We are doomed!

[Traveler]

I started a thread called National Debt. Currently our national debt is touted at being somewhere in the neighborhood of 16 trillion dollars – that sum is so great I do not believe that we have any clue what it really means. However, I have discovered that the 16 trillion dollars is not really accurate and hardly the tip of the preverbal ice burg. The reason is that the debt number does not take into account what is the unfunded entitlement and liabilities. The unfunded entitlements and liabilities are monies that have been allocated by law but have not been paid yet nor have any funds been set aside or any preparations made to make payment. Some examples are cost of living increases build into Social Security and other entitlements and federal employee pension funds.

If we add into our debt the unfunded entitlements and liabilities it is estimated by the U.S. Department of Commerce Bureau of Economic Analysis that the national debt would exceed 60% of GDP which most economists agree is the point of no return. Which means, my friends and neighbors, that we have already passed the point of inevitable and certain economic collapse and that we are entering an economic crisis far worse than the great depression.

I am not sure that even a year supply is close to sufficient. And as a note – I do not think the outcome of the upcoming election will make any difference.

The Traveler

[RipplecutBuddha]

This would be true assuming the health care bill is never repealed. As it is now, if it were repealed in the first year, much of the unfunded danger would simply not happen.

To be sure, we're in for a tough row no matter what, but the sooner we can get our priorities straightened up, the sooner we can return to building a nation for our children, rather than a retirement colony for ourselves, the easier it will be. The longer we wait, it will only continue to get worse.

As it is now, there's a part of me that thinks we need to collapse financially to get our national heads out of the sand, regardless of the pain.

[NeuroTypical]

Here is a pretty good way to visualize the sheer quantities we're talking about.

xkcd: Money

[applepansy]

As I understand it the world is in debt? Correct? Or am I wrong on that?

When I had two young children my mom told me about something that happened at the dinner table with my younger siblings (all teenagers and all working).j Someone owed someone $5. He pulled out a $5 from their pocket and paid off the debt. Then that person turned to another sibling and paid off the $5 she owed. And so forth around the table. Mom said about $30 of debt was paid off with that $5. It was a good lesson in economics for my younger siblings and a good example for me.

[NeuroTypical]

"Who is this 'America' of which you speak? We are the Confederated Federatory Entity of Southern Canada!, and we don't go into debt."

News at 11.

[Sharky]

The reason is that the debt number does not take into account what is the unfunded entitlement and liabilities. The unfunded entitlements and liabilities are monies that have been allocated by law but have not been paid yet nor have any funds been set aside or any preparations made to make payment. Some examples are cost of living increases build into Social Security and other entitlements and federal employee pension funds.

Annual Government Budgets are also very problematic adding to the problem.

They budget each year only a few million to things like Wildfire Suppression & Restoration knowing that they will in fact spend tens or hundreds of millions of dollars, but not knowing how much.

Disaster Response/Recovery & victims assistance programs are also allotted in the budgets less then 15% of what the government spends annually on hurricane, tornado, drought, & other disaster response & recovery & assistance.

This has been a long-standing policy in Washington & has been used by many states to achieve a "balanced budget", to only budget small amounts to these "unknowns" even though it is widely known & accepted that they will incure much larger expenses in the course of the year.

These aren't circumstances where the government can say, "Ooops, no budget left, quit fighting fires". These function will be performed & funded, budget or no budget, so minimizing "Projected costs" has become a standard practice in government budgets.

Eventually such a funding system crumbles.

No one, not you, not I, not the government can ever realistically approach a debt crises without first acknowledging that the budget unrealistically omits or minimizes known expenses.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Sharky

[talisyn]

Who exactly owns this trillions of dollars of debt the USA owes?

[Guest]

As I understand it the world is in debt? Correct? Or am I wrong on that?

When I had two young children my mom told me about something that happened at the dinner table with my younger siblings (all teenagers and all working).j Someone owed someone $5. He pulled out a $5 from their pocket and paid off the debt. Then that person turned to another sibling and paid off the $5 she owed. And so forth around the table. Mom said about $30 of debt was paid off with that $5. It was a good lesson in economics for my younger siblings and a good example for me.

What was the good lesson in economics you learned? Because, the lesson is absent in this exercise. The lesson is that, people make money out of the interest of such loans. So, the more people owe money, the more money you create through interest. So that, your $5 just made... say, $6 worth of interest all around the table.

[Guest]

If we add into our debt the unfunded entitlements and liabilities it is estimated by the U.S. Department of Commerce Bureau of Economic Analysis that the national debt would exceed 60% of GDP which most economists agree is the point of no return. Which means, my friends and neighbors, that we have already passed the point of inevitable and certain economic collapse and that we are entering an economic crisis far worse than the great depression.

The Traveler

It's already figured into that $16T number.

Who exactly owns this trillions of dollars of debt the USA owes?

That's why I said the entitlements are already worked into that $16T number. We owe most of that number from Dollar investors both domestic and foreign (bond and currency holders) and future entitlements - that is, things like Social Security and Medicare of the future (the government spends contributions to these programs as it hits the system, and it's not only appropriated for current benefit payouts) and other things like military pensions, etc.

The rest of the money is owed to the States and the Federal Reserve who buys the treasuries to control interest rates.

