Logic and Reason

[Traveler]

Is logic and reason an attribute of G-d or of man?

The Traveler

[Vort]

Man. God's version of these far surpasses ours.

[Guest]

"The glory of God is intelligence."

"Come, let us reason together."

"Truth is reason, truth Eternal. . ."

Those are some lines that popped into my head. Of course, God is omnipotent. Why would someone who knows absolutely everything need to make an effort to employ logic and reason? Only when dealing with man is the only thing I suppose.

So in a nutshell, I have no idea.

[Guest]

It's an attribute of our Spirits. We start off with infantile logic and reasoning and as we progress eternally, logic and reasoning progresses until such a point when our logic and reasoning are one with God's.

[rameumptom]

Is logic and reason an attribute of G-d or of man?

The Traveler

Yes. God and man are of the same species. Therefore, logic and reason are attributes of both. However, as Vort noted, God is able to logically reason better than most mortals.

[Traveler]

Yes. God and man are of the same species. Therefore, logic and reason are attributes of both. However, as Vort noted, God is able to logically reason better than most mortals.

Shouldn't logic and reason produce the same result - regardless of who employes it?

I am glad you and Vort brought up this possibility - So let us explorer another question.

Is logic and reason an attribute of Lucifer (Satan)? Perhaps there is another way to ask the question. Is it logical and reasonable to lie? even if it is just a little bit? Even if you believe in it?

The Traveler

[Guest]

Shouldn't logic and reason produce the same result - regardless of who employes it?

I am glad you and Vort brought up this possibility - So let us explorer another question.

Is logic and reason an attribute of Lucifer (Satan)? Perhaps there is another way to ask the question. Is it logical and reasonable to lie? even if it is just a little bit? Even if you believe in it?

The Traveler

I'd say it is if it gets you what you want, and you are lacking in morals.

The scriptures tell us that he is cunning. Experience tells me the same. He is sly and cunning and will pick at our strengths and utilize our weaknesses to drag us down. I know that it's a controversial view that Satan is also God's son, but assuming that that facet of LDS doctrine is correct, it would be logical to think that we all inherited the ability to reason and use logic from our Father. Even him.

[Guest]

Shouldn't logic and reason produce the same result - regardless of who employes it?

I am glad you and Vort brought up this possibility - So let us explorer another question.

Is logic and reason an attribute of Lucifer (Satan)? Perhaps there is another way to ask the question. Is it logical and reasonable to lie? even if it is just a little bit? Even if you believe in it?

The Traveler

Traveler, what I don't understand with your reasoning (pun intended) is that you apply logic and reason as if they are always good logic and sound reason that lead to truth.

Like anything else Logic and Reason can be right and wrong, good or bad. Logic and Reason is an attribute of our Spirits. And yes, since God is the same species as us, he has Logic and Reason and so does Lucifer.

Without Logic and Reason, Choice is not possible.

[Dravin]

Shouldn't logic and reason produce the same result - regardless of who employes it?

I suspect Vort and Ram are coming from a position of degrees, much like how both I and a marksman can fire a gun and hit a target but the marksman is much better at it than me even if using the same gun. The tool, the gun or logic, is capable of producing the same results but flaws in application or use deviate from that theoretical result. We're still both using a gun though. If one makes logic binary, one either always has flawless logic or one does not have logic, I'm inclined to say logic and reason, under those terms, only exist with God.

Is logic and reason an attribute of Lucifer (Satan)? Perhaps there is another way to ask the question. Is it logical and reasonable to lie? even if it is just a little bit? Even if you believe in it?

What premises are we operating from? If an action is logical or not depends on the framework you put it within. This I would say is one of the differences between man, or Satan, applying logic and God applying logic. God always operates from correct and true premises, Satan and man do not always do so. Edited September 18, 2012 by Dravin

[Vort]

Shouldn't logic and reason produce the same result - regardless of who employes it?

No, for at least two reasons.

First, your premises determine your outcome. Two people starting from different premises can use exactly the same logical structures to come up with entirely different conclusions.

Second, logic itself is simply token manipulation. Logic is to reason as long division is to mathematics: It's a way of performing a process to reach an outcome by using a mechanical process, perhaps without really understanding what you're doing. This suggests that there might be different kinds of processes besides "logic", and therefore that God might use a process that we do not understand that that supersedes (and therefore appears to "violate") the logic that we do understand.

