Logic and Reason

[Traveler]

Not so. If one can only make good choices he is not a free being, but rather a robot with no choice at all.

Interesting - you and I see things very differently. Currently it appears to me that the only free person is G-d. And he only makes good choices and is not a robot. I am astonished you would argue such a thing that is so obviously not true at all. Especially for one that believes G-d is good.

In your opinion

It is hardly just my opinion - the scriptures clearly teach us that all have sined. Do you not find it odd that an all powerful G-d cannot create a a single being out of unnumbered attempts that will not sin? - we know it is possible that such a sinless being can exist and does exist - because G-d is such a being. If G-d cannot do something that by example is possible - does that limit his power and make him not an all powerful being?

Well I'm glad you find it attrtactive. I find the idea to be heretical. The idea diminishes the power of God, as if there are things in this universe over which he has no control. The idea diminishes the glory and majesty of God as the only uncreated, eternal being.

Again you are jumping to conclusions - we know for a fact that there are things that existed before this universe - G-d again is the example that proves that something that is not of this universe can influence things that occure in this universe. Have you never heard the argument by some that claim that G-d made them the way they are? But you have not answered the question concerning why G-d would create creatures that sin - unlike himself?

Again, not true. God is responsible for the existence of mankind, and of everything that exists, except evil. God certainly, mysteriously, allows evil to exist. But the origin of evil is not God, but Lucifer, as a consequence of a choice made by his own free will to rebel against God. Evil is always a possibility among rational, free-willed beings. One might say that God created the possibility for evil to exist which is implicit in one being free to choose good or evil. But God does not create evil nor is ever complicit in evil. Evil comes from satan and the heart of man.

It is not that I completely disagree with everything you say - just that I do not think you have a very complete picuture. I agree that Evil comes from that part of Satan - and as you say "the heart of man". I am just putting out the possibility to you that the part of Satan and the heart of man as you speak - are things that G-d did not create and therefore is not complicit in. It it appears we believe much the same thing - just that you cannot logically complete your argument.

The "Good News" is that God, through the sacrifice and death of his only begotten Son, has defeated evil. We can be saved from our own evil, not through some sort of eternal progression, but by the grace of a loving God.

Again I think you are missing the complete picture. G-d does not defeat evil but rather provides a way that we can be rid of evil in the same way that he has. Not just of our own evil - but the evil that other do against us. That we can be free not just of the evil we do. But through forgivness we can rid ourselves of the evil of others as well.

One of the things I find odd concerning many Christians - is that they seem to think salvation is all about them and their blessings, what they get. A very me, my blessings, my getting to heaven, my happiness, my joy, me, me, me, me attitude. It seems to me that salvation is in reality the opposit - the loosing the me - as G-d does by his example. So you see - G-d can and is creating beings like himself - it takes a long time - I believe the expression of how long is called an eternity.

The Traveler

PS I wanted to add one other thought about being rid of the evil others commit against us. Because Jesus Christ has already paid for all sins - not just ours - if we truely understand and believe that; then there is no reason to hold other accountable for their transgressions agains us. That would make us strangers to justice because all sins have been paid for by Christ. Those that have difficulity forgiving other - just do not believe in Jesus Christ and his redemptive sacrifice for the sins of mankind. If someone believes in the sacrifice of Christ there is no logical reason to not forgive others. And forgiveness also means we must forgive ourselves as well - thus it is through Jesus that we become free of sin. But that is not the end because we must turn from sin as G-d has. And the way of G-d is through discipline. The term disciple and discipline have the same root meening. When we become a disciple of Christ we begin our insturctions in discipline. These instructions are called commandments and are given by covenant so that man can through discipline become Christ like. Or as the scriptures say "one" with Jesus in the same manner that Jesus is one with the Father. I have never quite understood how trinitarians put that all together.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Traveler

[SteveVH]

Interesting - you and I see things very differently. Currently it appears to me that the only free person is G-d. And he only makes good choices and is not a robot. I am astonished you would argue such a thing that is so obviously not true at all. Especially for one that believes G-d is good.

Honestly, sometimes I feel that I am having a conversation with someone from another planet. Here is the question to which I was responding:

Originally Posted by Traveler

The problem with that kind of thinking is that in the same manner one can argue; if G-d is all powerful and all knowing he could create free beings that would make good choices on their own.

If one was created to only make good choices, one would not have a choice, would they? What in the world is so difficult to understand about that? In fact, we are only truly free when we do good, but good can only exist if there is a choice to be made. When one chooses good, he becomes more free. When one chooses sin (evil) he becomes a slave and is not free. But unless one has the choice to choose between them then free will cannot be exercised.

As far as God being the only free Person I would agree. And yes, He makes only good choices. But you are not God and neither am I. We have to deal with evil in the world and in our lives due to the choice of our first parents which is continued by our own choices. God gave us free will precisely so that we would be capable of choosing to love. That was and is His desire. But there is a catch. If one must be free to choose to love in order for love to even exist, then at the same time one must be free to choose not to love. That is called sin.

It is hardly just my opinion - the scriptures clearly teach us that all have sined. Do you not find it odd that an all powerful G-d cannot create a a single being out of unnumbered attempts that will not sin?