Interestingly, China only holds around $1T of that debt and Japan holds around $1T also. So yeah, we don't really owe much of that money to China. We owe our kids a lot more than we owe China.

[NoxNullaEgetDeumPerfectum]

You know something that could really help is dismantling our offensive military capabilities. We have a huge Military Industrial Complex, larger than what we can support. To keep it going requires war and arms trade in any conflict and nation. We need real 'talks' with our 'enemies' and step out of other nations buisnesses and soverignty. We can no longer support this structure.

If we are liberators and a country for peace, why must we have a military so big to take on the entire world. Not occupy the entire world by war, but engage the entire worlds armies together. We need a defensive military structure, and industry back at home. So if ever needed we can mass produce the equipment we need. Plus even with our defensive army, we would still be a force to rekon with.

I do not understand why a nation proceeds to have such a huge military without the funds to support, it is surviving on money we do not have. The economy will tank. We can interact with the world and we can do this still without such a huge military.

The soviet union collapsed to over extensive military, and only when it collapsed did it disapear. No funds. Do we have to have a collapse for this? Even if it finnaly does fall apart, there will be lots of civil unrest in the Nation. As well if you owe mortgage to a bank, pay it off. Any debts, pay it off.

In the crisis home removal may occure and forced debt payment. Whether by taking your belongings and home or imprisonment to serve time for your debt. This can be done, look at some of the new and old executive laws we have in place.

[MattS]

Well there is no question that the debt will have to be paid back, of course it'll have to be paid back.

I am an Australian, so I wont be paying the U.S. government debt, but you only need an elementary understanding of economics to know that it will have to be paid back, and the way it will have to be paid back is either through CUT, TAX INCREASES or BOTH.

There is no other way to do it.

One thing the U.S. Congress could do straight away is abolish agricultural subsidies. Why are businesses (farms) being funded by the government? I thought the United States was a capitalist economy where commodities traded freely, and people took calculated risks to go into business?

I guess, the government lobby groups are the biggest reason for your government debt, perhaps they should be done away with as well?

[MattS]

As I understand it the world is in debt? Correct? Or am I wrong on that?

When I had two young children my mom told me about something that happened at the dinner table with my younger siblings (all teenagers and all working).j Someone owed someone $5. He pulled out a $5 from their pocket and paid off the debt. Then that person turned to another sibling and paid off the $5 she owed. And so forth around the table. Mom said about $30 of debt was paid off with that $5. It was a good lesson in economics for my younger siblings and a good example for me.

Yes, the world is in debt, but my nation (Australia) can service our debt... in fact before the Global Financial Crisis we had NO government debt, and a surplus which was growing by the billions each year.

This meant that during the Global Financial Crisis (GFC), we were in a position where our government could make a calculated decision to go into debt, we we fully set up for it. There was no debt ceiling crisis, the government simply made a decision to support the economy to see the nation through.

So what did they do? The government did not bail out banks because our banks were strong. Prior to the GFC, there was reasonable financial regulation, meaning our banks only leant to people who could reasonably afford to service their debt. There was no sub-prime crisis here.

Instead, the debt went to building infrastructure such as new school buildings (classrooms, science labs, libraries etc), as well as roads and other productive infrastructure.

This construction supported jobs, the money flowed through the economy, it multiplied and Australia did not go into recession. In fact, we have not seen a recession for over 20 years.

We have good governance, reasonable regulation, a market economy and we are owed money. We have loaned money to the IMF and World Bank to prop-up European economies, and why should we forgive it?

Those nations CHOSE their irresponsible monetary, fiscal and regulatory policies, and they suffered the consequences of those choices. It is the same with the United States, it CHOSE to spend beyond its means, it chose its fiscal policies, it chose its monetary policies and it chose not to (or failed to) regulate its financial institutions properly.

I am all for a free market, but there needs to be laws which govern it.

Our federal government is now heading back to having surpluses, so we'll start paying off our debt by making the hard funding decisions and by cutting spending.

.

Edited October 23, 2012 by MattS

[Sharky]

Who exactly owns this trillions of dollars of debt the USA owes?

PART of the debt is simply one government agency owing another.

The Social Security Trust Fund has been borrowed from since it's inception. Initially & for many years there were more $$ coming in then what were being paid out. That set it up as a prime source to borrow from. Today, the fund borrows to make the payments rather then recalling the moneys other agencies have borrowed from the fund.

During the last "debt ceiling" debate in congress the point was made that if the Social Security Trust Fund recalled just 2% or 3% of all the $$ that have been borrowed from the fund over the years that the national debt would drop enough that there would be no need to raise the debt ceiling until after the 2012 elections.

Just 2 or 3%!

So to some degree the National Debt as we see it is deceiving as it includes the debt of one goverment agency borrowing from another government agency, the debt of the goverment borrowing from itself.

I don't point that out to minimize the seriousness of the situation but more to emphasize that the only way to resolve the issue or balance the budget is to be realistic and frankly honest about the debt .....

A basic principal that applies not only to the governemnt but our own personal finances as well.

[Irishcolleen]

Have you ever looked at the Real Time National Debt Clock? It will give you nightmares.

