This is a full stop for me.


Hala401
 Share

Recommended Posts

So, Sunday I was sitting in Sacrement service and one of the Sisters is speaking. She used the phrase, "I will be like God". She was in the Celestial room and had intended to kneel to pray to Heavenly Father, and was corrected, and told that since we are equal with Heavenly Father we do not kneel in his place.

I will say, that I am absolutely LDS and believe in the church. This one item is a hard stop for me. People can say that I do not understand and that may be true, but right now, I have no plans to ever enter the Celestial Room full stop

It passes my understanding how we could ever in the next 10 million years ever assume to be like the one who was around for the scientifically provable big bang, created all things all the planets and all life.

I give you Isaiah 14:14, Ezekiel 28:2

I am convince able, just not easily.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You misunderstood her, or else she misunderstood what she was told. In either case, it is false doctrine. We avoid kneeling in the Celestial Room, not because we are God's equal, but because it is inappropriate, especially with so many others around.

Believe what you hear that the Spirit testifies to you. Don't just believe or fear for every little thing anyone says at Church, even in a sacrament meeting talk.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Within the limits of my understanding, I may one day stand and talk to Heavenly Father, but I will never consider myself his equal. I am not trying to be a heretic, just trying to understand and right now feeling overwhelmed.

My understanding is that He will always be our God, we will never be his "equal". As others have stated, what that woman said is not doctrine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, Sunday I was sitting in Sacrement service and one of the Sisters is speaking. She used the phrase, "I will be like God". She was in the Celestial room and had intended to kneel to pray to Heavenly Father, and was corrected, and told that since we are equal with Heavenly Father we do not kneel in his place.

I will say, that I am absolutely LDS and believe in the church. This one item is a hard stop for me. People can say that I do not understand and that may be true, but right now, I have no plans to ever enter the Celestial Room full stop

It passes my understanding how we could ever in the next 10 million years ever assume to be like the one who was around for the scientifically provable big bang, created all things all the planets and all life.

I give you Isaiah 14:14, Ezekiel 28:2

I am convince able, just not easily.

Do you want to understand things?

If there are things you don't understand - such as what this sister (supposedly) said, then talk to your bishop...talk to your home teacher....talk to someone. But don't have a temper tantrum and just walk away from the truth.

Your statement saying that you "have no plans to ever enter the Celestial Room full stop" indicates that you do not have a full understanding of the temple (and other things). By gaining a better understanding, you may have a change in attitude.

And FWIW....I am confused about these posts (it's not the first time in this forum) about people wanting to kneel in the Celestial Room. Everyone I know who has been to the temple has been instructed on the proper decorum, so I confess to being surprised that some people don't know this part.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree, take time to check things out before you get yourself worked into a lather over one woman's opinion.

I will never be on equal footing with God and I will never see myself as such. I will always bow to him, if only in my heart. It's inappropriate to kneel in the Celestial room because that's the rule. My opinion is that the rule is there because 1. It's a public place, and 2. There just isn't space. Can you imagine all the people tripping over kneeling people in their long temple clothes if multiple people came out of a session and decided to have a prayer on their knees? It would be madness. Heavenly Father listens to me just as well in my closet or at my bedside as He does anywhere else, including the Temple.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's a difference between inheriting everything the Father has (which is the Father's will) and being equal in glory/power/etc. with the Father (which is impossible). Even when we inherit everything the Father has, we will still be indebted to Him. For instance,

19 And behold also, if I, whom ye call your king, who has spent his days in your service, and yet has been in the service of God, do merit any thanks from you, O how you ought to thank your heavenly King!

20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.

This principle, I believe, applies just as well here as it will in the eternities.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Within the limits of my understanding, I may one day stand and talk to Heavenly Father, but I will never consider myself his equal. I am not trying to be a heretic, just trying to understand and right now feeling overwhelmed.

Hala, Of course we will never be his equal. By the time we get to where he is he will have progressed further down the road of eternity.

I volunteered at the temple for years. No we do not kneel in the Celestial room. There are other places for that. In the Celestial room there are so many people that everyone kneeling would make it very difficult for those coming and going. There just isn't room.

In the SL Temple there are sealing rooms which open directly into the Celestial room. When these rooms are not in use they can be used for personal prayer.... and kneeling is appropriate there. Most of the newer temples are not set up the same way. However, if the need arises and the rooms aren't being used for sealings its always appropriate to ask to use a sealing room for private prayer either alone or with family.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A simple explanation:

1.) Our earthly father is a wonderful, amazing, father. I and my siblings have utmost respect for him and I owe my earthly life to him.

2.) My brother is now a father... just as wonderful and amazing a father - equal in quality as his father before him. His children adore him. But, that doesn't make him equal to our father. Our father is still... our father! And we still have that highly respectful relationship with him!

In the Orlando Temple Celestial Room, it's hard to find places that you can kneel safely. There are no "kneelers" (like they have in the Catholic Church pews and so the only way you can kneel is if you do it on the floor. And if you do that, you're more than likely blocking a passageway and causing a safety risk.