Well, we believe that Jesus' mother Mary was born without sin and remained so throughout her entire life. But the answer to your question is that certainly God could create beings that do not sin. We do not have to sin. But we do, you and I sin each and every day and this is by our own choice. If it was not through our own, free choice, it would not be sin. And love, if not through our own, free choice, is not love. The all important thing here though is that we have received "GOOD NEWS". Jesus Christ has conquered sin and death and offers us salvation.

we know it is possible that such a sinless being can exist and does exist - because G-d is such a being. If G-d cannot do something that by example is possible - does that limit his power and make him not an all powerful being?

Who says God can't? The point is he didn't. For love to exist we must be able to choose to love rather than to sin. Love is so important to the whole equation that it is worth the possibility of one making another choice.

Again you are jumping to conclusions - we know for a fact that there are things that existed before this universe - G-d again is the example that proves that something that is not of this universe can influence things that occure in this universe. Have you never heard the argument by some that claim that G-d made them the way they are? But you have not answered the question concerning why G-d would create creatures that sin - unlike himself?

Well, I believe I have answered the question, more than a few times.

It is not that I completely disagree with everything you say - just that I do not think you have a very complete picuture. I agree that Evil comes from that part of Satan - and as you say "the heart of man". I am just putting out the possibility to you that the part of Satan and the heart of man as you speak - are things that G-d did not create and therefore is not complicit in. It it appears we believe much the same thing - just that you cannot logically complete your argument.

My argument is very simple, Traveler. It is not that I have not explained it, it is that you are either incapable of grasping it or you choose not accept it. God created rational, free-willed beings who, of their own accord, are capable of making their own choices. We can, and many times do choose good. We also, on a regular basis, choose evil or sin. God does not make us choose either way, otherwise we would not be free. It is self-evident to every human being that we make our own choices. God cannot be complicit in the choice of a free being. Why you cannot grasp this is beyond me.

Traveler, thanks for the conversation. This is beginning to get old and we really aren't going anywhere. I can accept that you believe you exist apart from God, that you are an eternal being, that you believe God is nothing more than you, just further advanced in the line of progression. What I have learned is that our beliefs are further apart than I first believed. It is why the Catholic Church considers Mormon theology to be so far from Christianity that it is not even heretical, but rather a different religion altogether. I think I better understand how they arrived at that conclusion.

Thanks and God bless you and everyone else on this forum.

Stephen

[Traveler]

...

My argument is very simple, Traveler. It is not that I have not explained it, it is that you are either incapable of grasping it or you choose not accept it. God created rational, free-willed beings who, of their own accord, are capable of making their own choices. We can, and many times do choose good. We also, on a regular basis, choose evil or sin. God does not make us choose either way, otherwise we would not be free. It is self-evident to every human being that we make our own choices. God cannot be complicit in the choice of a free being. Why you cannot grasp this is beyond me.

The reality is - as it appears to me - we believe exactly the same thing with one small difference and that concerns where our human propensity to choose evil came from, how it originated, who created it, and who is in any way responsible for it or has contributed in any way or fashion at all to that inclination towards evil. I think we agree on on point - it really did not come from G-d - not in part or by encouragement to any degree - although I am not really sure exactly where you draw the line as to what G-d creates. As many times as I asked the question, you have answered any thing but the question. In theory I understand put in reality I am do not grasp it.

Traveler, thanks for the conversation. This is beginning to get old and we really aren't going anywhere. I can accept that you believe you exist apart from God, that you are an eternal being, that you believe God is nothing more than you, just further advanced in the line of progression. What I have learned is that our beliefs are further apart than I first believed. It is why the Catholic Church considers Mormon theology to be so far from Christianity that it is not even heretical, but rather a different religion altogether. I think I better understand how they arrived at that conclusion.

Thanks and God bless you and everyone else on this forum.

Stephen

Thank you for the conversation. I do believe in the battle for good that you are a strong allie. However, In our detailed conversations I have found that you have a proclivity to state our LDS understandings and beliefs in somewhat prejudice terms. I tend to do the same things with your beliefs.

For me, if someone ask concerning understanding of Catholic beliefs - I respond that they should talk to a devout Catholic for a truthful representation of Catholic beliefs - I really do not understand it well enough to express such beliefs properly. I hope you realize the same and that in all honesty I recommend that you personally have the same difficulty with LDS beliefs and should refrain from trying to explain our beliefs to others - especially those close to you with whom you have emotional attachments.

The Traveler

[SteveVH]

The reality is - as it appears to me - we believe exactly the same thing with one small difference and that concerns where our human propensity to choose evil came from, how it originated, who created it, and who is in any way responsible for it or has contributed in any way or fashion at all to that inclination towards evil. I think we agree on on point - it really did not come from G-d - not in part or by encouragement to any degree - although I am not really sure exactly where you draw the line as to what G-d creates. As many times as I asked the question, you have answered any thing but the question. In theory I understand put in reality I am do not grasp it.

Traveler, the first sin was committed by Lucifer. That was the origin of evil. Lucifer (now Satan) tempted our first parents to rebel against God just as he had done. Out of their own self-interest they fell for the lie and disobeyed God. So man is capable of committing evil. This doesn't mean he was created to commit evil. It means he was created as a free being capable of making his own choices, evil being one of those choices. Scripture tells us that evil comes from the heart of man:

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man." (Mark 7:21-23, KJV)

Evil, like good, is always a choice but we are not forced to choose either way. That is our decision. As I have explained several times, the reason we must have free will is so that we may love. That is God's ultimate purpose for our creation. One cannot love unless one is capable of choosing not to love. Love's very existence depends upon a choice; it cannot exist independently of a choice. God made us capable of choosing love each and every time. Because we fail often, out of his love for us he came to save us from our sins. But he did not create the evil within us. That, as Scripture tells us, is of our own making.