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time

We go $1,000,000 every 45 seconds.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Irishcolleen

[Guest]

You know something that could really help is dismantling our offensive military capabilities. We have a huge Military Industrial Complex, larger than what we can support. To keep it going requires war and arms trade in any conflict and nation. We need real 'talks' with our 'enemies' and step out of other nations buisnesses and soverignty. We can no longer support this structure.

If we are liberators and a country for peace, why must we have a military so big to take on the entire world. Not occupy the entire world by war, but engage the entire worlds armies together. We need a defensive military structure, and industry back at home. So if ever needed we can mass produce the equipment we need. Plus even with our defensive army, we would still be a force to rekon with.

I do not understand why a nation proceeds to have such a huge military without the funds to support, it is surviving on money we do not have. The economy will tank. We can interact with the world and we can do this still without such a huge military.

The soviet union collapsed to over extensive military, and only when it collapsed did it disapear. No funds. Do we have to have a collapse for this? Even if it finnaly does fall apart, there will be lots of civil unrest in the Nation. As well if you owe mortgage to a bank, pay it off. Any debts, pay it off.

In the crisis home removal may occure and forced debt payment. Whether by taking your belongings and home or imprisonment to serve time for your debt. This can be done, look at some of the new and old executive laws we have in place.

This is naive at best.

"Talk" with our enemies? Okay, imagine this - Netanyahu talking with Ahmadinejad and saying, what? "Please, please let as live... don't wipe us off the face of the planet, please, please... We'll give Palestine Jerusalem, how about that?"

Organize all the military in the word? Like how - "Okay, Mr. Putin, we're going to dismantle our offensive capabilities, so make sure Mr. Jong-Il don't get too big for his britches, ok, because, you know, we can't do anything unless he goes and attacks us over here."

You don't ever want to dismantle your military's offensive capabilities. It's an open invitation to every kook out there - and there are many of them - to wreck havoc everywhere. Places like the Philippines cannot wage their own war against these kooks. Without the US OFFENSIVE military, the Philippines would be a Japanese island.

[NoxNullaEgetDeumPerfectum]

It is that thinking anatess that has the American people in a noose. We all seem to have been convinced we can be invaded and bombed to oblivion. I do worry about israel. Ahmendinijhad is one crazy man and so is North Korea. Russia is easy to talk to and there only worried about our interests in the middle east.

What could be done instead of sanction Iran to the point of no return is talks, and i will show you how. First let me point out these sanctions are morally wrong. These sanctions do not hurt the goverment but its people. We are trying to bring about revolution by these sanctions. All the while though people will be starving( famine) because of these sanctions. Living conditions will become worse. When its all over and if they do overthrow the regieme is there hate over? Who put them in those horrible conditions? They will direct tha thate to the west with more intrigue than ever before.

If it is still possible, becuase time is running out, we need to talk to Iran. What could be done is to go and talk and say hey, we will lift these sanctions, we will step out of your buisness, we will let you govern yourselves, and we will let you and your people live in peace. You can also seek out your nuclear power for the benefit of your people. But if you as so much as get a nuke, but also show signs of using that nuke we will strike and make that move your demise. You would have proven to us you could not have been trusted. This is real talks. Puting sanctions on a nation, threatening a strike, and manuvering our military around them is like pointing a gun to someones head and asking them to comply. Are they going to trust you? Or do they expect the trigger to pulled even after? The regieme has a extreme phobia of jews, which makes peacefull talks more important. And if it does go south, a dismantled army smaller than we have now will still get things accomplished and in korea if need be.

Russia see's a American monopoly in the region and is the reason why they have stepped up and said they would defend iran. Crazy enought even though were chinas biggest trade partne, they have also said the same thing. Now does a strike against iran sound sane? We are pushing the envelope for this war... May i remind you if it does go nuclear, China and Russia got nukes. The situation can destabalize very quickly with how we are running the show.

I'd rather have my concience clean, knowing i did everything I could for the benefit of people and with moral way's. Than to have gone into fight knowing i have acted wrongly. And this will reflect on the nation after the war, even if it is the victor. A victor who has showed immoral actions before a war, cahnges how the country is run after a major war. Look into some history, the republic of rome, the chinease dynasties, The United Kingdom etc.

When most of a population is not argueing against a move, such as a war. Take a step back, and recollect your thoughts and reasons why such action is being provoked. Iran getting a nuke is the most obvious reason why people want action, they have already been deemed with an action they have not commited(nukeing israel). Another is that iran is not yet under the petro dollar, thus it is not under The United States influence. There are many agenda's that lie behind a door, the Iran crisis is one of those doors, and im not sure I want to open it.

[BadWolf]

This is naive at best.

"Talk" with our enemies? Okay, imagine this - Netanyahu talking with Ahmadinejad and saying, what? "Please, please let as live... don't wipe us off the face of the planet, please, please... We'll give Palestine Jerusalem, how about that?"

Organize all the military in the word? Like how - "Okay, Mr. Putin, we're going to dismantle our offensive capabilities, so make sure Mr. Jong-Il don't get too big for his britches, ok, because, you know, we can't do anything unless he goes and attacks us over here."

You don't ever want to dismantle your military's offensive capabilities. It's an open invitation to every kook out there - and there are many of them - to wreck havoc everywhere. Places like the Philippines cannot wage their own war against these kooks. Without the US OFFENSIVE military, the Philippines would be a Japanese island.