Edited by anatess
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps the Kirtland Temple, which we hope to own again soon, is not seen in the same context as the rest of the temples. I did pay $3 to tour that temple and felt as if I were some where special. It is impossible to be in that Temple and not catch the vision that our Prophet had, in my opinion. I do remember, I think going to the second floor but It seems as if the basic design of a temple has changed since the 1830's.

It's odd because I usually have my tiny Canon camera set to not flash, click or make any rude noises so I can take pictures without disturbing anyone or when I'm not supposed to. :) It would be no surprise to some of you that for some reason, I did not take pictures that day. I was still Muslim then and they allowed me in. :)

I've experienced a lot of things in my life that at first seemed silly, but it later became clear that they were not. I've had "things" happen to me as an Investigator and as a new member.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, Sunday I was sitting in Sacrement service and one of the Sisters is speaking. She used the phrase, "I will be like God". She was in the Celestial room and had intended to kneel to pray to Heavenly Father, and was corrected, and told that since we are equal with Heavenly Father we do not kneel in his place.

I will say, that I am absolutely LDS and believe in the church. This one item is a hard stop for me. People can say that I do not understand and that may be true, but right now, I have no plans to ever enter the Celestial Room full stop

It passes my understanding how we could ever in the next 10 million years ever assume to be like the one who was around for the scientifically provable big bang, created all things all the planets and all life.

I give you Isaiah 14:14, Ezekiel 28:2

I am convince able, just not easily.

Are we offered all that God has or just part if accepted into His highest Kingdom?

Think of the parable of the prodigal son, was he given all that his father had or just part?

If I take a class in chemistry, I do not have to discover all that went into making the periodic table, it is there before me in the text book. I do not have to perform all the experiments to make it my own, it is given to me. If I have faith and trust in those that made the text book then I will take it for what it is and accept it as truth so I don't have to recreate all that was done before for myself.

Similarly, by inheriting all that was done before and through the power of faith to the point of having a perfect knowledge it is as if we had discovered it on our own, it can be ours. At that point of having perfect knowledge it is as good as if we had witnessed the "big-bang" literally. God, having gone through a similar process received all that came before Him which allows Him to say that He has always been and has had that information from the beginning. I don't understand all the details of how this works but we do know that in order for this to happen we have to have a body of flesh and bones and we have to exhibit sufficient faith in spiritual matters and in our Savior to qualify for such a thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Within the limits of my understanding, I may one day stand and talk to Heavenly Father, but I will never consider myself his equal. I am not trying to be a heretic, just trying to understand and right now feeling overwhelmed.

I can certainly understand those feelings. The idea that I could someday be equal with my Savior and my Father In Heaven just doesn't seem possible to me. I know that it is promised, but I just can't wrap my head around it.

But, either way, I plan on doing everything I can to make it to the Celestial Kingdom anyway, so it doesn't really have any effect on how I live. So, I guess once I'm there, I'll take the time to figure it out, but here on Earth, I'm too busy worrying about getting myself there to worry about what will happen after I get there. :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps the Kirtland Temple, which we hope to own again soon, is not seen in the same context as the rest of the temples. I did pay $3 to tour that temple and felt as if I were some where special. It is impossible to be in that Temple and not catch the vision that our Prophet had, in my opinion. I do remember, I think going to the second floor but It seems as if the basic design of a temple has changed since the 1830's.

It's odd because I usually have my tiny Canon camera set to not flash, click or make any rude noises so I can take pictures without disturbing anyone or when I'm not supposed to. :) It would be no surprise to some of you that for some reason, I did not take pictures that day. I was still Muslim then and they allowed me in. :)

I've experienced a lot of things in my life that at first seemed silly, but it later became clear that they were not. I've had "things" happen to me as an Investigator and as a new member.

The Kirtland Temple is owned and operated by the Community of Christ (formerly called the RLDS Church), not our Church.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Kirtland Temple is owned and operated by the Community of Christ (formerly called the RLDS Church), not our Church.

I knew that, but also hope that we own it again soon. When I was there, the tour guide alluded to the idea that the LDS church had helped a lot in the restoration of it, and it was easy to see what was original and what was not, though the restoration work was very well done.

His explanation around the financing and building of the Temple was not complementary, but it did cause me to do substantial research. In the end, I concluded that despite his negative view point of the development of events was not called for as there were extenuating circumstances in my opinion.

I've recieved a lot of condemnation and rejection in my life, so know what that feels like. It is doubly wounding when the various factions will not allow the accused to defend themself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The term "equal" is used quite loosely in our society. We say all races are equal. Well that depends on how you define equal. If the main consideration is skin color - the races are not equal. Same concept applies to sexes - are men and women equal? Depends on how one differentiates the sexes.

The problem is what one is using to differentiate. Usually when we say two individuals are equal we mean that for all things of importance - there should not be a distinct differentiation. But even when two individuals are considered equal that does not mean that they are indistinguishable? Not necessarily. If individuality exists there cannot be complete equality.

