horax

The fate of Judas Iscariot

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20 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

@Anddenex You may note though, he does not try to justify Judas, only to state an opinion (to my mind).  It is not even a statement of thus saith the Lord in this instance, and he does not claim that Judas was acting in any way other than Judas did.  In essence, he is merely indicating that the final judgment is the Lord's and not ours. 

We also have Talmage in his ideas written in "Jesus the Christ", which also state something similar in that it is the LORD who is the final judge, but leans more strongly in regards to what Judas's final fate was proclaimed as...

https://www.lds.org/manual/jesus-the-christ/chapter-34?lang=eng

I may also point out that if Judas did, indeed commit suicide, that also further causes the idea that he was lost.  If one idea of a Son of Perdition is one that cannot accept forgiveness, even when forgiveness is offered, or who will refuse it because of who they are aligned with and who they fight against, then Judas also falls into this camp.  Instead of turning and trying to repent, he instead fell into hoplessness and destroyed his mortal opportunity for repentance in this life...if we believe that he also killed himself by hanging.

True, I don't think it wise for any of us to "justify" what Judas did; although, I don't have any problem with seeking to understand why he did what he did. My personal belief with Judas is that his motives surrounded two things:

1) Greed -- the desire for the root of all evil - money (and pride)

2) To force Christ's hand to show the Jews he was their prophesied Messiah.

Judas fell short on both accounts. With all that is said about Judas, my personal thoughts, I lean toward the understanding given by President Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie rather than James E. Talmage. Truth is truth though, and if Judas did qualify to be a son of perdition, and this judgement is final by God the Father in light of the Son as the mediator, well, you won't find one argument from me. :)

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12 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

This is the part I cant fathom- how can someone believe an apostle to walk day to day in Christs presence for a very long time, knowing the love they have for them, and then deny it and altogether turn from that be forgiven? We arent speaking of just being a special witness like our modern prophets but rather more- to be in his continual presence and in company of angels and then deny it. Judas is lost, forever lost. Its a lesson to us to not deny Christ and altogether turn from  it once his love has made itself manifest in our hearts. The ramifications are dire.

When we make assumptions, it is understandable why we can't fathom certain things. Some people can't fathom a God that called back all firstborn in Egypt, so they make up some reason. Some people can't fathom the life of Job, so they make up a reason.

These are the requirements to be identified/judged as a son of perdition:

1) Having denied the Holy Spirit

2) Having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father

3) Having crucified the Only Begotten Son of the Father

4) Having put the Only Begotten Son of the Father to open shame

5) Who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

6) They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

7) *I have heard it proclaimed that a person must have their calling and election made sure in order for them to become a son of perdition. I have heard some variations to this and some that discount this.

What I see from your thoughts is that you are attributing a lot of "unknowns" to Judas. What you are providing are assumptions with regards to what Judas learned, obtained, and received while he walked with Jesus.

"Judas is lost, forever lost." This statement is well outside of your realm to make an eternal judgement. The final judgement is yet to come, and we should be very cautious to make any such claim, that has not been made specifically clear. If this was clear pertaining to Judas, we wouldn't have modern apostles letting us know that we do not know what Judas's fate is in the eternal realms, except what has been said in scripture, and we can see a person who became the Lord's prophet - his servant - carried a different thought pertaining to Judas then you provide.

In my minds eyes, President Joseph Fielding Smith's comment carries more weight, and is more likely accurate.

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2 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

When we make assumptions, it is understandable why we can't fathom certain things. Some people can't fathom a God that called back all firstborn in Egypt, so they make up some reason. Some people can't fathom the life of Job, so they make up a reason.

These are the requirements to be identified/judged as a son of perdition:

1) Having denied the Holy Spirit

2) Having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father

3) Having crucified the Only Begotten Son of the Father

4) Having put the Only Begotten Son of the Father to open shame

5) Who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

6) They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

7) *I have heard it proclaimed that a person must have their calling and election made sure in order for them to become a son of perdition. I have heard some variations to this and some that discount this.

What I see from your thoughts is that you are attributing a lot of "unknowns" to Judas. What you are providing are assumptions with regards to what Judas learned, obtained, and received while he walked with Jesus.

"Judas is lost, forever lost." This statement is well outside of your realm to make an eternal judgement. The final judgement is yet to come, and we should be very cautious to make any such claim, that has not been made specifically clear. If this was clear pertaining to Judas, we wouldn't have modern apostles letting us know that we do not know what Judas's fate is in the eternal realms, except what has been said in scripture, and we can see a person who became the Lord's prophet - his servant - carried a different thought pertaining to Judas then you provide.