I am glad you and Vort brought up this possibility - So let us explorer another question.

Is logic and reason an attribute of Lucifer (Satan)? Perhaps there is another way to ask the question. Is it logical and reasonable to lie? even if it is just a little bit? Even if you believe in it?

Something is "logical" (1) if it is amenable to the use of logic and (2) if using logic can help achieve a desired outcome. If the outcome you desire is evil, such as manipulating groups of people to believe falsehoods, then logic can indeed be very useful. I have no doubt that Satan uses logic all the time to lead people astray. Similar argumentation can be applied to the use of "reason".

Edited September 18, 2012 by Vort

[BrendaM]

Is logic and reason an attribute of G-d or of man?

The Traveler

I enjoy reading this thread, but I must admit, it makes me feel dumb. I am going back to the original question here...I think logic and reason is an attribute of both.

[rameumptom]

Logic and reason work only insofar as the individual or group have true, valid, and sufficient data. God having all knowledge can use logic and reason to come up with the best of all conclusions.

Consider a chess game. God against Gary Kasparov. Kasparov has the skill and ability to see most possible moves 15 moves ahead of the current game play. God has the skill and ability to see all possible moves from beginning to end of the game, and can calculate, from knowing everything about Kasparov, just what is most likely going to be each and every move Gary makes.

Both have logic and reason, but God's is more complete.

Then consider that we often start reasoning with faulty information. Why are there so many Christian religions? Because different people saw Bible issues differently from one another. Martin Luther's thesis against Catholic abuses was a shock for most Catholic priests to hear about, because it was not logical for them. Indulgences and bribes had been a part of the program for so long, that they did not recognize it as illogical and wrong. Because the Bible spoke of the 4 corners of the earth, and the earth being in the center of all God's creation, it caused Catholic priests to reject Galileo's scientific discovery. Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R McConkie both taught that evolution was a heresy from the devil, as it did not fit their reading of the scriptures.

Of course, Richard Dawkins has never experienced the Holy Spirit before, and so makes all his atheist statements that there is no God, based upon his limited experience.

Herein lies the problem with logic and reasoning. Mortals come to believe they know the truth from the things they previously knew to be true, but they don't know the truth. They know theories based upon logic, reason and scientific experimentation. While we know evolution occurs, we still call it a theory, because we do not have all the details or facts on how it works in each and every instance. Darwinism has been replaced with new theories, but still based upon evolution.

[Traveler]

Logic and reason work only insofar as the individual or group have true, valid, and sufficient data. God having all knowledge can use logic and reason to come up with the best of all conclusions.

Consider a chess game. God against Gary Kasparov. Kasparov has the skill and ability to see most possible moves 15 moves ahead of the current game play. God has the skill and ability to see all possible moves from beginning to end of the game, and can calculate, from knowing everything about Kasparov, just what is most likely going to be each and every move Gary makes.

Both have logic and reason, but God's is more complete.

Then consider that we often start reasoning with faulty information. Why are there so many Christian religions? Because different people saw Bible issues differently from one another. Martin Luther's thesis against Catholic abuses was a shock for most Catholic priests to hear about, because it was not logical for them. Indulgences and bribes had been a part of the program for so long, that they did not recognize it as illogical and wrong. Because the Bible spoke of the 4 corners of the earth, and the earth being in the center of all God's creation, it caused Catholic priests to reject Galileo's scientific discovery. Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R McConkie both taught that evolution was a heresy from the devil, as it did not fit their reading of the scriptures.

Of course, Richard Dawkins has never experienced the Holy Spirit before, and so makes all his atheist statements that there is no God, based upon his limited experience.

Herein lies the problem with logic and reasoning. Mortals come to believe they know the truth from the things they previously knew to be true, but they don't know the truth. They know theories based upon logic, reason and scientific experimentation. While we know evolution occurs, we still call it a theory, because we do not have all the details or facts on how it works in each and every instance. Darwinism has been replaced with new theories, but still based upon evolution.

I find your responses very interesting and enjoy our conversations from time to time but I am concerned that you may feel offended by my questions. It is true that I often ask loaded questions to see if someone is presenting a new idea for me or just rehashing things I have considered.

So with that my question is - do you believe in number theory or do you think there is something better that G-d uses? If so or if not why?