Thank you for the conversation. I do believe in the battle for good that you are a strong allie. However, In our detailed conversations I have found that you have a proclivity to state our LDS understandings and beliefs in somewhat prejudice terms. I tend to do the same things with your beliefs.

Thanks for pointing that out. I'll be more careful.

For me, if someone ask concerning understanding of Catholic beliefs - I respond that they should talk to a devout Catholic for a truthful representation of Catholic beliefs - I really do not understand it well enough to express such beliefs properly. I hope you realize the same and that in all honesty I recommend that you personally have the same difficulty with LDS beliefs and should refrain from trying to explain our beliefs to others - especially those close to you with whom you have emotional attachments.

Whenever I am stating what I believe to be LDS doctrine I am always open to correction and usually state just that. But honestly, Traveler, it seems that the knowledge and opinions of just what does make up LDS doctrine are so varied among LDS members that it is difficult to put a finger on. You have no equivalency to the "Catechism of the Catholic Church", for instance, that details every belief and doctrine of our Church. If I quote one of your prophets, for example, I am then told that he wasn't speaking as a prophet at that time, or that it wasn't approved. So what I put down is my understanding based upon multible conversations with Mormons. I certainly have no interest in making things up. The reality is more than enough to discuss. As far as discussing LDS beliefs with others, I certainly do and will continue and I will not refrain from trying to explain your beliefs. Believe it or not, I find myself correcting non-Mormons more often than agreeing with them. I have a lot of material, Traveler, even from this thread alone. I do my best to honestly present it when the discussion arises.

That being said, yes, there is no doubt that I carry a certain amount of bias. I think it is impossible not to. But I am aware of my bias and I think that is important. Thank you for admitting your own bias. We must always keep it in the equation.

God bless.

[Traveler]

Traveler, the first sin was committed by Lucifer. That was the origin of evil. Lucifer (now Satan) tempted our first parents to rebel against God just as he had done. Out of their own self-interest they fell for the lie and disobeyed God. So man is capable of committing evil. This doesn't mean he was created to commit evil. It means he was created as a free being capable of making his own choices, evil being one of those choices. Scripture tells us that evil comes from the heart of man:

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man." (Mark 7:21-23, KJV)

Evil, like good, is always a choice but we are not forced to choose either way. That is our decision. As I have explained several times, the reason we must have free will is so that we may love. That is God's ultimate purpose for our creation. One cannot love unless one is capable of choosing not to love. Love's very existence depends upon a choice; it cannot exist independently of a choice. God made us capable of choosing love each and every time. Because we fail often, out of his love for us he came to save us from our sins. But he did not create the evil within us. That, as Scripture tells us, is of our own making.

Thanks for pointing that out. I'll be more careful.

Whenever I am stating what I believe to be LDS doctrine I am always open to correction and usually state just that. But honestly, Traveler, it seems that the knowledge and opinions of just what does make up LDS doctrine are so varied among LDS members that it is difficult to put a finger on. You have no equivalency to the "Catechism of the Catholic Church", for instance, that details every belief and doctrine of our Church. If I quote one of your prophets, for example, I am then told that he wasn't speaking as a prophet at that time, or that it wasn't approved. So what I put down is my understanding based upon multible conversations with Mormons. I certainly have no interest in making things up. The reality is more than enough to discuss. As far as discussing LDS beliefs with others, I certainly do and will continue and I will not refrain from trying to explain your beliefs. Believe it or not, I find myself correcting non-Mormons more often than agreeing with them. I have a lot of material, Traveler, even from this thread alone. I do my best to honestly present it when the discussion arises.

That being said, yes, there is no doubt that I carry a certain amount of bias. I think it is impossible not to. But I am aware of my bias and I think that is important. Thank you for admitting your own bias. We must always keep it in the equation.

God bless.

Steve – will you do a favor for me? There is something that has bothered by about religious thinking and doctrine for a long time. I have observed that you are smart enough to realize logic and we are now getting to some core elements of thinking and understanding that I have never been able to make sense of from a religious point of view.

Can you take off your Catholic hat for a minute and I will take off my Mormon hat and let us explorer a thought together? For a very long time I have attempted to understand the nature of evil. Perhaps I should say the logic or why of evil. I understand the possibility of good and evil. I understand why there must or ought to be a choice between the two. I can understand agency and free will both requiring that the possibility of good and evil both exist. What I do not understand is how an intelligent being could choose evil? At least embrace such a choice and never give it up.

As I explorer every possible reason, I always come to the same conclusion – the intelligence that considers evil as a viable possibility is flawed. I cannot rationally produce any other reason. Either the intelligence was beguiled or tricked into making a “wrong” choice (believing a lie) or the individual did not intelligently contemplate the consequences – meaning they made the unintelligent mistake of replacing the benefits an immediate and temporary possibility in favor of the benefits of ”long term” or “forever” possibility. I cannot honestly say that is intelligent.

Jesus made a most interesting statement just prior to his death. I have heard all or near all the religious arguments about who he was talking about but the statement was “Father forgive them for they know not what they do!”

Who does know what they are doing? -- I mean really? Not Adam or Eve – they were beguiled. For myself, though I am not as good at it as others – I have been quite proficient at figuring out ways to sin but in every case it has been a mistake and a blunder – a lack of intelligence on my part if you will – not one single exception.

Do you personally believe sinning can have any lasting or eternal intelligent reason behind it? Do you see where this is going?

