowledge without earning those experiences.

As far as I am aware there is no 'Doctrine' concerning these concepts because it is not terribly important to our mortal trial. But common sense and Joseph Smith's King Follett Discourse convinces me that more is in store for those who are worthy.

April 7, 1844 Joseph Smith King Follett Discourse as recorded by George Laub

You have got to learn how to be a god yourself in order to save yourself-- to be priests & kings as all Gods has done--by going from a small degree to another--from exaltation to exaltation--till they are able to sit in glory as with those who sit enthroned. I want you to know while God is being proclaimed that he is not trifling with you nor me.

Edited September 12, 2012 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

1) No, I do not have any secrets from God, nor have I experienced anything that He cannot understand.

2) This is because He is infinitely more experienced that I (or anyone else).

3) The place where you and I differ is that (please correct me if I am wrong), you seem to believe that if we receive entrance into the Celestial Kingdom we will be gifted with an infinite amount of experience, and knowledge by proxy. It is my belief that with the entrance into the Celestial Kingdom that we will have the opportunity, if we so choose, to continue progression. We will have the capacity to earn further experiences and knowledge by taking on new responsibilities and trials. I do NOT believe that we will be given any experience or knowledge without earning those experiences.

As far as I am aware there is no 'Doctrine' concerning these concepts because it is not terribly important to our mortal trial. But common sense and Joseph Smith's King Follett Discourse convinces me that more is in store for those who are worthy.

April 7, 1844 Joseph Smith King Follett Discourse as recorded by George Laub

Thanks for your response, sorry I did not respond quickly, I was away on vacation.

And I think that you think that there will be no gift because a "gift" by its very definition means it is not "earned" it is inherited. For you then, 'inheritance" does not really mean inheritance, it just means potential. If it is just potential that we are given, meaning given something we don't already have, then you are claiming by that, that we do not inherently have that potential to be like Him. Then, the potential to be like Him is something that has to be developed and not that we are born with it, as in being spirit children of God. I do not believe that. I believe we are born with the potential. It is ours to lose already.

Why do you think the "earning" is not in keeping the second estate? Is there some other trial to pass that you believe in that has not been revealed? Or do we really come unto His rest?

Is there some other evil force that Christ does not overcome that will be presented to us at some point so that we might overcome what Christ already will overcome for us? Or do we fall again so that we may double do, and therefore negate what Christ has done so that we may claim it as our own? Is that not what Satan wanted? To not be beholden to any savior but himself?

To me, the idea that we have to repeat what Christ did for us suggests a lack of faith in what Christ actually does for us ... He doesn't really make us clean, white as snow, glorified, one with Him and therefore with God. Are we not supposed to have faith that He will make us "one" as He wished it. Specifically speaking about glory, this is what Christ says in John 17 "“That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

“And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.”

[mikbone]

Thanks for your response, sorry I did not respond quickly, I was away on vacation.

And I think that you think that there will be no gift because a "gift" by its very definition means it is not "earned" it is inherited. For you then, 'inheritance" does not really mean inheritance, it just means potential. If it is just potential that we are given, meaning given something we don't already have, then you are claiming by that, that we do not inherently have that potential to be like Him. Then, the potential to be like Him is something that has to be developed and not that we are born with it, as in being spirit children of God. I do not believe that. I believe we are born with the potential. It is ours to lose already.

Why do you think the "earning" is not in keeping the second estate? Is there some other trial to pass that you believe in that has not been revealed? Or do we really come unto His rest?

Is there some other evil force that Christ does not overcome that will be presented to us at some point so that we might overcome what Christ already will overcome for us? Or do we fall again so that we may double do, and therefore negate what Christ has done so that we may claim it as our own? Is that not what Satan wanted? To not be beholden to any savior but himself?

To me, the idea that we have to repeat what Christ did for us suggests a lack of faith in what Christ actually does for us ... He doesn't really make us clean, white as snow, glorified, one with Him and therefore with God. Are we not supposed to have faith that He will make us "one" as He wished it. Specifically speaking about glory, this is what Christ says in John 17 "“That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

“And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.”