I can personally attest to this one, having grown up in Japan. Also, that even without a military, Japan still tried on numerous occasions.

Also take into mind that ghe US military is

- our nations largest employer

- that during budget cuts we averaged 100,000 US Casualties per YEAR during peacetime (safer to enlist during times of war than peace. No small percentage of which is due to (insert invective here) equipment ... Creating 'training accidents'. Cannibalized choppers, rain gear from the 50s, faulty instrumentation due for gutting 10years ago, etc.).

- responsive for sooooooo much more than tactical operations (educational, medical, humanitarian, disaster & emergency readiness, etc.)

Dismantling the offensive capability of ghe military also cripples us on the domestic front, as well as the international stage.

[Guest]

It is that thinking anatess that has the American people in a noose. We all seem to have been convinced we can be invaded and bombed to oblivion.

And this paragraph is a perfect display of why I believe you are naive. Well, either naive or just can't seem to grasp that American interests is currently maintaining world peace. Not AMERICAN peace. WORLD peace. I don't have any illusions that anybody can go into America and bomb it to oblivion. Not gonna happen.

But guess what, most of my family is in the Philippines. Not America. And if you think that the Philippines is not important, then let me illuminate - the Philippines is a hotbed of islamic terrorists. The Philippine military budget is $2M - that includes salaries and pension of military personnel. And back in 2008, a Phlippine Army major took that money and pocketed it. They're still trying to figure out how to get it back. The Philippine military is outgunned 10 to 1 by the terrorists. BUT, they can't take over the country because we are an American ally. If they try it, America will stand by the government.

What if America doesn't? What if America takes your defensive posture and leaves Philippine interests to the Filipinos? Well then, for sure, the Philippines will be another Iraq and because of its proximity to Indonesia - another hotbed of terrosism - they'll team up and you'll have stepping stones of terrorist shelters spanning across the globe. What's after the Philippines? Guam.... then Hawaii.

You can't afford to play defense in Guam. It will be a lot more expensive to wage a war in your own soil than stopping it before it starts.

I do worry about israel. Ahmendinijhad is one crazy man and so is North Korea. Russia is easy to talk to and there only worried about our interests in the middle east.

What does that mean - I do worry about Israel? Yes, let's worry about Israel but let them deal with their own problems?

And Russia is easy to to talk to? Since when? Every single UN negotiations you have, Russia has been opposed to the US. Russia is the reason you are impotent against Iran. And I have no clue where you got the idea that they're only worried about the middle east.

What could be done instead of sanction Iran to the point of no return is talks, and i will show you how. First let me point out these sanctions are morally wrong. These sanctions do not hurt the goverment but its people. We are trying to bring about revolution by these sanctions. All the while though people will be starving( famine) because of these sanctions. Living conditions will become worse. When its all over and if they do overthrow the regieme is there hate over? Who put them in those horrible conditions? They will direct tha thate to the west with more intrigue than ever before.

If it is still possible, becuase time is running out, we need to talk to Iran. What could be done is to go and talk and say hey, we will lift these sanctions, we will step out of your buisness, we will let you govern yourselves, and we will let you and your people live in peace. You can also seek out your nuclear power for the benefit of your people. But if you as so much as get a nuke, but also show signs of using that nuke we will strike and make that move your demise. You would have proven to us you could not have been trusted. This is real talks. Puting sanctions on a nation, threatening a strike, and manuvering our military around them is like pointing a gun to someones head and asking them to comply. Are they going to trust you? Or do they expect the trigger to pulled even after? The regieme has a extreme phobia of jews, which makes peacefull talks more important. And if it does go south, a dismantled army smaller than we have now will still get things accomplished and in korea if need be.

Russia see's a American monopoly in the region and is the reason why they have stepped up and said they would defend iran. Crazy enought even though were chinas biggest trade partne, they have also said the same thing. Now does a strike against iran sound sane? We are pushing the envelope for this war... May i remind you if it does go nuclear, China and Russia got nukes. The situation can destabalize very quickly with how we are running the show.

I'd rather have my concience clean, knowing i did everything I could for the benefit of people and with moral way's. Than to have gone into fight knowing i have acted wrongly. And this will reflect on the nation after the war, even if it is the victor. A victor who has showed immoral actions before a war, cahnges how the country is run after a major war. Look into some history, the republic of rome, the chinease dynasties, The United Kingdom etc.

When most of a population is not argueing against a move, such as a war. Take a step back, and recollect your thoughts and reasons why such action is being provoked. Iran getting a nuke is the most obvious reason why people want action, they have already been deemed with an action they have not commited(nukeing israel). Another is that iran is not yet under the petro dollar, thus it is not under The United States influence. There are many agenda's that lie behind a door, the Iran crisis is one of those doors, and im not sure I want to open it.

Okay, I'm not even going to respond to this because this is like a lecture by a Beauty Queen during the Pageant Interview spouting off "I want World Peace". Lots of rhetoric that has zero knowlege of Iranian history or the Iranian people or the history of diplomatic and military relations in the region.

Fact #1. America is not the one wanting war. Iran is. You're the one trying to prevent it from happening.