The Traveler

[SteveVH]

Steve – will you do a favor for me? There is something that has bothered by about religious thinking and doctrine for a long time. I have observed that you are smart enough to realize logic and we are now getting to some core elements of thinking and understanding that I have never been able to make sense of from a religious point of view.

Can you take off your Catholic hat for a minute and I will take off my Mormon hat and let us explorer a thought together? For a very long time I have attempted to understand the nature of evil. Perhaps I should say the logic or why of evil. I understand the possibility of good and evil. I understand why there must or ought to be a choice between the two. I can understand agency and free will both requiring that the possibility of good and evil both exist. What I do not understand is how an intelligent being could choose evil? At least embrace such a choice and never give it up.

First of all, Traveler, I apologize for not being around these parts for awhile. My work has kept me way too busy.

Yes, evil is an interesting subject, a mystery, really. To answer the question as to why or how an intelligent being could choose evil I think we need to look no further than ourselves. Each and every time we sin, we choose evil over good. Why? It may offer us a brief moment of pleasure. It may promise a life of wealth. Whatever the allure of sin or evil, we give in due to the weakness of our flesh, or our pride or our selfishness. Unfortunately, it has little to do with intelligence, in my opinion.

As I explorer every possible reason, I always come to the same conclusion – the intelligence that considers evil as a viable possibility is flawed.

Or might it be something other than intelligence that is the cause? I don't know about Mormon theology concerning the angels but Catholics believe that Lucifer was created with perfect intelligence. It was not his intelligence, but rather his pride that caused him to fall.

I cannot rationally produce any other reason. Either the intelligence was beguiled or tricked into making a “wrong” choice (believing a lie) or the individual did not intelligently contemplate the consequences – meaning they made the unintelligent mistake of replacing the benefits an immediate and temporary possibility in favor of the benefits of ”long term” or “forever” possibility. I cannot honestly say that is intelligent.

Jesus made a most interesting statement just prior to his death. I have heard all or near all the religious arguments about who he was talking about but the statement was “Father forgive them for they know not what they do!”

Who does know what they are doing? -- I mean really? Not Adam or Eve – they were beguiled. For myself, though I am not as good at it as others – I have been quite proficient at figuring out ways to sin but in every case it has been a mistake and a blunder – a lack of intelligence on my part if you will – not one single exception.

Do you personally believe sinning can have any lasting or eternal intelligent reason behind it? Do you see where this is going?

Yes, I think I see where you're going with this, but I still maintain that intelligence has little or nothing to do with keeping one from sin. As a matter of fact, it may even lead one closer to sin in some ways. My point is this. I think it is nearly impossible for a mentally handicapped person to sin or commit evil. By its very nature, evil requires an intelligent choice. If I am simply tricked, with no consent on my part, then I have not committed evil. Intelligence brings pride, a greater imagination, maybe stronger desires in some areas. I know that, at least in my Church, the degree of one's intelligence says nothing about their holiness. One can be very simple and lead a very holy life, and that is what counts in the end. When we are made new in the resurrection, we will have perfect intelligence and perfect holiness as well.

Its a very interesting topic, Traveler. I'll give it some more thought. We explain the whole thing through original sin which changed our human nature to one that tends toward sin. It is a struggle for us not to sin. After the resurrection we will not have this with which to deal.

God bless.

Edited November 20, 2012 by StephenVH

[Traveler]

First of all, Traveler, I apologize for not being around these parts for awhile. My work has kept me way too busy.

Yes, evil is an interesting subject, a mystery, really. To answer the question as to why or how an intelligent being could choose evil I think we need to look no further than ourselves. Each and every time we sin, we choose evil over good. Why? It may offer us a brief moment of pleasure. It may promise a life of wealth. Whatever the allure of sin or evil, we give in due to the weakness of our flesh, or our pride or our selfishness. Unfortunately, it has little to do with intelligence, in my opinion.

I am a scientist and consulting engineer in the fields of automation, robotics and artificial intelligence. The simplest way for me to describe my understanding of intelligence from my background is the ability to learn. Many try to define intelligence from the standpoint of access to information. But that is flawed for many reasons that I will cover at the end of this particular post - as you have pointed out (I think) because intelligence is not just access to information but what we do with it once we have accessed it.

Or might it be something other than intelligence that is the cause? I don't know about Mormon theology concerning the angels but Catholics believe that Lucifer was created with perfect intelligence. It was not his intelligence, but rather his pride that caused him to fall.

Is it therefore intelligent to render one's self to be governed by their pride? For me pride is without question an obstacle to learning the truth. Obviously pride is a flaw, limitation indicating something missing in intelligence - in that someone has completely misjudged their own importance in the overall scheme of things. They deduce and therefore believe something that in reality is not true. (Perhaps this is why Satan is called the Father of lies.) If someone understands correctly (especially as G-d does) the importance of others as well as the overall and eternal possibility and scheme of things , they would not - could not - be prideful. Obviously there were "lessons" that Satan did not learn - indeed cannot learn. For me - the inability to learn is a flaw of intelligence.

Yes, I think I see where you're going with this, but I still maintain that intelligence has little or nothing to do with keeping one from sin. As a matter of fact, it may even lead one closer to sin in some ways. My point is this. I think it is nearly impossible for a mentally handicapped person to sin or commit evil. By its very nature, evil requires an intelligent choice. If I am simply tricked, with no consent on my part, then I have not committed evil. Intelligence brings pride, a greater imagination, maybe stronger desires in some areas. I know that, at least in my Church, the degree of one's intelligence says nothing about their holiness. One can be very simple and lead a very holy life, and that is what counts in the end. When we are made new in the resurrection, we will have perfect intelligence and perfect holiness as well.