I hope you had a good vacation.

I guess my issue is that some people think that when we exit this life that we will enter into the Celestial Kingdom and be co-equal with God.

There was a recent post here on the forums wherein a person was told that we don't kneel in the celestial room because in there, we are equal with God.

I think not.

Lets look at the concept of the Lords 'Rest'.

D&C 84:24 is the only scripture that I can find that defines the Lords rest.

"rest is the fulness of his glory"

Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

These scriptures, to me, suggest that the Lord's rest is WORK.

Yes we are born with the potential to become like God. But it is not a sure thing. It must be earned. And I believe that the earning of the Lord's Rest will take much more time and effort that what can be achieved here on this Earth.

There is much instore for those that are worthy.

God does not 'owe' anyone exaltation.

Lets look at the parable of the prodigal son as well.

Most people who discuss this parable in Luke 15 dwell on the son that was lost who is given the fatted lamb.

But it is important to see the results of the work of the good son.

29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

Do you think that the prodigal son is going to receive an equal inheritance of the good son?

Edited September 24, 2012 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

I hope you had a good vacation.

I guess my issue is that some people think that when we exit this life that we will enter into the Celestial Kingdom and be co-equal with God.

There was a recent post here on the forums wherein a person was told that we don't kneel in the celestial room because in there, we are equal with God.

I think not.

Lets look at the concept of the Lords 'Rest'.

D&C 84:24 is the only scripture that I can find that defines the Lords rest.

"rest is the fulness of his glory"

Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

These scriptures, to me, suggest that the Lord's rest is WORK.

Yes we are born with the potential to become like God. But it is not a sure thing. It must be earned. And I believe that the earning of the Lord's Rest will take much more time and effort that what can be achieved here on this Earth.

There is much instore for those that are worthy.

God does not 'owe' anyone exaltation.

Lets look at the parable of the prodigal son as well.

Most people who discuss this parable in Luke 15 dwell on the son that was lost who is given the fatted lamb.

But it is important to see the results of the work of the good son.

29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

Do you think that the prodigal son is going to receive an equal inheritance of the good son?

I did have a good vacation, thank you (Baja - beautiful place).

Thanks for your response.

I do not necessarily see it as an all or nothing process either. I think I stated that before. In other words, I agree there will still need to be some form of development and progress. And I completely agree that His rest is the Work. The rest though that I was referring to was any idea that there still has to be something to overcome. It is rest from the evil forces that we find here, at least in a personal sense. Will those that are in the Celestial Kingdom still be involved with "fighting" the forces of evil? Sure, I believe so but not in any sense of a personal development or need to overcome such adversities for self refinement. If that is the case (something we cant really know right now) the fight against evil would be only in terms of God's work as opposed to a personal battle. I think that is what I meant by rest, and I think that is what is meant by 'come unto my rest' or 'my burden is light' type phrases.

I am glad you are conversing with me because I see this as a doctrinal difference occasionally when I am able to have deeper discussions with friends or family, the idea that somehow we have to personally experience all and overcome all individually to achieve the things that God has. I think that goes against what Christ stands for which is His grace and His sacrifice for us so that we can have what He has via His sacrifice. I also think the concept of the Celestial Kingdom is one in which there is a sharing of all. Like the story of the prodigal son suggests to me that those that are with the Father have all that the Father has. There is nothing that is kept in a secret room somewhere or in the recesses of His mind that is not revealed when all is revealed.

Let me ask you something, Do you believe that when His task is completed here, Christ has all the power and glory and knowledge of God? If not, what thing is not given, specifically? In what thing are they not "one"? Should the scriptures really be saying they are "one" but they are not really "one"? We already know they are separate beings and yet we still believe they are "one". Or do we not believe that? It is not just one in purpose, we believe that Christ has all that God has. Or maybe we do not and I am misguided.

What is D&C 93 saying here; " 16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

17 And he received all bpower, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him.

18 And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John.

19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace."