To be specific - this is a path I have walked very carefully and I an curious what you or others conclude (with your logic and reasoning - including spiritual guidance) and if it is similar to what I concluded.

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

I believe God to be pragmatic, affording to each individual the maximum amount of happiness he/she chooses to have. Number theory or whatever other form of logic God may use, are just means to an end. His end is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

[Traveler]

I believe God to be pragmatic, affording to each individual the maximum amount of happiness he/she chooses to have. Number theory or whatever other form of logic God may use, are just means to an end. His end is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Maybe you and I see things differently. For me it is the way, the path or the journey - not the end. I believe that with G-d there is no end. Immortality and eternal life is the way, the path or the journey - not the end.

I used number theory because all that use number theory by discipline must follow the exact same path - there is no disagreement, there are no ambiguities, there is no veering off to the right or left. I believe number theory is perhaps the best representation I have found to symbolically correlate with the logic and reasoning of G-d. Others may not agree but as of yet no one has presented a better model. Do you have a better example?

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

The problem with number theory, is God does not use it. Or if he does, he does not use number theory in the way you suggest. There are many ways back to God, although the closer one gets to God, the narrower the path. God does not mathematically weigh our souls to determine who is saved or not.

[C_T_R]

Welp, I think logic and reason are an attribute of God. The natural man is anything but logical or reasonable.

However, to some people, He isn't logical or reasonable.. For example, mercy doesn't seem logical to a lot of people I've talked to. Neither does kindness, gentleness, and doing those things without any ulterior motive.

Logic and reason is subjective to man, but it's clearly logical, to me at least, which way leads to freedom and happiness, and which way leads to captivity and misery. To many, abstaining from sex before marriage, or alcohol is illogical.. it's subjective to man based on their experience and thought processes. But God is logic and reason.

[Traveler]

The problem with number theory, is God does not use it. Or if he does, he does not use number theory in the way you suggest. There are many ways back to God, although the closer one gets to God, the narrower the path. God does not mathematically weigh our souls to determine who is saved or not.

I think I see a possible disconnect in our conversations. I made reference to number theory as a symbolic reference - similar to Jesus making reference to the faith of a mustard seed. I did not say that number theory was the path of eternal life but I used number theory as a metaphor of how I see the logic and reason of G-d works. The similarities I found interesting (like - no disagreement, there are no ambiguities, there is no veering off to the right or left) and I wondered if you had found a better metaphor with which you are familiar that you could use so that I could understand your thinking better.

Jesus used symbolism and metaphor in his teaching to help people get a better grasp on ideas he was presenting so this method of symbolic metaphor should not be strange to you. Perhaps this is difficult for you because I have offended you - for which I am sorry.

The Traveler

[SteveVH]

Consider a chess game. God against Gary Kasparov. Kasparov has the skill and ability to see most possible moves 15 moves ahead of the current game play. God has the skill and ability to see all possible moves from beginning to end of the game, and can calculate, from knowing everything about Kasparov, just what is most likely going to be each and every move Gary makes.

I don't believe God has any need to calculate anything. He is not limited to knowing what is "most likely to be each and every move", he knows with certainty every single move that is going to be made before he ever sits down at the table. He knows every single move that Mr. Kasparov will ever make in his lifetime. He know the same about us. Reason and logic are tools by which we discern truth and were given to us as a gift. God has no need for either of these as he has perfect knowledge. He has no need to "discern" truth, he already possesses it.

[Traveler]

I don't believe God has any need to calculate anything. He is not limited to knowing what is "most likely to be each and every move", he knows with certainty every single move that is going to be made before he ever sits down at the table. He knows every single move that Mr. Kasparov will ever make in his lifetime. He know the same about us. Reason and logic are tools by which we discern truth and were given to us as a gift. God has no need for either of these as he has perfect knowledge. He has no need to "discern" truth, he already possesses it.

Then the reality is that man is hardly in the image or likeness of G-d - not even a cheep knockoff imitation.

The Traveler

[SteveVH]

Then the reality is that man is hardly in the image or likeness of G-d - not even a cheep knockoff imitation.

The Traveler

Did I say that? Let me check real quick. Nope!