Fact #2. Iran is not just going to stop trying to get that nuke because you are being nice. The government has power over the people. Iran is nationalized where all major industries are controlled by the government. The sanctions are in place to PREVENT them from getting nuclear. Take out sanctions, you got a nuclear Iran because those industries are going to find money that they can use to speed up the nuclear program. That's a given. And the minute they get that nuke, it's either Israel is gone, or Israel strikes first.

"Talking" to Iran without crippling them is not going to do anything much. Ahmadinejad is not just going to change his mind about Israel just because America is being "nice".

And this is basically what you're saying... You are saying, if your lunatic neighbor threatens to blow up your house with all your family in it for no other reason but because he's a racist pig, you're going to "talk to your neighbor" and make him un-racist. You're not going to try to get the police to cripple his ability to gain materials to make that bomb, you're not going to try to put the guy in jail because you think his kids will suffer. You're just going to bring some cookies and milk in there and talk in his dinner table and think when your house blows up with all your family in it, it's okay because you were being moral in thinking of his children. Good luck with that.

P.S. You might want to read up about Chamberlain versus Churchill leading up to WWII. Chamberlain tried to talk to Hitler... and we knew where that ended up.

Edited October 23, 2012 by anatess

[NoxNullaEgetDeumPerfectum]

Iran’s population is around 75 million. For purposes of comparison, that’s higher than the population of Iraq and Afghanistan combined; higher than the population of all of Vietnam when we were involved in that war, or Korea, or even Germany pre-anchluss. If you expect to pacify a population that size, you’re talking about a massive undertaking, comparable to any counter-insurgency in American military history.

And those who think that bombing Iran into submission from the air will be as ‘easy’ as it was in Libya, or Iraq, or Serbia, the situation is again much different. Iran is not a pariah, not by a long shot. Most countries have been backing up the US and EU on the topic of nuclear weapons, but Iran has staunch supporters on nearly every continent the two of which I have already named, and you’ll see them getting a great deal more international support than Saddam ever got, should we enter a war with them. Unless we’re prepared for the erasure of any progress we’ve made in Iraq, Afghanistan, the Gulf, Lebanon, and elsewhere, we shouldent be entertaining the idea of military action against Iran.

Attacking Iran is a terrible idea, and we have to discourage Israel from doing it. But given Iran’s explicit promise of retaliation against US military bases, the US may be forced to pre-empt Iran’s offensive capabilities if an Israeli attack is imminent. (Iran must have thought about this when they promised to attack US bases, which is another indication for me that elements in Iran feel they will gain, not lose, power in the country if they are subjected to a US-Israeli strike).

Numerous security and terrorism experts have said that one of the consequences of attacking Iran is that it will increase the rate of terrorist attacks against the United States. With that said, why does America insist on attacking Iran and defending Israel at any cost? Do American leaders want the terrorism threat to grow and spread, contrary to what they say in public?

The short answer is yes.

Terrorism keeps security goons, fearmongering politicians, war contractors, national security bureaucrats, and financial institutions in business. American politicians, military leaders, and national security officials justify their powers, salaries, and privileges by claiming their highest priority is the security of the American people, but this is plainly false. They're doing everything they can to create an unstable world in which the threat of terrorism to America and global security is greater than it is now.

The U.S. National Security Dictatorship sees it as a good thing that the terrorism threat will evolve and get larger after a U.S.-Israeli attack on Iran. They want to keep creating enemies, killing people, and making terrorists out of disenfranchised and resentful youth. The profiteers of the war system want to preserve the war system and fight the illegal war on terror until their population, military, political, and economic objectives have been achieved.

In the last eleven years, American and Western leaders have constructed a global "counter-terrorism" state to handle what they know for certain is coming: global economic collapse, world war, and a dramatic rise in global terrorism. A U.S.-Israeli attack on Iran would trigger all three.

This is nothing like Hitler's rise to power. This time in history is nothing close to Chamberlin versus Churchill. This is a new kind of war, a covert war, economic war, and a gigantic political war with many rewards to be won. Despite the lives that will be lost and ruined. Again if the Military is dismantled even a little bit, the pacific can be still protected. It is called strategic replacment of resources. I think we need to rethink where our resources are going. I don't think we need many of the military instalations around the world that we have, we can keep a few, to keep this said world peace, even though the military industrial complex works against this interest. More like the past 15 years have been hijacked by mad men who only care in wealth and the power they obtain. These sanction's wont stop what is going to come, but hell let's make those people's live's worse while were at it.

[volgadon]

And this paragraph is a perfect display of why I believe you are naive. Well, either naive or just can't seem to grasp that American interests is currently maintaining world peace. Not AMERICAN peace. WORLD peace. I don't have any illusions that anybody can go into America and bomb it to oblivion. Not gonna happen.

I used to believe that. I was roundly abused of any such naive and idealistic notions when the USA was quick to mountain a campaign in Libya, but has so far consistently declined to intervene in Syria. The USA is not for world peace, the USA is out for its own particular interests, much as any nation.

[Guest]

I used to believe that. I was roundly abused of any such naive and idealistic notions when the USA was quick to mountain a campaign in Libya, but has so far consistently declined to intervene in Syria. The USA is not for world peace, the USA is out for its own particular interests, much as any nation.