In my minds eyes, President Joseph Fielding Smith's comment carries more weight, and is more likely accurate.

The scriptures carry the weight, not an opinion, be it me or a prophet, it's the same. The scriptures testify of two things- 1. The requirements to become a son of perdition. 2. That Judas is a son of perdition.

Thus we can safely judge that Judas very much indeed meet the requirements to become what he in fact is.

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2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

IT SHOCKS me at the number who are willing to tear down the John and try to disbelieve what he wrote.  Or to wrest with the scriptures to try to state something they do not.

I'm not aware of anyone arguing that Judas wasn't a traitor or a Son of Perdition as a result, at least, as of the time you posted this.  Unless I'm missing something, the debate was about Judas' motives.  

Edited by unixknight

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17 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The scriptures carry the weight, not an opinion, be it me or a prophet, it's the same. The scriptures testify of two things- 1. The requirements to become a son of perdition. 2. That Judas is a son of perdition.

Thus we can safely judge that Judas very much indeed meet the requirements to become what he in fact is.

We agree scriptures carry weight, but as with "heaven and hell" it isn't the scriptures that are in debate. It is the interpretation you are providing. At least this time you have more than one witness from James E. Talmage as given by JohnsonJones, but nonetheless still your opinion with an eternal judgement which is well above your authority to make.

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3 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

We agree scriptures carry weight, but as with "heaven and hell" it isn't the scriptures that are in debate. It is the interpretation you are providing. At least this time you have more than one witness from James E. Talmage as given by JohnsonJones, but nonetheless still your opinion with an eternal judgement which is well above your authority to make.

I'm not the one eternally judging. God already did that, I'm just acknowledging that judgment. And what is the judgment? That Judas is a son of perdition. Whom am I to say this isn't so? Many in here seem to not acknowledge God's judgment here he has already made.

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15 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I'm not the one eternally judging. God already did that, I'm just acknowledging that judgment. And what is the judgment? That Judas is a son of perdition. Whom am I to say this isn't so? Many in here seem to not acknowledge God's judgment here he has already made.

I'm not the one eternally judging.

This is your statement, "Judas is lost, forever lost." This is an eternal judgement, so yes, indeed you are making an eternal judgement on your brother.

God already did that

We don't know what God already did, and how God has judged Judas. We know words and phrases that were used, and we have modern apostles providing interpretation regarding these thoughts. We also have modern apostles, as shared, that would agree with you.

Many here are actually saying, we don't know, and the information provided -- in light of Church manuals and quotes -- that what you are attributing may not be the case. So, once again, you do not know what God's judgement is.

What others are saying on here is that they don't know and we will leave it up to God the Father when that time comes. They aren't acknowledging what apparently is not clear, with the simple fact there isn't "unity" with the phrase used toward Judas. If there were unity with the brethren, then you have a stronger and more valid point. Otherwise, we shouldn't extend ourselves with an eternal judgement that even apostles and prophets have not made, nor agree upon.

Quote

 

Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said:

“We know the divine plan required Jesus to be crucified, but it is wrenching to think that one of His special witnesses who sat at His feet, heard Him pray, watched Him heal, and felt His touch could betray Him and all that He was for 30 pieces of silver. Never in the history of this world has so little money purchased so much infamy. We are not the ones to judge Judas’s fate, but Jesus said of His betrayer, ‘Good [were it] for that man if he had not been born.’ [Matthew 26:24]” (“None Were with Him,” Ensign or Liahona, May 2009, 86). (emphasis mine) (Source)

 

 

Edited by Anddenex

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2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

IT SHOCKS me at the number who are willing to tear down the John and try to disbelieve what he wrote.  Or to wrest with the scriptures to try to state something they do not.

I'm not disbelieving the things that John wrote.  But we can't guarantee that John wrote everything we think he did.  

All I'm saying is there are other plausible interpretations and explanations. And that we can learn valuable lessons from all of them.

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11 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

I'm not even convinced that Judas is unsalvageable. The man was a zealot. He believed that Jesus was the Messiah, in the sense of rescuing the Jews from Roman rule. It's entirely plausible that he acted from a position of misguided faith and was convinced that turning Jesus over would spark the revolution. In other words, he was trying to help move things along without fully comprehending Christ's plan and purpose. If we are to believe the scriptures, he wasn't unique in that regard among the disciples.