How can anyone be tricked with no consent? I do not understand that at all. The whole purpose to trick someone is to obtain their consent by fraud - concerning something that without the trick they would not give their consent. I see trickery only as a "backdoor" means of forcing someone against their "true" will.

According to LDS theology - "The glory of G-d is intelligence" - which we believe is the light of truth. Again many a fellow scientist thinks that the obtaining of information is the essence of intelligence. To LDS intelligence is more closely associated with the scriptural context of wisdom. Thus we distinguish between knowing and wisdom (intelligence) in the same manner as the ancient scriptures do. So in the manner that you may think of Satan as not wise - we LDS (at least I do) think of Satan as not intelligent.

Its a very interesting topic, Traveler. I'll give it some more thought. We explain the whole thing through original sin which changed our human nature to one that tends toward sin. It is a struggle for us not to sin. After the resurrection we will not have this with which to deal.

God bless.

A popular scripture to many LDS is James 1:5

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Using the concept of intelligence as wisdom - we believe that we may become more intelligent by asking for intelligence from G-d. Indeed we can obtain the intelligence from G-d that will lead us or anyone else away from sin to freedom by intelligently utilizing the truth.

The Traveler

[SteveVH]

I am a scientist and consulting engineer in the fields of automation, robotics and artificial intelligence. The simplest way for me to describe my understanding of intelligence from my background is the ability to learn. Many try to define intelligence from the standpoint of access to information. But that is flawed for many reasons that I will cover at the end of this particular post - as you have pointed out (I think) because intelligence is not just access to information but what we do with it once we have accessed it.

Is it therefore intelligent to render one's self to be governed by their pride? For me pride is without question an obstacle to learning the truth. Obviously pride is a flaw, limitation indicating something missing in intelligence - in that someone has completely misjudged their own importance in the overall scheme of things. They deduce and therefore believe something that in reality is not true. (Perhaps this is why Satan is called the Father of lies.) If someone understands correctly (especially as G-d does) the importance of others as well as the overall and eternal possibility and scheme of things , they would not - could not - be prideful. Obviously there were "lessons" that Satan did not learn - indeed cannot learn. For me - the inability to learn is a flaw of intelligence.

Very interesting stuff here, Traveler. I am assuming that we would define "intelligence" pretty much in the same terms. It is mainly the ability to reason, to imagine, to exercise our will. Maybe a good question would be to ask about the origin of pride, of selfishness, of anger, of all those things that harm us because they cause us to sin. Are they a product of our intelligence, or do they originate elsewhere? I realize that we have taken off our respective Catholic and Mormon hats at this point but I would like you to consider something that I have learned through my faith. Just take it as a theory for the sake of this discussion.

We believe that man is made of spirit, soul (or intellect) and flesh. If one of these elements is missing, one is not human. In the beginning our spirit, which communicates with God, informed our intellect, or soul, which then directed the flesh. After the fall, mankind experienced a spiritual death. His intellect was no longer informed by his spirit, but rather the flesh became even stronger. We are now in a constant battle between the flesh and the intellect. How many times do we hear people say "I just wish I had more will power"?

My point is that we fail so often, in contradiction to our intelligence (what we know we should do) because of the flesh and that happens to be the human condition. I also think that it is possible, with God's help, to overcome the flesh, however this is rarely accomplished by most.

How can anyone be tricked with no consent?

If I sign something that I would not otherwise sign without being tricked into it, then I have not given my consent to that which is being signed. Had I known the truth I would not have signed it, therefore my consent was never given.

According to LDS theology - "The glory of G-d is intelligence" - which we believe is the light of truth. Again many a fellow scientist thinks that the obtaining of information is the essence of intelligence. To LDS intelligence is more closely associated with the scriptural context of wisdom. Thus we distinguish between knowing and wisdom (intelligence) in the same manner as the ancient scriptures do. So in the manner that you may think of Satan as not wise - we LDS (at least I do) think of Satan as not intelligent.

I would say the glory of God is Love. Yes, he is all-knowing, perfectly intelligent, but as the scritpures tell us, without love everything is worthless. Love is God's essence.

I would also differ as to your comment that "the obtaining of information is the essence of intelligence". Intelligence is the capacity to learn, to reason, to store knowledge. One can be intelligent and still be ignorant. I would say the obtaining of information is the essence of knowledge, but knowledge and intelligence differ in meaning. As for Satan, intelligence has nothing to do with holiness or for ones capacity to commit evil. Satan is plenty intelligent, intelligent enough apparently to trick Adam and Eve. His evil came from his pride, not his intelligence, at least in my opinion.

Using the concept of intelligence as wisdom - we believe that we may become more intelligent by asking for intelligence from G-d. Indeed we can obtain the intelligence from G-d that will lead us or anyone else away from sin to freedom by intelligently utilizing the truth.

The Traveler

We believe that we are saved by the grace of God, not by obtaining knowedge. That doesn't mean we should not seek knowledge, especially knowledge of God, but that is not what saves us. It is God's grace that leads us away from sin and toward God. All have fallen short.

Nice conversing with you again, I'll try to be more prompt in my responses in the future.