Yes, I believe there are steps that have to be done but the reward is in terms of grace, grace for grace. It is not due reward for due reward. It is a process in which the reward is greater than possible if we were to try to do it on our own. It is a synergistic, added on top of process, not a 'you earn it you keep it' process. The reward is greater than what is done. This is the whole gospel is that concept, as it says there in verse 19, it is given to understand how to worship. We worship the God of being glorified in others. To receive the "fulness" we have to have that mindset. The opposite mindset is that of, every thing I did, I did it on my own and the reward is what is due for such effort, it is not a grace, it is simply the measured pre-calculated wage for such action. If there is such a calculated wage for action then there is no judgement, there is nothing to judge or to stratify. Then there is no purpose to this life.

If that were true, then there would be no reason to stratify the reward, there would be simply a linear relationship (one line) between work and reward. There would be no reason to place people in Kingdoms if the process is just, you get what you put into it, nothing added. The reason for this life is to prove that we will do the things we are asked to do. Why? because in the end there is a reward for doing that and will not be given to those who do not have it as a desire of their heart. Our God is not one of limitations but one of uplifting nature. He wants to give the gift to those who will receive it but it is still a gift, it is not just a wage for equal amounts of work. If that is the case then He should be looked at as an employer and not a God. But that is not the case because the Celestial Kingdom offers an exponential relationship between work and reward, not a linear one.

[mikbone]

D&C 93 is a great treatise of my position.

Grace for Grace.

I fear that many LDS read verses like John 17:22

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one"

And come to the conclusion that we will be given Godhood instead of earning it grace for grace.

I love D. Todd Christofferson's talk in oct 2002 conference tittled, That They May Be One in Us.

The following is the penultimate paragraph from the above talk.

Surely we will not be one with God and Christ until we make Their will and interest our greatest desire. Such submissiveness is not reached in a day, but through the Holy Spirit, the Lord will tutor us if we are willing until, in process of time, it may accurately be said that He is in us as the Father is in Him. At times I tremble to consider what may be required, but I know that it is only in this perfect union that a fulness of joy can be found. I am grateful beyond expression that I am invited to be one with those holy beings I revere and worship as my Heavenly Father and Redeemer.

I believe that Brother Christofferson was referencing the following words of Joseph Smith When He made the above statement.

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me.

These are the first principles of consolation. How consoling to the mourners when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that, although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more, but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said.

When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of anything that is not contained in the Bible. If I do, I think there are so many over-wise men here that they would cry “treason” and put me to death. So I will go to the old Bible and turn commentator today.

The King Follett Sermon - Ensign Apr. 1971 - ensign

Edited September 25, 2012 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

D&C 93 is a great treatise of my position.

Grace for Grace.

I fear that many LDS read verses like John 17:22

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one"

And come to the conclusion that we will be given Godhood instead of earning it grace for grace.

I love D. Todd Christofferson's talk in oct 2002 conference tittled, That They May Be One in Us.

The following is the penultimate paragraph from the above talk.

Surely we will not be one with God and Christ until we make Their will and interest our greatest desire. Such submissiveness is not reached in a day, but through the Holy Spirit, the Lord will tutor us if we are willing until, in process of time, it may accurately be said that He is in us as the Father is in Him. At times I tremble to consider what may be required, but I know that it is only in this perfect union that a fulness of joy can be found. I am grateful beyond expression that I am invited to be one with those holy beings I revere and worship as my Heavenly Father and Redeemer.

I believe that Brother Christofferson was referencing the following words of Joseph Smith When He made the above statement.

The King Follett Sermon - Ensign Apr. 1971 - ensign

I've been talking about after this life, after the trial. I can see where we would seem to have differing opinions if you think I was talking about now, during this mortal probation. Brother Christofferson is clearly talking about the fear and trembling he has in this life to try to make his will match the Lord's while journeying through this mortal probation. Clearly, Joseph Smith is talking about before the final judgment as well when he says "...and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead..." The resurrection of the dead does not happen after the final judgment and after the assignment to a Kingdom, or in other words, at the point of receiving an inheritance. Also note, Joseph Smith even said "from a small capacity to a great one".