As for John's statement, the Gospel of John was written decades later by someone purporting to be the Apostle John,  but the authorship isn't decisively affirmed. Furthermore, we never hear Judas's side of the story, and the statements against his spiritual welfare may originate in the bitterness the disciples felt toward Judas, not necessarily from the feelings of Christ.

I'm not so strong in my opinions as to say Judas Iscariot is doomed or redeemable. I think we'd be wise to leave that to Christ and, instead, open our minds and hearts to the lessons we can learn from either interpretation. 

This would correspond with the scripture that counsels against judging a person before you hear them speak on their own behalf. 

 

The Traveler

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56 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I'm not the one eternally judging.

This is your statement, "Judas is lost, forever lost." This is an eternal judgement, so yes, indeed you are making an eternal judgement on your brother.

God already did that

We don't know what God already did, and how God has judged Judas. We know words and phrases that were used, and we have modern apostles providing interpretation regarding these thoughts. We also have modern apostles, as shared, that would agree with you.

Many here are actually saying, we don't know, and the information provided -- in light of Church manuals and quotes -- that what you are attributing may not be the case. So, once again, you do not know what God's judgement is.

What others are saying on here is that they don't know and we will leave it up to God the Father when that time comes. They aren't acknowledging what apparently is not clear, with the simple fact there isn't "unity" with the phrase used toward Judas. If there were unity with the brethren, then you have a stronger and more valid point. Otherwise, we shouldn't extend ourselves with an eternal judgement that even apostles and prophets have not made, nor agree upon.

 

It's not judging when we make a statement of what the scriptures have already stated. According to scripture the judgment by God is that he is a son of perdition. Now, perhaps one can believe the scriptures are in error, that's fine, but restating what the Lord has already said is not judging, it's "acknowledgement".

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31 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

I'm not disbelieving the things that John wrote.  But we can't guarantee that John wrote everything we think he did.  

All I'm saying is there are other plausible interpretations and explanations. And that we can learn valuable lessons from all of them.

We know from the Joseph Smith translation that the Biblical record of John's gospel has errors - some of which are so bad that it could completely misdirect the reader into believing the exact opposite of what John intended in his original (autograph) manuscript.  

I will state again for the record - I hope and pray that Judas does repent and is forgiven - beyond the hope that all will repent and come unto Christ - I can only do what I can do.  And as of yet I have no way to deal with Judas and yet I trust that G-d is merciful even more than just - especially for those that realize they are in error.  It does appear to me that Judas realized his mistake in seeking to return the silver and then to hang himself.  And as far as forgiveness - I think those that realize their errors are closer to divine forgiveness than those so proud that they cannot realize their mistakes - just the errors of others.

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

It's not judging when we make a statement of what the scriptures have already stated. According to scripture the judgment by God is that he is a son of perdition. Now, perhaps one can believe the scriptures are in error, that's fine, but restating what the Lord has already said is not judging, it's "acknowledgement".

Then acknowledge what has been said, don't make a final judgement. This isn't an acknowledgement of what scriptures have specified, "Judas is lost, forever lost." This is a statement of eternal judgement.

In contrast, let's review Elder Holland's quote, which is an acknowledgement and an acceptance of not making eternal judgements, "Never in the history of this world has so little money purchased so much infamy. We are not the ones to judge Judas’s fate, but Jesus said of His betrayer, ‘Good [were it] for that man if he had not been born.’ [Matthew 26:24]” (“None Were with Him,” Ensign or Liahona, May 2009, 86). (emphasis mine) (Source)

It should be easy to differentiate your statement - an eternal judgement - from Elder Holland's -- an acknowledgement of what scriptures specify - not an eternal judgement.

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16 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Then acknowledge what has been said, don't make a final judgement. This isn't an acknowledgement of what scriptures have specified, "Judas is lost, forever lost." This is a statement of eternal judgement.

In contrast, let's review Elder Holland's quote, which is an acknowledgement and an acceptance of not making eternal judgements, "Never in the history of this world has so little money purchased so much infamy. We are not the ones to judge Judas’s fate, but Jesus said of His betrayer, ‘Good [were it] for that man if he had not been born.’ [Matthew 26:24]” (“None Were with Him,” Ensign or Liahona, May 2009, 86). (emphasis mine) (Source)

It should be easy to differentiate your statement - an eternal judgement - from Elder Holland's -- an acknowledgement of what scriptures specify - not an eternal judgement.