Steve

[Traveler]

Very interesting stuff here, Traveler. I am assuming that we would define "intelligence" pretty much in the same terms. It is mainly the ability to reason, to imagine, to exercise our will. Maybe a good question would be to ask about the origin of pride, of selfishness, of anger, of all those things that harm us because they cause us to sin. Are they a product of our intelligence, or do they originate elsewhere? I realize that we have taken off our respective Catholic and Mormon hats at this point but I would like you to consider something that I have learned through my faith. Just take it as a theory for the sake of this discussion.

We believe that man is made of spirit, soul (or intellect) and flesh. If one of these elements is missing, one is not human. In the beginning our spirit, which communicates with God, informed our intellect, or soul, which then directed the flesh. After the fall, mankind experienced a spiritual death. His intellect was no longer informed by his spirit, but rather the flesh became even stronger. We are now in a constant battle between the flesh and the intellect. How many times do we hear people say "I just wish I had more will power"?

My point is that we fail so often, in contradiction to our intelligence (what we know we should do) because of the flesh and that happens to be the human condition. I also think that it is possible, with God's help, to overcome the flesh, however this is rarely accomplished by most.

If I sign something that I would not otherwise sign without being tricked into it, then I have not given my consent to that which is being signed. Had I known the truth I would not have signed it, therefore my consent was never given.

I would say the glory of God is Love. Yes, he is all-knowing, perfectly intelligent, but as the scritpures tell us, without love everything is worthless. Love is God's essence.

I would also differ as to your comment that "the obtaining of information is the essence of intelligence". Intelligence is the capacity to learn, to reason, to store knowledge. One can be intelligent and still be ignorant. I would say the obtaining of information is the essence of knowledge, but knowledge and intelligence differ in meaning. As for Satan, intelligence has nothing to do with holiness or for ones capacity to commit evil. Satan is plenty intelligent, intelligent enough apparently to trick Adam and Eve. His evil came from his pride, not his intelligence, at least in my opinion.

We believe that we are saved by the grace of God, not by obtaining knowedge. That doesn't mean we should not seek knowledge, especially knowledge of God, but that is not what saves us. It is God's grace that leads us away from sin and toward God. All have fallen short.

Nice conversing with you again, I'll try to be more prompt in my responses in the future.

Steve

There are some interesting considerations to intelligence as we continue our discussion and drill deeper into thought. In the fields of science there are levels, states or steps to “higher” or more “enlightened” intelligences. One aspect that was believed for a long time that separates humans from animals is what is called self awareness. However, experiments show that some animals, in particular, for discussion, the gorilla named Coco that was taught to sign and dolphins also show self identification. However, even with such intelligence there still remains a higher form of self awareness in humans. None-the-less it seems to me that many of the traits you have listed in a negative light (pride, selfishness and anger) all have roots in the level of intelligence that elevates to a state of self awareness.

From my own analysis, self awareness is an aspect of higher intelligence but there is another intelligent trait that science has identified as evolutionary and somewhat unique to humans. That is the propensity and advantage for higher intelligence to establish symbolic relationships with other life forms. There is in mathematics an “intellectually” or logically identifiable structure that shows similarities for all the higher ordered or more complex life forms. These logical relationships are called fractals and are referenced by Steven Hawkins in purporting his theory that the creation of all things that exist can be explained by the laws of Physics. Fractals mathematically explain very well the higher intelligence of more complex (complex meaning connected to other) life forms. We may want to explorer the two forces of self or selfishness verses the concept of creating bonded relationships as intelligent opportunities.

But there is one other interesting aspect of intelligence that is also very prevalent and more advanced in humans than in any other species. I think it is vital to our conversation. It is what is called the intelligence of anticipation or if you will - the ability to logically foretell or predict the future. This is seen in the ability of a sniper able to pick off moving targets at a distance. The human intelligence is especially adapted to calculating where a moving target will be in intervals of time. We are also adept at “calculating” what will happen after certain events take place. Indeed the game of chess is won by anticipating the moves of one’s opponent before they make their various moves. So ingrained is this ability to anticipate that scientist have established that up to 80% of our perceptions are based on what our mind perceives and resolves based on anticipation rather than what is at any given moment.

I have highlighted these three attributes of indications of intelligence for a reason. It appears to me that as we understand and imagine divine attributes these 3 are the basis of how we understand and perceive G-d and our fellow men - from which all other concepts (according to Christ) follow.

You may want to think on these three concepts and how we learn and develop in the image and likeness of G-d or how such things separate man and his destiny from the beasts and other living or intelligent entities. You have also brought into the conversation two important aspects of understanding - that is the love and the salvation of man (being saved by grace) and what knowledge or intelligence that saves us. I would submit to the honestly pursue such a discussion we ought to recognize such knowledge as attributes of G-d but also attributes into which we also must become invested with G-d - as it relates to what I highlighted in self awareness balanced with a divine symbiosis.

The Traveler

[SteveVH]

There are some interesting considerations to intelligence as we continue our discussion and drill deeper into thought. In the fields of science there are levels, states or steps to “higher” or more “enlightened” intelligences. One aspect that was believed for a long time that separates humans from animals is what is called self awareness. However, experiments show that some animals, in particular, for discussion, the gorilla named Coco that was taught to sign and dolphins also show self identification. However, even with such intelligence there still remains a higher form of self awareness in humans. None-the-less it seems to me that many of the traits you have listed in a negative light (pride, selfishness and anger) all have roots in the level of intelligence that elevates to a state of self awareness.