Does G-d think his children are equal or not equal? If not equal - why are there different kingdoms - and if you are not LDS why is there a heaven and a hell? But then the scriptures say that G-d is no respecter of persons. Which is it? It depends on what you are differentiating.

Prayer is another problem. Are we to consider G-d our friend or are we to think of ourselves as worthless worms next to G-d? Are we to think of ourselves as even unworthy to pray to G-d or should we pray to him as we would converse with an equal species or another human person? Are we to treat other human persons as equal - loving them as we would our self?

My concern is not if someone thinks themselves equal or better or less than other but why. So here is my thought - does G-d want us to come to a point of understanding where he can think of us as his equal - or does he always want to look down on us. How does he want us to treat and think of others? Should he not be the example of what we should be? Then why should we not think we can ever be equal to him in how he loves others? And is not that the main thing?

As to praying in the temple - Are we paying attention? Is there a “True order of prayer” set aside for the temple? If your answer is no or if you think you do not need to learn from your temple experiences - Well good luck with that attitude -- but there is a more excellent way - and rather than getting all caught up in yourself - and telling G-d how to run things or think of others in your prayers - try listening for a change.

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the Orlando Temple Celestial Room, it's hard to find places that you can kneel safely. There are no "kneelers" (like they have in the Catholic Church pews and so the only way you can kneel is if you do it on the floor. And if you do that, you're more than likely blocking a passageway and causing a safety risk.

And Orlando has one of the larger Celestial Rooms - Dallas is about 1/3 the size of Orlando's

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a one way thing for me. Heavenly Father can say I am equal, but I will always have the same respect and adoration for him.

I don't understand why you would think that being "equal" somehow wipes out respect and adoration.

This is very much exemplified by Jesus Christ. Time and again we read in the scriptures that Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father are ONE. Yet, you don't see Jesus Christ with a lack of respect or adoration for the Father.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a one way thing for me. Heavenly Father can say I am equal, but I will always have the same respect and adoration for him.

"Equal" can have many different meanings. I think "heirs" is a better word for it when we mean our potential relationship with the Father:

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Another way I like to think about it is this: does not the Father's glory increase whenever any of His children receives glory? Thus, the Father's glory will always be uncountably higher than ours, even if we do receive exaltation. Thus I think what you're saying is entirely correct, but we have to remember that our Father's glory is to see His children receive glory.

39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't understand why you would think that being "equal" somehow wipes out respect and adoration.

This is very much exemplified by Jesus Christ. Time and again we read in the scriptures that Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father are ONE. Yet, you don't see Jesus Christ with a lack of respect or adoration for the Father.

Oh, I most certainly agree. I was NON LDS christian for over 30 years, and heard lots of anti Mormon hate talk. Then I was Muslim for seven years. Muslims are absolutely adamant that there is God (Allah SWT) and there is no one above him.

Do, since I converted, I now know that this is Jesus Christ's church, but still find myself really sensitive to any talk about being equal with Heavenly Father.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a one way thing for me. Heavenly Father can say I am equal, but I will always have the same respect and adoration for him.

There is a paradox in your statement. You say you have respect and adoration for G-d but when it comes right down to where the rubber meets the road - you do not believe him or trust his opinion about you?

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is a paradox in your statement. You say you have respect and adoration for G-d but when it comes right down to where the rubber meets the road - you do not believe him or trust his opinion about you?

The Traveler

I do not see it as a paradox at all, rather as a matter of personal opinion. I endured over 30 years of being forced to walk exactly in the foot steps of doctrinal opinion as visioned by someone who thought they could force me, or call me a heretic. Not again.

After taking a breath, respectfully I submit that it is not a matter of unbelief, but Heavenly Father rescued me from such emptiness and hell, that I just can not fathom ever being his equal.

Edited by Hala401
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just remember that those who speak in Sacrament and those working in the temple are not theologians, nor are they necessarily well read in the doctrines of the Church. People misunderstand many tenets of the gospel, and in this the sister was wrong. The Bible teaches that we are "heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ" and that through Christ we may receive all the Father has. But he will always be our God, and we will forever worship him.

The day will come when we are in the real Celestial room of God's heavenly temple, and when we see him, we will all fall down on our knees. We are told that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. There will be an appropriate time to kneel, and that is when we are literally in God's presence. This Celestial room is a place for quiet prayer, but not distractions from the Holy Spirit, as her kneeling would have caused.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am reminded of some of the words to the hymn "How Great Thou Art"

O Lord my God, When I in awesome wonder,

Consider all the worlds Thy Hands have made;

I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder,

Thy power throughout the universe displayed.

Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,

How great Thou art, How great Thou art.

Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,

How great Thou art, How great Thou art!

Our Heavenly Father loves us with a pure perfect love that our human minds simply cannot fathom. He has gone to great lengths for us. He loves me personally and knows me by name. He loves not just me this way, but each and everyone of us. He knows each of us by name. Who am I to question Him? I know what He has promised us, (as undeserving as I am) to be joint-heirs even with Christ. That is pretty astounding, yet that is what He has said, and I believe what He says. As we progress, He will still be the greatest of all.

Heavenly Father - How Great Thou Art!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share