I have never denied the fact that we have to work out our exaltation in "fear and trembling" while here in mortal probation. Unfortunately, people, I think, get the time frames mixed up. Father had to pass through this type of mortal probation, so therefore He had to work through His salvation in "fear and trembling" also, i.e. - a mortal probation. One of the key phrases given in that quote is "How consoling to the mourners when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that, although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more, but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ." Which means there is nothing more to "fear and tremble" over after that point.

That doesn't mean we can't still learn. It is just that we will learn without having to prove anything. We just take it in. The only factor that may be lacking at that point for someone who makes it into the Celestial Kingdom to receive all is just a matter of time, to take it all in, to "learn". Joseph Smith clearly states that the trials end here. It is possible to learn without trials, otherwise our concept of what happened before this life is a little difficult to explain. For me, a "trial" has to include the option of going down road A or road B never to be able to go back to that decision point again and where road A leads to a different place than road B. After resurrection, and especially for those in the Celestial Kingdom, the type of learning is the type that one would get in the presence of God, which is to say of pure light and enlightenment. There will not be a need for trying to 'figure out' if it is correct or not or an option to veer off the curriculum.

Tell me if we are not to "suffer, or die any more" what possibly could we "overcome" at that point of becoming "heirs of and God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ"?

Edited September 25, 2012 by Seminarysnoozer

[mikbone]

I've been talking about after this life, after the trial. I can see where we would seem to have differing opinions if you think I was talking about now, during this mortal probation. Brother Christofferson is clearly talking about the fear and trembling he has in this life to try to make his will match the Lord's while journeying through this mortal probation. Clearly, Joseph Smith is talking about before the final judgment as well when he says "...and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead..." The resurrection of the dead does not happen after the final judgment and after the assignment to a Kingdom, or in other words, at the point of receiving an inheritance. Also note, Joseph Smith even said "from a small capacity to a great one".

I have never denied the fact that we have to work out our exaltation in "fear and trembling" while here in mortal probation. Unfortunately, people, I think, get the time frames mixed up. Father had to pass through this type of mortal probation, so therefore He had to work through His salvation in "fear and trembling" also, i.e. - a mortal probation. One of the key phrases given in that quote is "How consoling to the mourners when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that, although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more, but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ." Which means there is nothing more to "fear and tremble" over after that point.

That doesn't mean we can't still learn. It is just that we will learn without having to prove anything. We just take it in. The only factor that may be lacking at that point for someone who makes it into the Celestial Kingdom to receive all is just a matter of time, to take it all in, to "learn". Joseph Smith clearly states that the trials end here. It is possible to learn without trials, otherwise our concept of what happened before this life is a little difficult to explain. For me, a "trial" has to include the option of going down road A or road B never to be able to go back to that decision point again and where road A leads to a different place than road B. After resurrection, and especially for those in the Celestial Kingdom, the type of learning is the type that one would get in the presence of God, which is to say of pure light and enlightenment. There will not be a need for trying to 'figure out' if it is correct or not or an option to veer off the curriculum.

Tell me if we are not to "suffer, or die any more" what possibly could we "overcome" at that point of becoming "heirs of and God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ"?

Yeah, in my opinion you misunderstand, me, Brother Christofferson, and Joseph Smith.

I believe that they are clearly talking about what is to come for those whom are worthy in the hereafter...

Fear and Trembling refers to the atonement.

I will quote Joseph Smith one more time.

When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of anything that is not contained in the Bible. If I do, I think there are so many over-wise men here that they would cry “treason” and put me to death. So I will go to the old Bible and turn commentator today.

We are at the bottom rung of the ladder. I haven't learned the first principle of exaltation. Can you name any of the principles of exaltation??? It is not to be comprended in this world! It will be a great work even beyond the grave. Joseph Smith was about to go into more detail but he could not because of all the over-wise saints that were in the audience whom he alluded to as traitors.

Just try to suspend your current stance and read the King Follett sermon with the insight as if Joseph Smith is trying to share with you something of great worth. You must recognize that Joseph Smith had experiences and knowledge that superseded all of the following Latter Day Prophets.

Or you could continue to be closed minded and refuse open your mind to anything that is not contained within the Bible.