Volgadon, you are a lot more mid-east "aware" than Noxnulla, so I feel confident you will see how the Arab Spring did not extend to Syria after I present to you some things of my understanding.

1.) First of all, the POTUS mounted a campaign in Libya without the approval of Congress. Congress was hesitant to oust Qaddafi after seeing how Egypt's uprising led to the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood. They wanted to make sure Qaddafi is not going to be replaced by a group hostile to the US. After Qaddafi got killed, Libya opened their prisons and released people the US has captured in the war against terror and Qaddafi extradited. Also, anti-US groups continue to overrun the Libyan regime and if you follow the rabbit down the rabbit hole it will lead you to the recent events in Benghazi.

2.). Onto Syria. There are several factors different between Libya and Syria. First of all, Syria did not want external forces involved in their uprising. Libya wanted the UN to intervene at the get-go. France executed the air strike that saved civilians from a massacre in Benghazi after the UN Security Council procured the agreement of the council including Russia and China (the two who are usually against things of this nature).

Now, you realize that Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Bahrain toppled their regimes on a surprise attack. Libya and Syria govt were a lot later in the Arab Spring so that their govts were prepared to suppress rebellion. When the Syrian rebels failed to topple Al-Assad, they started to change their minds on the UN intervention.

Unfortunately, the Security Council are divided on the ousting of Al-Assad. And this is why. Syria is a country of many religions. Al-Assad is not just fighting to keep his regime, he is also fighting for the lives of the Alawites - a minority religious sect that he belongs to. There is a very good chance that if Al-Assad topples and the UN loses influence with the Sunnis, Alawites will experience genocide.

There are other factors, of course, one being Israel feels safer with Al-Assad who, despite posturing anti-Israel sentiments, never really does anything about it, than a possible theocratic anti-Semitic government who will do something about it.. But, all in all, you can see how Syria is very different from Libya.

In any case, World Peace is protecting American interests. They are one and the same due to the nature of American enterprise. Yes, America can make money from selling weapons to warring countries but the repercussions of war is higher on American industry. Now, if America ever achieves energy independence, the playing field will change and it will be interesting to note how they will promote American enterprise in the mid-east.

Edited October 24, 2012 by anatess

[NeuroTypical]

"World peace" is an interesting word, that means different things to different people. To me, the 'world peace' kept by the US, involves balancing regional powers against each other so nobody rises to the level of serious challenger to the US, while at the same time not letting things get so unbalanced that it turns into a serious bloodbath.

I used to consider the US a hegemon, but these days I've pretty much concluded we're a full-fledged empire. And when I look at Traveler's opening post through that lens, it makes me sad. Because one thing all empires do, is eventually fall. I can keep my fingers crossed that our fall will be more like the fall of the British empire, and less like the fall of Rome.

[Traveler]

"World peace" is an interesting word, that means different things to different people. To me, the 'world peace' kept by the US, involves balancing regional powers against each other so nobody rises to the level of serious challenger to the US, while at the same time not letting things get so unbalanced that it turns into a serious bloodbath.

I used to consider the US a hegemon, but these days I've pretty much concluded we're a full-fledged empire. And when I look at Traveler's opening post through that lens, it makes me sad. Because one thing all empires do, is eventually fall. I can keep my fingers crossed that our fall will be more like the fall of the British empire, and less like the fall of Rome.

Winston Churchill once said that there are things worse than war and they all come from loosing a war. When the British Empire fell - it fell in essence one brick at a time and for the most part was replaced by something comparable. When the Roman Empire fail the entire empire collapsed there was nothing comparable to replace it and thus thrust western civilization into the Dark Ages. There is nothing comparable to replace the US Empire and would likely end democracies and give rise to dictatorships.

When we lose this economic battle we will lose the war and we will realize that there are things much worse than all the corruption brought about by the freedoms and the flawed experiment of the USA's constitutional government and economic attempt at capitalism.

The Traveler

[NoxNullaEgetDeumPerfectum]

I do not know hot to provide link's so please forgive me. But here is a talk from an not to old beloved prophet. I think this talk still speak's voulme's to the issue's today.

The Times in Which We Live Gordon B. Hinckley

President of the Church

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Our safety lies in repentance. Our strength comes of obedience to the commandments of God.PD10029371_000_029

My beloved brethren and sisters, I accept this opportunity in humility. I pray that I may be guided by the Spirit of the Lord in that which I say.

I have just been handed a note that says that a U.S. missile attack is under way. I need not remind you that we live in perilous times. I desire to speak concerning these times and our circumstances as members of this Church.

You are acutely aware of the events of September 11, less than a month ago. Out of that vicious and ugly attack we are plunged into a state of war. It is the first war of the 21st century. The last century has been described as the most war-torn in human history. Now we are off on another dangerous undertaking, the unfolding of which and the end thereof we do not know. For the first time since we became a nation, the United States has been seriously attacked on its mainland soil. But this was not an attack on the United States alone. It was an attack on men and nations of goodwill everywhere. It was well planned, boldly executed, and the results were disastrous. It is estimated that more than 5,000 innocent people died. Among these were many from other nations. It was cruel and cunning, an act of consummate evil.

Recently, in company with a few national religious leaders, I was invited to the White House to meet with the president. In talking to us he was frank and straightforward.