Son's of perdition are lost forever. Unless I am mistaken?

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Didn’t JFS say pretty clearly that Judas was the original son of perdition?

I mean, I get not judging; and I get that sometime prophets blur the line between opinion and doctrine; and I get charity; and I get that maybe there’s hope for Judas.  But, labeling him a son of perdition is not exactly a wingbat opinion within the Church; and the notion that perdition is eternal doesn’t strike me as a particularly novel doctrine either.  What am I missing?

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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On 10/1/2012 at 4:44 PM, horax said:

We all know teh story of Judas and how he sold Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.

I have always wondered exactly what his fate woudl be. We see that in Matthew, Judas felt badly when he saw how Jesus was being treated and returned the money. However, when Jesus was not released and the money was not accepted, he killed himself.

Would he be more guilty of killing himself and not enduring to the end (and not being able to repent of his action of killing himself in this life) or of fulfilling a prophecy set forth by Jeremiah that one of Jesus' apostles would betray him?

Also, one of my seminary students asked me this morning if Judas would be cast into outer darkness as a son of perdition since he walked with Christ and yet denied him.

I said I'd do reserach, but I don't think he ever actually DENIED Christ or his teachings. He was presented an opportunity by Satan and he took it (which was wrong). I'm pretty sure all the apostles were tempted at differetn times, but Judas let the thought linger in his mind and eventually it took root in his heart and it ruined him.

I have been looking through Jesus the Christ by Talmage as a reference, and I am going to go thorugh it again tonight, but if memory servefs he mentions how Judas is in perhaps the worst state ever due to his betrayal of the Lord. He mentions how you cannot walk a gray line in serving Christ. Either you follow him or you do not...you support God or you support Satan.

According to his ideas, Judas might be in big trouble as he walked and talked with Deity and yet chose to serve the Evil One. At that moment, it's highly possible that he damned himself from further progression and would ultimately be cast into outer darkness.

Remember, outer darkness is the only place where Eternal Progression is halted. You can progress in the Telestial, Celestial, and Terrestrial kingdoms, but you cannot progress OUT of them.

What are your thoughts on this?

In Christ’s great intercessory prayer, immediately prior to his atoning sacrifice and death, the Savior promised his disciples that after he was risen from the dead they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and thereafter enjoy much greater manifestations of spiritual power than they had heretofore experienced. The New Testament record also makes it quite plain to see that prior to the Savior’s resurrection the Apostles didn’t have a clear understanding of the reasons why the Savior had to leave them, suffer and die. It’s also now well understood that the only individuals who are capable of becoming sons of perdition are those who have been fully enlightened by the Holy Ghost, yet we know that the Saviour himself testified that his apostles would not be fully enlightened by the Spirit until the day of Pentecost. It is for these reasons that Joseph F Smith, the author of Doctrine and Covenants 138, said the following:

“If Judas really had known God's power, and had partaken thereof, and did actually "deny the truth" and "defy" that power, "having denied the Holy Spirit after he had received it," and also "denied the Only Begotten," after God had "revealed him" unto him, then there can be no doubt that he "will die the second death. That Judas did partake of all this knowledge—that these great truths had been revealed to him—that he had received the Holy Spirit by the gift of God, and was therefore qualified to commit the unpardonable sin, is not at all clear to me. To my mind it strongly appears that not one of the disciples possessed sufficient light, knowledge nor wisdom, at the time of the crucifixion, for either exaltation or condemnation; for it was afterward that their minds were opened to understand the scriptures, and that they were endowed with power from on high; without which they were only children in knowledge, in comparison to what they afterwards become under the influence of the Spirit.....