And so would you say that the more intelligent and self-aware one becomes the less pridefull, selfish and angry one should be? I find it to be just the opposite. Have you ever been around a down syndrome child? I have never known a person who is more loving and more giving of themselves, who radiate such purity and innocence. Alternatively I have known some very intelligent people who were compeletely full of themselves, arrogant, selfish and pridefull. Just something to consider. It is my contention that these attributes have nothing to do with one's intellegence quota, but rather the purity of their soul which comes from the grace of God.

From my own analysis, self awareness is an aspect of higher intelligence but there is another intelligent trait that science has identified as evolutionary and somewhat unique to humans. That is the propensity and advantage for higher intelligence to establish symbolic relationships with other life forms. There is in mathematics an “intellectually” or logically identifiable structure that shows similarities for all the higher ordered or more complex life forms. These logical relationships are called fractals and are referenced by Steven Hawkins in purporting his theory that the creation of all things that exist can be explained by the laws of Physics. Fractals mathematically explain very well the higher intelligence of more complex (complex meaning connected to other) life forms. We may want to explorer the two forces of self or selfishness verses the concept of creating bonded relationships as intelligent opportunities.

Well, to be honest you have lost me. I don't know what you mean by creating "symbolic relationships with other life forms". Do you mean symbiotic relationships possibly? And please explain what you mean by "bonded relationships as intelligent opportunities." Thanks.

Steven Hawkins (an avid atheist and anti-Christian) does not have the answer to the origin of the existence of all things. And I submit that he cannot ever attain that answser without considering a Creator. Even the "Big Bang" theory must answer the question of the origin of the matter and energy that caused such an event. To say that it always existed does not work if the scientific method is followed. The empirical evidence surrounding us is overwhelming. All things come from something else. Nothing exists of its own power. It exists as a consequence of a prior cause. This discussion is made difficult by our opposing understandings of matter and energy. I believe that all that exists has been created and has its source in God. You believe that energy and matter are co-eternal with God, therefore existing apart from God, somehow coming into existence by their own power independent of God's creative power. Please correct me if I have mistated anything here.

But there is one other interesting aspect of intelligence that is also very prevalent and more advanced in humans than in any other species. I think it is vital to our conversation. It is what is called the intelligence of anticipation or if you will - the ability to logically foretell or predict the future. This is seen in the ability of a sniper able to pick off moving targets at a distance. The human intelligence is especially adapted to calculating where a moving target will be in intervals of time. We are also adept at “calculating” what will happen after certain events take place. Indeed the game of chess is won by anticipating the moves of one’s opponent before they make their various moves. So ingrained is this ability to anticipate that scientist have established that up to 80% of our perceptions are based on what our mind perceives and resolves based on anticipation rather than what is at any given moment.

I have highlighted these three attributes of indications of intelligence for a reason. It appears to me that as we understand and imagine divine attributes these 3 are the basis of how we understand and perceive G-d and our fellow men - from which all other concepts (according to Christ) follow

You may want to think on these three concepts and how we learn and develop in the image and likeness of G-d or how such things separate man and his destiny from the beasts and other living or intelligent entities. You have also brought into the conversation two important aspects of understanding - that is the love and the salvation of man (being saved by grace) and what knowledge or intelligence that saves us. I would submit to the honestly pursue such a discussion we ought to recognize such knowledge as attributes of G-d but also attributes into which we also must become invested with G-d - as it relates to what I highlighted in self awareness balanced with a divine symbiosis.

The Traveler

Again, this is all very interesting, but I think a key ingredient is missing. I have no idea what the Mormon position is on the "soul", but in my faith tradition the soul is what separates us from the animals. It is the part of us that animals are missing. The soul is the origin of our intellect. Not only are we able to calculate a moving target (so can a frog calculate the movement of a fly and nail it almost every time, or a lion accurately predict the movement of an antelope) but we are able to imagine, to reason, to freely choose and most of all, to love. It is the soul in which we are made in the image of God. Science can answer things concerning the natural world. It cannot answer things concerning the supernatural world. Steven Hawkins cannot answer the question as to why one would give his life for another. There is a joke that hits this on the head:

An athiest heart surgeon and a Christian brain surgeon met at a party and began discussing the meaning of life. The Athiest heart surgeon said "I've cut open hundreds of bodies and I've never seen a soul". The Christian brain surgeon replied "I have cut open hundreds of skulls and I've never seen a thought."

Edited November 25, 2012 by StephenVH

[Traveler]

And so would you say that the more intelligent and self-aware one becomes the less pridefull, selfish and angry one should be? I find it to be just the opposite. Have you ever been around a down syndrome child? I have never known a person who is more loving and more giving of themselves, who radiate such purity and innocence. Alternatively I have known some very intelligent people who were compeletely full of themselves, arrogant, selfish and pridefull. Just something to consider. It is my contention that these attributes have nothing to do with one's intellegence quota, but rather the purity of their soul which comes from the grace of God.

Self-aware is an indication of higher intelligence. Although this is considered as an "single" ability or quantum step it is seldom seen equally in all subjects that have developed the trait to have the same "intensity". Also keep in mind that intelligence is the ability to learn. For example the traits of being completely full of themselves, arrogant, selfish and prideful are all acquired or learned behaviors that have roots in self awareness but are not necessary in all individuals with highly developed self awareness capabilities. If you want detailed proof of what is taking place; I would refer you the the 2004 March addition of the Nation Geographic Mag. which explains this concept in terms suited for those not as studied. The articles are about how the human brain develops as an individual "learns". This learning and brain developing processes is what bring about habits - we we may get into at a future time but right now could confuse the issue.

