This is a full stop for me.


Hala401
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I think your respect for our Heavenly Father is admirable Hala and there may be a lot of us that need to have more respect for Him.

You have just witnessed why it is so important that we have communication our Father in Heaven through our Prophet. If we were to lean on our own understanding, this sort of thing with would then be thought of as doctrin, and then we would have a gospel of men with mans understanding.

The beauty of it is that we can find the truth, and be corrected. Unless I missed a page, I hope that you have changed your outlook on this and learned something invaluable. Members (although incorrect at times) do not make Gods church any less true. If it raises an alarm then find the answer before making a final decision. I remember when I first heard of some literature that I was unnaware of in a sunday school class. At first I was ready to raise my hand and cry foul... but I took it in stride, looked for the answer, and later found out that what was said was true. I humbled myself and accepted what was said. It is opposite or your experience, but still applicable. If you have now learned the truth, be humble and move on.

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I have no problems with the idea that we can be equal with God. I believe God is a man. A Man of Holiness, but a man. He is the epitome of man. He is perfect in every way possible. He is glorified, exalted, and immortal. He is omniscience and omnipotent. However, I see no reason why God, who has nothing to worry about, would have a problem allowing us to be like him in every conceivable way possible. I can't imagine that God would restrain any portion of his blessing to those who faithfully obey and endure to the end.

Regards,

Finrock

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Finrock, but your description still defines a difference. It is God who gives us divinity and all of His gifts. We do not become gods (whether subordinate to him or equal - whatever that means to divine beings) on our own.

Even if God gives us all his knowledge, power and ability, we would still owe Christ for the atonement, and God for bestowing us with such an endowment of grace. In many ways, we still would not be equal to the Godhead, even as they welcome us to be one with them.

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Good afternoon rameumptom. I hope you are having a good day. :)

Finrock, but your description still defines a difference. It is God who gives us divinity and all of His gifts. We do not become gods (whether subordinate to him or equal - whatever that means to divine beings) on our own.

Even if God gives us all his knowledge, power and ability, we would still owe Christ for the atonement, and God for bestowing us with such an endowment of grace. In many ways, we still would not be equal to the Godhead, even as they welcome us to be one with them.

I do appreciate what you are saying. There is no doubt that exaltation, in the end, is a function of grace. If I accept your logic, then I would also have to accept that Jesus Christ is somehow still not equal to God the Father. I believe that Jesus Christ could not have completed his work alone and needed Heavenly Father. Jesus Christ owes his exaltation to God the Father.

Regards,

Finrock

Edited by Finrock
Took out redundant word
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This scripture came to my mind, found in Moses chapter one. Remember this is when Moses is essentially in a temple celestial room. On a mountain top, in the presence of God.

9 And the presence of God withdrew from Moses, that his glory was not upon Moses; and Moses was left unto himself. And as he was left unto himself, he fell unto the earth.

10 And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.

It appears from these verses that Moses did not feel that he was equal with God. Furthermore, instead of kneeling he fell prostrate upon the ground for the space of many hours. I would bet that Moses at this time was more experienced in spiritual things than your helpful sister...

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We don't get down on our knees in church either. That is something we do at home in private. The sister who spoke was incorrect. We are not equal with Heavenly Father.

Actually, Aaronic Priesthood quorums often pray kneeling. But in general, you're right.

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Just one little question, Hala. What do you mean when you say this is a "full stop" for you. Stops you in your tracks to sit and think about it? Or enough to stop you from going to church? I'm also wondering why you think you will never go into the Celestial room.

(OK that was more than one tiny question. Maybe three. )

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Really? Where? I've never heard of that. My husband prayed kneeling with his bishopric in their meetings but never in a general church meeting.

Aaronic Priesthood quorum meetings often end with a kneeling prayer. I haven't seen this in adult quorums, but it's common in Aaronic Priesthood quorums.

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When I was being taught by the Missionaries, we kneeled until they started bringing shaperones that were too old to do so.

That would be appropriate as a private thing. We often kneel with our home teachers. But like others have said, kneeling in church meetings and classes isn't done generally and there is no mandate to do so. A class might decide to do so and that would be fine.

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Most people do not realise what the church rescued me from, how full of despair I felt, how close I was to the unthinkable. Middle Eastern culture had me so messed up and so programmed to see myself as a lesser being. Encountering kind, literate, and non abusive men who treated me as a princess, left me totally astonished. So now, If there is a chance to kneel in adoration of Heavenly Father, I take it.