But not knowing that Judas did commit the unpardonable sin; nor that he was a "son of perdition without hope" who will die the second death, nor what knowledge he possessed by which he was able to commit so great a sin, I prefer, until I know better, to take the merciful view that he may be numbered among those for whom the blessed Master prayed, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."(Joseph F. Smith Gospel Doctrine p 433-435)

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I think there is a big misconception over what it takes to become a son of perdition. It is helpful to know that the church actually views it differently than most believe-

Sons of Perdition
        
        
            
                
                    
                        See also Damnation; Death, Spiritual; Devil; Hell; Unpardonable Sin
                    
                
            
            The followers of Satan who will suffer with him in eternity. Sons of perdition include (1) those who followed Satan and were cast out of heaven for rebellion during premortality and (2) those who were permitted to be born to this world with physical bodies but then served Satan and turned utterly against God. Those in this second group will be resurrected from the dead but will not be redeemed from the second (spiritual) death and cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory (D&C 88:32, 35) (Guide to the Scriptures)

 

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40 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I think there is a big misconception over what it takes to become a son of perdition. It is helpful to know that the church actually views it differently than most believe-

Sons of Perdition
        
        
            
                
                    
                        See also Damnation; Death, Spiritual; Devil; Hell; Unpardonable Sin
                    
                
            
            The followers of Satan who will suffer with him in eternity. Sons of perdition include (1) those who followed Satan and were cast out of heaven for rebellion during premortality and (2) those who were permitted to be born to this world with physical bodies but then served Satan and turned utterly against God. Those in this second group will be resurrected from the dead but will not be redeemed from the second (spiritual) death and cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory (D&C 88:32, 35) (Guide to the Scriptures)

 

There’s a great deal more available on this subject, in the scriptures and the writings of the leaders of the Church, that explains things in detail well beyond the sparse onformation in the little snippet you quoted above. Here is a particularly enlightening quote on the subject from Apostle John A Widstoe in which he also speaks of the fate of Judas.

Who Are The Sons Of Perdition? The name Perdition was given to Lucifer, a son of the morning. He refused to accept the plan proposed by God the Father, for the salvation of His spirit children. For this defiant rebellion he was “thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,” and became Satan or the devil who “maketh war with the saints of God.” Those who do likewise, who follow Satan are called sons of perdition. (Pearl of Great Price, Moses 4:1-4). “They are they who have known my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power.” (D. & C. 76:31)

However, Lucifer was “an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God.” He had risen high in knowledge, understanding, and power. He was Lucifer, a son of the morning (of light). For his rebellion there was no excuse. He committed the unpardonable sin, in denying that of which he had full and complete knowledge. He became thereby the father of lies (See D. & C. 76:26, 32-48).

It is probable that only personages who have acquired similar full knowledge, who willfully and deliberately deny the truth, when they know it to be the truth, can commit the unpardonable sin and become sons of perdition. They are sons of perdition because, “Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to open shame” (D. & C. 76:35). They must have had a fullness of knowledge; a testimony which cannot be destroyedOne must be on a high eminence to fall so low; and few in world’s history have attained such a height.It is doubtful if even Judas, who betrayed Jesus, was sufficiently enlightened to become a son of perdition (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p. 545). Cain was called Perdition because of his sin, but it is added “for thou wast also before the world,” implying a reason from out of the pre-existent world, for this heavy punishment (Pearl of Great Price, Moses 5:24).

Moreover, the expression, sons of perdition, is often used in the scriptures to describe disciples of Satan, all who defy God and teach untruth, and who delight in lies, without necessarily committing the unpardonable sin. The many brethren and sisters who have propounded questions about the sons of perdition may rest secure that with their present knowledge they cannot become sons of perdition. (Evidences and Reconciliations, pp.212)

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

There’s a great deal more available on this subject, in the scriptures and the writings of the leaders of the Church, that explains things in detail well beyond the sparse onformation in the little snippet you quoted above. Here is a particularly enlightening quote on the subject from Apostle John A Widstoe in which he also speaks of the fate of Judas.

Who Are The Sons Of Perdition? The name Perdition was given to Lucifer, a son of the morning. He refused to accept the plan proposed by God the Father, for the salvation of His spirit children. For this defiant rebellion he was “thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,” and became Satan or the devil who “maketh war with the saints of God.” Those who do likewise, who follow Satan are called sons of perdition. (Pearl of Great Price, Moses 4:1-4). “They are they who have known my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power.” (D. & C. 76:31)

However, Lucifer was “an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God.” He had risen high in knowledge, understanding, and power. He was Lucifer, a son of the morning (of light). For his rebellion there was no excuse. He committed the unpardonable sin, in denying that of which he had full and complete knowledge. He became thereby the father of lies (See D. & C. 76:26, 32-48).