That same evening he spoke to the Congress and the nation in unmistakable language concerning the resolve of America and its friends to hunt down the terrorists who were responsible for the planning of this terrible thing and any who harbored such.

Now we are at war. Great forces have been mobilized and will continue to be. Political alliances are being forged. We do not know how long this conflict will last. We do not know what it will cost in lives and treasure. We do not know the manner in which it will be carried out. It could impact the work of the Church in various ways.

Our national economy has been made to suffer. It was already in trouble, and this has compounded the problem. Many are losing their employment. Among our own people, this could affect welfare needs and also the tithing of the Church. It could affect our missionary program.

We are now a global organization. We have members in more than 150 nations. Administering this vast worldwide program could conceivably become more difficult.

Those of us who are American citizens stand solidly with the president of our nation. The terrible forces of evil must be confronted and held accountable for their actions. This is not a matter of Christian against Muslim. I am pleased that food is being dropped to the hungry people of a targeted nation. We value our Muslim neighbors across the world and hope that those who live by the tenets of their faith will not suffer. I ask particularly that our own people do not become a party in any way to the persecution of the innocent. Rather, let us be friendly and helpful, protective and supportive. It is the terrorist organizations that must be ferreted out and brought down.

We of this Church know something of such groups. The Book of Mormon speaks of the Gadianton robbers, a vicious, oath-bound, and secret organization bent on evil and destruction. In their day they did all in their power, by whatever means available, to bring down the Church, to woo the people with sophistry, and to take control of the society. We see the same thing in the present situation.

We are people of peace. We are followers of the Christ who was and is the Prince of Peace. But there are times when we must stand up for right and decency, for freedom and civilization, just as Moroni rallied his people in his day to the defense of their wives, their children, and the cause of liberty (see Alma 48:10).

On the Larry King television broadcast the other night, I was asked what I think of those who, in the name of their religion, carry out such infamous activities. I replied, “Religion offers no shield for wickedness, for evil, for those kinds of things. The God in whom I believe does not foster this kind of action. He is a God of mercy. He is a God of love. He is a God of peace and reassurance, and I look to Him in times such as this as a comfort and a source of strength.”

Members of the Church in this and other nations are now involved with many others in a great international undertaking. On television we see those of the military leaving their loved ones, knowing not whether they will return. It is affecting the homes of our people. Unitedly, as a Church, we must get on our knees and invoke the powers of the Almighty in behalf of those who will carry the burdens of this campaign.

No one knows how long it will last. No one knows precisely where it will be fought. No one knows what it may entail before it is over. We have launched an undertaking the size and nature of which we cannot see at this time.

Occasions of this kind pull us up sharply to a realization that life is fragile, peace is fragile, civilization itself is fragile. The economy is particularly vulnerable. We have been counseled again and again concerning self-reliance, concerning debt, concerning thrift. So many of our people are heavily in debt for things that are not entirely necessary. When I was a young man, my father counseled me to build a modest home, sufficient for the needs of my family, and make it beautiful and attractive and pleasant and secure. He counseled me to pay off the mortgage as quickly as I could so that, come what may, there would be a roof over the heads of my wife and children. I was reared on that kind of doctrine. I urge you as members of this Church to get free of debt where possible and to have a little laid aside against a rainy day.

We cannot provide against every contingency. But we can provide against many contingencies. Let the present situation remind us that this we should do.

As we have been continuously counseled for more than 60 years, let us have some food set aside that would sustain us for a time in case of need. But let us not panic nor go to extremes. Let us be prudent in every respect. And, above all, my brothers and sisters, let us move forward with faith in the Living God and His Beloved Son.

Great are the promises concerning this land of America. We are told unequivocally that it “is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ” (Ether 2:12). This is the crux of the entire matter—obedience to the commandments of God.

The Constitution under which we live, and which has not only blessed us but has become a model for other constitutions, is our God-inspired national safeguard ensuring freedom and liberty, justice and equality before the law.

I do not know what the future holds. I do not wish to sound negative, but I wish to remind you of the warnings of scripture and the teachings of the prophets which we have had constantly before us.

I cannot forget the great lesson of Pharaoh’s dream of the fat and lean kine and of the full and withered stalks of corn.

I cannot dismiss from my mind the grim warnings of the Lord as set forth in the 24th chapter of Matthew.

I am familiar, as are you, with the declarations of modern revelation that the time will come when the earth will be cleansed and there will be indescribable distress, with weeping and mourning and lamentation (see D&C 112:24).

Now, I do not wish to be an alarmist. I do not wish to be a prophet of doom. I am optimistic. I do not believe the time is here when an all-consuming calamity will overtake us. I earnestly pray that it may not. There is so much of the Lord’s work yet to be done. We, and our children after us, must do it.

I can assure you that we who are responsible for the management of the affairs of the Church will be prudent and careful as we have tried to be in the past. The tithes of the Church are sacred. They are appropriated in the manner set forth by the Lord Himself. We have become a very large and complex organization. We carry on many extensive and costly programs. But I can assure you that we will not exceed our income. We will not place the Church in debt. We will tailor what we do to the resources that are available.