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Most people do not realise what the church rescued me from, how full of despair I felt, how close I was to the unthinkable. Middle Eastern culture had me so messed up and so programmed to see myself as a lesser being. Encountering kind, literate, and non abusive men who treated me as a princess, left me totally astonished. So now, If there is a chance to kneel in adoration of Heavenly Father, I take it.

Sometimes I worry Hala that your testimony of the restored gospel is grounded on these "knight in shining armor" moments and not simply on the plain truthfulness of the gospel. The church membership is not perfect and I worry that someday, somebody is going to hurt you really badly and your testimony is going to fall apart like a house of cards.

:(

Because, you don't really have to look too far to find kind, literate, and non-abusive men who would treat you like a princess. And they would not just be Mormons but also atheists and agnostics and Buddhists and Jews and Muslims and Christians... And you might not have to look too far to encounter that one guy who will spit on your face... and he happens to be a Mormon...

Edited by anatess
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Sometimes I worry Hala that your testimony of the restored gospel is grounded on these "knight in shining armor" moments and not simply on the plain truthfulness of the gospel. The church membership is not perfect and I worry that someday, somebody is going to hurt you really badly and your testimony is going to fall apart like a house of cards.

:(

Because, you don't really have to look too far to find kind, literate, and non-abusive men who would treat you like a princess. And they would not just be Mormons but also atheists and agnostics and Buddhists and Jews and Muslims and Christians... And you might not have to look too far to encounter that one guy who will spit on your face... and he happens to be a Mormon...

Oh, I've had that happen. A lot happens in 65 years.

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Everyone I know who has been to the temple has been instructed on the proper decorum, so I confess to being surprised that some people don't know this part.

My only instruction was that I should be reverent and not talk in a loud voice.

I can tell you, and maybe it's my former Catholicism coming through, that I often want nothing more than to kneel in prayer.

Fortunately, I am deterred by the fact that there are no kneelers. If I knelt on the floor, I wouldn't be able to get back up again. :D

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My only instruction was that I should be reverent and not talk in a loud voice.

I can tell you, and maybe it's my former Catholicism coming through, that I often want nothing more than to kneel in prayer.

Fortunately, I am deterred by the fact that there are no kneelers. If I knelt on the floor, I wouldn't be able to get back up again. :D

Kneeling is a prayer in itself; a prayer of humility and humbleness before God. The very act requires a certain interior disposition which lends itself to a deeper prayer life. I find that it also helps in avoiding distractions during prayer as well. When I'm kneeling, I am foused, body and soul, on the Lord. Of course, we can and should pray at all times, but there are those times, and everyone has experienced them, when all of our focus needs to be on that conversation with God. That is when it is time to get on our knees.

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The sister was incorrect in her statement. However, eventually, we can inherit all the Father has.

Unfortunately, there are often "doctrines" being taught by members that are false. I'm sure through misunderstanding most often. Anything we hear, we ask confirmation on. Heavenly Father will direct us.

If we stay close to the Spirit, we will know when a teaching doesn't feel quite right.

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Kneeling is a prayer in itself; a prayer of humility and humbleness before God. The very act requires a certain interior disposition which lends itself to a deeper prayer life. I find that it also helps in avoiding distractions during prayer as well. When I'm kneeling, I am foused, body and soul, on the Lord. Of course, we can and should pray at all times, but there are those times, and everyone has experienced them, when all of our focus needs to be on that conversation with God. That is when it is time to get on our knees.

well said.

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  • 2 weeks later...

"Equal" can have many different meanings. I think "heirs" is a better word for it when we mean our potential relationship with the Father:

Another way I like to think about it is this: does not the Father's glory increase whenever any of His children receives glory? Thus, the Father's glory will always be uncountably higher than ours, even if we do receive exaltation. Thus I think what you're saying is entirely correct, but we have to remember that our Father's glory is to see His children receive glory.

“And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.” (1 Cor. 12:25–26.)

This is what Christ meant by "equal"; In John 17; “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee. …

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. …

“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. …

“Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. …

“As thou has sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. …

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

“That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.”

If the glory is transferable in such a way as Christ is suggesting and praying for, then why would God be stingy with a piece of His glory? Will we be one or just part? I suppose we will get what we want. For those that want only part there is that option, I suppose. But that is not what Christ wants for us. He wants us to be one, 'as they are one'. Not "one" in any other way, like in part.

When God received all His glory, did He get part from His Father or all? If He only got part then there is a beginning to His glory and He is not endless. If He received all from His Father then He is without end or beginning. Isn't that our potential too?

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