I guess it depends on what you mean by "image and likeness". Do you believe in God's omniscience (all-knowing)? He doesn't have to figure things out. We do. We are made in God's image and likeness in many ways, but at the same time God is infinitely above us in every way.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)

“To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?” says the Holy One. Lift your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one, and calls them each by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing." (Isaiah 40:25-26)

We are rational beings with free will and an eternal destiny. We can love. We can do good. All of these attributes are attributes of God. We have a soul in which God seeks to dwell. Through God's very life in us we become his children. We are made in God's image in many ways (the family being the strongest sign), but we should fall on our faces in humbleness when we compare ourselves to the Almighty. We should have a sense of awe and wonder when we contemplate his glory and majesty. We could say that a flame on a candle is made in the image and likeness of the sun. It has a flame which gives light and some warmth. Those are attributes of the sun. Place the candle in the sunlight, however, and its light is overwhelmed by the power of the sun. Its brightness and warmth cannot begin to compare. Even this analogy does not capture how infinitely greater God is than are we.

Edited September 22, 2012 by StephenVH

[Traveler]

Did I say that? Let me check real quick. Nope!

I guess it depends on what you mean by "image and likeness". Do you believe in God's omniscience (all-knowing)? He doesn't have to figure things out. We do. We are made in God's image and likeness in many ways, but at the same time God is infinitely above us in every way.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)

“To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?” says the Holy One. Lift your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one, and calls them each by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing." (Isaiah 40:25-26)

We are rational beings with free will and an eternal destiny. We can love. We can do good. All of these attributes are attributes of God. We have a soul in which God seeks to dwell. Through God's very life in us we become his children. We are made in God's image in many ways (the family being the strongest sign), but we should fall on our faces in humbleness when we compare ourselves to the Almighty. We should have a sense of awe and wonder when we contemplate his glory and majesty. We could say that a flame on a candle is made in the image and likeness of the sun. It has a flame which gives light and some warmth. Those are attributes of the sun. Place the candle in the sunlight, however, and its light is overwhelmed by the power of the sun. Its brightness and warmth cannot begin to compare. Even this analogy does not capture how infinitely greater God is than are we.

Review then - if you would please - what characteristics or attributes of man (if there are any in your mind) are comparable to G-ds in order to justify the scripture?

The Traveler

[SteveVH]

Review then - if you would please - what characteristics or attributes of man (if there are any in your mind) are comparable to G-ds in order to justify the scripture?

The Traveler

You mean other than those that I already stated in the post to which you were responding?

We are endowed with a spiritual and immortal soul. We participate in the light and power of the divine Spirit and are capable of understanding the order of things established by God. Through our free will, we are capable of directing ourselves toward God's true good.

Because of our soul and spiritual powers of intellect and will, we are endowed with freedom, one of the greatest manifestations of the divine image.

Within this freedom we can choose to love. This is the greatest sign of all that we are made in the image of God. When we love we are truly in the image and likeness of God who is, as John reminds us, Love himself.

[Traveler]

You mean other than those that I already stated in the post to which you were responding?

We are endowed with a spiritual and immortal soul. We participate in the light and power of the divine Spirit and are capable of understanding the order of things established by God. Through our free will, we are capable of directing ourselves toward God's true good.

Because of our soul and spiritual powers of intellect and will, we are endowed with freedom, one of the greatest manifestations of the divine image.

Within this freedom we can choose to love. This is the greatest sign of all that we are made in the image of God. When we love we are truly in the image and likeness of God who is, as John reminds us, Love himself.

Just making sure - you consider these attributes comparable to G-d? or infinitely different? -- for example do you believe that man is finite and G-d is infinite?

The Traveler

[SteveVH]

Just making sure - you consider these attributes comparable to G-d? or infinitely different? -- for example do you believe that man is finite and G-d is infinite?

The Traveler

I used the analogy of the candle flame as being in the image and likeness of the Sun. So yes, these attributes are also attributes of God, but not in degree of magnitude. We can love but we cannot love as God loves. We can do good, but we cannot do the good that God does. God does not just love, HE IS LOVE. He does not just do good, HE IS GOODNESS ITSELF. The greatest difference, however, is that we are not, by nature, divine. Only God is. Man has an immortal soul, created by God, but it is a human soul, not a divine soul by nature. We are given a divine nature by God, the gift of Himself, at the resurrection and will receive glorified bodies which will never diminish or decay.