Edited September 25, 2012 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

Yeah, in my opinion you misunderstand, me, Brother Christofferson, and Joseph Smith.

I believe that they are clearly talking about what is to come for those whom are worthy in the hereafter...

Fear and Trembling refers to the atonement.

I will quote Joseph Smith one more time.

We are at the bottom rung of the ladder. I haven't learned the first principle of exaltation. Can you name any of the principles of exaltation??? It is not to be comprended in this world! It will be a great work even beyond the grave. Joseph Smith was about to go into more detail but he could not because of all the over-wise saints that were in the audience whom he alluded to as traitors.

Just try to suspend your current stance and read the King Follett sermon with the insight as if Joseph Smith is trying to share with you something of great worth. You must recognize that Joseph Smith had experiences and knowledge that superseded all of the following Latter Day Prophets.

Or you could continue to be closed minded and refuse open your mind to anything that is not contained within the Bible.

Thanks.

I don't think I am being close minded, at all. I think I am trying to couch those statements (which I have read many times and again with this conversation) with the additional teachings from Joseph Smith in the D&C about inheritance and receiving a "fulness".

Like I said with my last post, I don't think we will necessarily comprehend it all immediately or "learn" it all immediately but I doubt it is something that has to be "overcome".

I think you have stated once before that you don't believe in inherited experience. Even though I have tried to explain to you that most of your current life is based in inherited experience whether you like it or not. The ladder that Joseph Smith speaks about, for example, is that very thing. We don't have to create the ladder for our self. Without the ladder could we ascend? What is the ladder? It is the experience of all who came before us, God specifically, who can, from that experienced passed on to us, tell us the right way to go. If that is not inherited experience I am not sure what is. What do you think the ladder is in that metaphor? Is it not all the things that go along with the gospel, all the saving ordinances and help we get by participating in these ordinances. The ordinances of the gospel are not just promises we make but it allows God to give where He otherwise wouldn't or couldn't.

There is nothing in what Joseph Smith is saying that I can see that says we would have to forge our own path or need to figure it out for our self. We won't have to ponder or speculate or wonder what is right. We just have to learn it and comprehend it. ("we" meaning anyone who is in the Celestial Kingdom). ... and I am not sure why you want it to be that way so badly. What benefit do you see in that process?

If we had to forge our own path, the only thing that I would see change in the plan is similar to what Satan wanted. He wanted all the credit for himself, to claim it as his own, as if the "ladder" does not exist. He wanted to make his own ladder his own way, which of course is not possible because the only way to progress to exaltation is to be part of the bigger picture which is the inheritance of all the past experience. The other thing that does is take away any need for anyone else. If the process was so individual then there would be no need for family and the effect of sealing would be nothing.

I think you should open your mind to what it means to be sealed and how that relates to being exalted. One of the cores of our religion is that families can be together forever. Why do we care about that? Not just because of the feel good comfort it brings to know we don't lose the relationships we enjoy here but also because that is how exaltation works. The reason families are so important here and we have been given an opportunity to learn to like it, is because that is how things operate there. In the Celestial Kingdom we are sealed together, we are not individuals like in the other Kingdoms. The glory of the Celestial Kingdom works through the sealed relationships we have with each other. A sealing allows us to share! The idea of forging one's own pathway and only experiencing the glory based in individual effort is the opposite of that. That is why each Kingdom progressively away from the Celestial is more and more individual to the point of the Telestial being like the stars, as one star differs from another, whereas the sun is one and the moon is one. Is there a piece of the sun that stands by itself in individual glory? No.

The bottom line, I guess is; Do you think Celestial beings share anything with God? If so, what? .... I'll tell you my answer already; they share their experiences (that is what is meant by presenting the Kingdom to Him). But please tell me why you think that cannot be done as to me this is one of the cores of our religion which is to love thy neighbor as thyself, meaning whatever my neighbor does is as if I did it myself and whatever I do is as if my neighbor did it for themselves. Whatever God does is seen as the person doing it as well, as Jesus states and whatever Jesus did is given to God as if He himself has done it. If that is not shared experience then I don't know what is.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Seminarysnoozer