It is probable that only personages who have acquired similar full knowledge, who willfully and deliberately deny the truth, when they know it to be the truth, can commit the unpardonable sin and become sons of perdition. They are sons of perdition because, “Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to open shame” (D. & C. 76:35). They must have had a fullness of knowledge; a testimony which cannot be destroyedOne must be on a high eminence to fall so low; and few in world’s history have attained such a height.It is doubtful if even Judas, who betrayed Jesus, was sufficiently enlightened to become a son of perdition (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p. 545). Cain was called Perdition because of his sin, but it is added “for thou wast also before the world,” implying a reason from out of the pre-existent world, for this heavy punishment (Pearl of Great Price, Moses 5:24).

Moreover, the expression, sons of perdition, is often used in the scriptures to describe disciples of Satan, all who defy God and teach untruth, and who delight in lies, without necessarily committing the unpardonable sin. The many brethren and sisters who have propounded questions about the sons of perdition may rest secure that with their present knowledge they cannot become sons of perdition. (Evidences and Reconciliations, pp.212)

 

 

Well, certainly opinion. Tell me- the third host of heaven who followed Satan and became son's of perdition, were they all high ranking authorities in heaven?

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14 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Didn’t JFS say pretty clearly that Judas was the original son of perdition?

I mean, I get not judging; and I get that sometime prophets blur the line between opinion and doctrine; and I get charity; and I get that maybe there’s hope for Judas.  But, labeling him a son of perdition is not exactly a wingbat opinion within the Church; and the notion that perdition is eternal doesn’t strike me as a particularly novel doctrine either.  What am I missing?

I get confused, are you referring to the father or the son with JFS? If you are referring to the father here is an actual quote from the father Joseph F. Smith, and @Jersey Boy provided another quote below the first. He also provided another quote from John A. Widstoe:

Quote

President Joseph F. Smith (1838–1918) wrote about whether or not Judas is a son of perdition, after first referring to Doctrine and Covenants 76:31–37, 43, which describes the knowledge that must be understood and then rejected by those who become sons of perdition: “That Judas did partake of all this knowledge—that these great truths had been revealed to him—that he had received the Holy Spirit by the gift of God, and was therefore qualified to commit the unpardonable sin, is not at all clear to me. To my mind it strongly appears that not one of the disciples possessed sufficient light, knowledge nor wisdom, at the time of the crucifixion, for either exaltation or condemnation; for it was afterward that their minds were opened to understand the scriptures, and that they were endowed with power from on high; without which they were only children in knowledge, in comparison to what they afterwards became under the influence of the Spirit” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 433). (https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-student-manual/introduction-to-the-gospel-according-to-st-john/chapter-27-john-17-19?lang=eng) (emphasis mine)

Quote

It is doubtful if even Judas, who betrayed Jesus, was sufficiently enlightened to become a son of perdition (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p. 545). (emphasis mine)

Quote

Moreover, the expression, sons of perdition, is often used in the scriptures to describe disciples of Satan, all who defy God and teach untruth, and who delight in lies, without necessarily committing the unpardonable sin. The many brethren and sisters who have propounded questions about the sons of perdition may rest secure that with their present knowledge they cannot become sons of perdition. (Evidences and Reconciliations, pp.212)

Are you able to provide the exact quote, because everything I can find online, Church's website, doesn't specify what you have specified. What I am finding is more witness of the opposite of Judas. Knowing the exact quote would be helpful in this type of discussion :) 

 

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30 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, certainly opinion. Tell me- the third host of heaven who followed Satan and became son's of perdition, were they all high ranking authorities in heaven?

No. But after living in the immediate presence God and getting to intimately know the perfect divine character and attributes of their Heavenly Father and Christ for aeons, they were left without excuse. Meanwhile, Judas was living in a fallen state and had not yet received the fuller manifestation of the Holy Ghost, who testifies of the Father and the Son, that the remainimg apostles did not receive until the day of Pentecost.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;11 tOf judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (John 16)

Edited by Jersey Boy

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9 minutes ago, pam said:

I really had no idea that final judgments had already been made.  I thought that was reserved for later when we will all be judged.  

True, that is reserved for later, and accomplished by the Father, which is why we don't make eternal judgements, which is why someone who is specifying interpretation of scripture with regards to eternal judgements should stop, especially when we don't have a "unity" of current leadership and past regarding Judas sentence.

I find it telling when people will make an eternal judgement while the Lord's servants, like Elder Holland, are refraining from making such judgement and only specifying what has been said in scripture. It would be wise we follow suit instead of thinking we know of ourselves. If Judas's state was so clear we wouldn't have the contradiction we do between leaders -- past and present apostles and prophets.

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