How grateful I am for the law of tithing. It is the Lord’s law of finance. It is set forth in a few words in the 119th section of the Doctrine and Covenants. It comes of His wisdom. To every man and woman, to every boy and girl, to every child in this Church who pays an honest tithing, be it large or small, I express gratitude for the faith that is in your hearts. I remind you, and those who do not pay tithing but who should, that the Lord has promised marvelous blessings (see Mal. 3:10–12). He has also promised that “he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming” (D&C 64:23).

I express appreciation to those who pay a fast offering. This costs the giver nothing other than going without two meals a month. It becomes the backbone of our welfare program, designed to assist those in distress.

Now, all of us know that war, contention, hatred, suffering of the worst kind are not new. The conflict we see today is but another expression of the conflict that began with the War in Heaven. I quote from the book of Revelation:

“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

“And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

“And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ” (Rev. 12:7–10).

That must have been a terrible conflict. The forces of evil were pitted against the forces of good. The great deceiver, the son of the morning, was defeated and banished, and took with him a third of the hosts of heaven.

The book of Moses and the book of Abraham shed further light concerning this great contest. Satan would have taken from man his agency and taken unto himself all credit and honor and glory. Opposed to this was the plan of the Father which the Son said He would fulfill, under which He came to earth and gave His life to atone for the sins of mankind.

From the day of Cain to the present, the adversary has been the great mastermind of the terrible conflicts that have brought so much suffering.

Treachery and terrorism began with him. And they will continue until the Son of God returns to rule and reign with peace and righteousness among the sons and daughters of God.

Through centuries of time, men and women, so very, very many, have lived and died. Some may die in the conflict that lies ahead. To us, and we bear solemn testimony of this, death will not be the end. There is life beyond this as surely as there is life here. Through the great plan which became the very essence of the War in Heaven, men shall go on living.

Job asked, “If a man die, shall he live again?” (Job 14:14). He replied: “For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

“And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

“Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another” (Job 19:25–27).

Now, brothers and sisters, we must do our duty, whatever that duty might be. Peace may be denied for a season. Some of our liberties may be curtailed. We may be inconvenienced. We may even be called on to suffer in one way or another. But God our Eternal Father will watch over this nation and all of the civilized world who look to Him. He has declared, “Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord” (Ps. 33:12). Our safety lies in repentance. Our strength comes of obedience to the commandments of God.

Let us be prayerful. Let us pray for righteousness. Let us pray for the forces of good. Let us reach out to help men and women of goodwill, whatever their religious persuasion and wherever they live. Let us stand firm against evil, both at home and abroad. Let us live worthy of the blessings of heaven, reforming our lives where necessary and looking to Him, the Father of us all. He has said, “Be still, and know that I am God” (Ps. 46:10).

Are these perilous times? They are. But there is no need to fear. We can have peace in our hearts and peace in our homes. We can be an influence for good in this world, every one of us.

May the God of heaven, the Almighty, bless us, help us, as we walk our various ways in the uncertain days that lie ahead. May we look to Him with unfailing faith. May we worthily place our reliance on His Beloved Son who is our great Redeemer, whether it be in life or in death, is my prayer in His holy name, even the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

[NoxNullaEgetDeumPerfectum]

I would also like to post this excerpt by Spencer W. Kimball.

We are a Warlike People

An excerpt from a discourse by President Spencer W. Kimball.

The Lord gave us a choice world and expects righteousness and obedience to his commandments in return. But when I review the performance of this people in comparison with what is expected, I am appalled and frightened. Iniquity seems to abound. The Destroyer seems to be taking full advantage of the time remaining to him in this, the great day of his power. Evil seems about to engulf us like a great wave, and we feel that truly we are living in conditions similar to those in the days of Noah before the Flood…

In spite of our delight in defining ourselves as modern, and our tendency to think we possess a sophistication that no people in the past ever had — in spite of these things, we are, on the whole, an idolatrous people — a condition repugnant to the Lord.

We are a warlike people, easily distracted from our assignment of preparing for the coming of the Lord. When enemies rise up, we commit vast resources to the fabrication of gods of stone and steel — ships, planes, missiles, fortifications — and depend on them for protection and deliverance. When threatened, we become antienemy instead of pro-kingdom of God; we train a man in the art of war and call him a patriot, thus, in the manner of Satan’s counterfeit of true patriotism, perverting the Savior’s teaching:

“Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

“That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 5:44-45).

We forget that if we are righteous the Lord will either not suffer our enemies to come upon us — and this is the special promise to the inhabitants of the land of the Americas (see 2 Nephi 1:7) — or he will fight our battles for us (Exodus 14:14; D&C 98:37, to name only two references of many). This he is able to do, for as he said at the time of his betrayal, “Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?” (Matthew 26:53). We can imagine what fearsome soldiers they would be. King Jehoshaphat and his people were delivered by such a troop (see 2 Chronicles 20), and when Elish’s life was threatened, he comforted his servant by saying, “Fear not; for they that be with us are more than they that be with them” (2 Kings 6:16). The Lord then opened the eyes of the servant, “And he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha” (vs 17).

What are we to fear when the Lord is with us? Can we not take the Lord at his word and exercise a particle of faith in him? Our assignment is affirmative: to forsake the things of the world as ends in themselves; to leave off idolatry and press forward in faith; to carry the gospel to our enemies, that they might no longer be our enemies.