In the case of down syndrome the brain is different at birth and though a child with down syndrome has some "kindness" attributes, self awareness it is not as pronounced as with "normal" children. They will not develop or learn the levels of fear and anger when abused and thus (for example) would not serve well in a defensive capacity in the military or as a policeman. The reason G-d has created them with such limitation is not explained well in scripture yet there are many theories - It is my personal belief that for what-ever the reason that G-d has created them with such limitations that in the resurrection they will not remain limited and that we should view their limitation as a temporary condition that they have for this life only - that in eternity that they will have every opportunity and possibility that any human has without the accountability that most of us must face. This may in part be the reason why. I personally believe that the reason is likely to something to do concerning something about them that existed before they were born. In fact I am a bit surprised that you believe G-d to have created them with a more pure soul - which again begs the question of why G-d (if creation comes from nothing) would create some with more pure souls and other with less pure souls?

Back to the concern you have will pride and selfishness. These learned traits come from self awareness but also come from not learning or acquiring the traits that come from being aware of others and their needs and concerns. It comes from not learning and being intelligent about understanding self and exercising one's intelligence to understand the same needs and feelings in others to form symbiotic relationships. It is the learning of the advantages of working with others that allows an individual to not over compensate anger and fears for the good of others - This, however, is usually the more difficult concept to balance and grasp.

Well, to be honest you have lost me. I don't know what you mean by creating "symbolic relationships with other life forms". Do you mean symbiotic relationships possibly? And please explain what you mean by "bonded relationships as intelligent opportunities." Thanks.

Sorry I did not explain symbolic very well - Mathematics is a symbolic representation. We use mathematical formulas to symbolically represent various concepts. Fractals are the mathematical formulas that provide the similar ratios of elements that exist - usually in similar things that are different in size or magnitude.

Steven Hawkins (an avid atheist and anti-Christian) does not have the answer to the origin of the existence of all things. And I submit that he cannot ever attain that answser without considering a Creator. Even the "Big Bang" theory must answer the question of the origin of the matter and energy that caused such an event.

I have sympathy for Steven Hawkins. However, he is stuck in what you would call the "traditional" concepts of G-d and Christianity. It is not so much that he has rejected G-d and Christ as much as he recognizes that a G-d that created the universe outside of known and understood physical laws (laws of physics) is not necessary to explain and understand all that is currently observable concerning creation. Many within the religious community see such observations as an assault against their defined core concept ofs G-d that I believe have convinced Mr. Hawkins that he is an atheist. But I see this as the condition that must result from understanding verifiable elements of reality without realizing or considering other "possibilities".

To say that it always existed does not work if the scientific method is followed. The empirical evidence surrounding us is overwhelming. All things come from something else. Nothing exists of its own power. It exists as a consequence of a prior cause. This discussion is made difficult by our opposing understandings of matter and energy. I believe that all that exists has been created and has its source in God. You believe that energy and matter are co-eternal with God, therefore existing apart from God, somehow coming into existence by their own power independent of God's creative power. Please correct me if I have mistated anything here.

We know from science that matter and energy are different representations of the same "stuff". Like you I believe that G-d created matter and energy. The difference as I see it is that I have accepted the possibility that G-d engineered and planned out the laws of physics for this universe so that matter and energy could behave according to these laws of physics under the "intelligence" of G-d to "naturally" result in the creation. Thus a "supernatural" G-d is not necessary and I see the laws of physics as the result of an intelligent G-d utilizing the "stuff" that in reality does exist beyond the concepts you have of matter and energy and that would continue to exist when what we understand as matter and energy would become undone. The fact that G-d did not magically snap his fingers and - walla there is the universe but rather the universe is explained symbolically in scriptures as taking place in phases of time - would indicate that G-d is in reality not supernatural but following the prescribed laws of physics that he methodically put in place for this universe and the "stuff" that comprises it.

Again, this is all very interesting, but I think a key ingredient is missing. I have no idea what the Mormon position is on the "soul", but in my faith tradition the soul is what separates us from the animals. It is the part of us that animals are missing. The soul is the origin of our intellect. Not only are we able to calculate a moving target (so can a frog calculate the movement of a fly and nail it almost every time, or a lion accurately predict the movement of an antelope) but we are able to imagine, to reason, to freely choose and most of all, to love. It is the soul in which we are made in the image of God. Science can answer things concerning the natural world. It cannot answer things concerning the supernatural world. Steven Hawkins cannot answer the question as to why one would give his life for another. There is a joke that hits this on the head:

An athiest heart surgeon and a Christian brain surgeon met at a party and began discussing the meaning of life. The Athiest heart surgeon said "I've cut open hundreds of bodies and I've never seen a soul". The Christian brain surgeon replied "I have cut open hundreds of skulls and I've never seen a thought."

I need to respond to these questions at another time. In my previous post I highlighted 3 different aspects of intelligence that separate man from other creatures. The three are self awareness, the ability to comprehend the future and to establish "oneness" with other intelligent creatures. But these aspects of intelligence are not an exist or does not exist aspect but rather there is a definite level in humans not possible in other creatures. I also submit that G-d has the same intelligent attributes and maintains then intelligently in balance. That he created for us the conditions where we can "learn" to maintain such attributes as he does.

The Traveler

[X33ad]

Everything comes from God

Read socrotes meets Jesus by Peter keeft