horax

The fate of Judas Iscariot

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29 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

No. But after living in the immediate presence God and getting to intimately know the perfect divine character and attributes of their Heavenly Father and Christ for aeons, they were left without excuse. Meanwhile, Judas was living in a fallen state and had not yet received the fuller manifestation of the Holy Ghost, who testifies of the Father and the Son, that the remainimg apostles did not receive until the day of Pentecost.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;11 tOf judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (John 16)

So, do you think it's impossible for someone to decide to be evil and follow Satan in this life with their whole heart, to become a son of perdition? Like no matter how wicked, no matter how evil they are, wanting no part of what's good, to become a son of perdition?

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54 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I get confused, are you referring to the father or the son with JFS? If you are referring to the father here is an actual quote from the father Joseph F. Smith, and @Jersey Boy provided another quote below the first. He also provided another quote from John A. Widstoe:

Are you able to provide the exact quote, because everything I can find online, Church's website, doesn't specify what you have specified. What I am finding is more witness of the opposite of Judas. Knowing the exact quote would be helpful in this type of discussion :) 

 

Thanks, Anddenex. I’ll have to look it up.  I thought it was JFS, but maybe it was Talmage.  Or McConkie.  Or Widtsoe.  Or . . . 

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2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, do you think it's impossible for someone to decide to be evil and follow Satan in this life with their whole heart, to become a son of perdition? Like no matter how wicked, no matter how evil they are, wanting no part of what's good, to become a son of perdition?

The ultimate test that will determine if an evil person is going to become a son of perdition (one who will spend eternity in outer darkness in a state of total alienation from God) is this: if after said evil person has been thrust down down to hell at death, where he will be caused to suffer for his  own sins, without mitigation, for hundreds or even thousands of years, and if after all this suffering he still utterly refuses to accept Christ as Savior and repent of his sins until the last moment before the time of the final, judgement he the will suffer the second death and will become a son of perdition.

Edited by Jersey Boy

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2 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

The ultimate test that will determine if an evil person is going to become a son of perdition (one who will spend eternity in outer darkness in a state of total alienation from God) is this: if after said evil person has been thrust down down to hell at death, where he will be caused to suffer for his  own sins without mitigation for hundreds or even thousands of years, and if after all this suffering he still utterly refuses to accept Christ as Savior and repent up of his sins until the last moment before the time of the final judgement he the will suffer the second death and will become a son of perdition.

I agree with the caveat that included in this group are those who commit the unpardonable sin.

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7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I agree with the caveat that included in this group are those who commit the unpardonable sin.

So you believe there will be some who haven’t committed the unpardonable sin who, nevertheless, are still going to be damned forever in outer darkness along with the sons of perdition who have committed the unpardonable sin?

Edited by Jersey Boy

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4 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

So you believe there will be some who haven’t committed the unpardonable sin who, nevertheless, are still going to be damned forever in outer darkness along with the sons of perdition who have committed the unpardonable sin?

Sure. No man is forced into heaven. If one seeks to remain unrepentant then they will be cast out with the devil and his angels too.

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Part of the Confusion I see is that Joseph F. Smith has been misquoted to a little degree in what he stated.  In the 19th printing of Gospel Doctrine on page 433 he states

Quote

No, if Judas really had known God's power, and had partaken thereof, and did actually "deny the truth" and "defy" that power, "having denied the Holy Spirit after he had received it" unto him, then there can be no doubt that he "will die the second death."

That Judas did partake of all this knowledge-that these great truths had been revealed to him-that he had received the Holy Sirit by the gift of God, and was therefore qualified to commit the unpardonable sin, is not at all clear to me. 

Then the portion to which he has been quoted for is stated, but that is still ONLY A PORTION Of what he said.  It was given originally NOT as a talk, but in the Improvement Era.  Listed in the Book above as Improvement Era, Vol. 21, June 1918, p. 732

His argument in regards to HIS OPINION which he is expressing and tries to make clear that it is  this, is that they did not receive the light of the Holy Ghost until after the death of the Lord.  He also points out to Saul having been forgiven and also David having been forgiven. then points out the words of the Lord that stated "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).  He has this as an application not just to the Roman soldiers but to all those...which is INTERESTING considering he also stated that the Jews who participated were as to Sons of Perditions. 

However, with that basis he states.

Quote

No man can sin against light until he has it; nor against the Holy Ghost, until after he has received it by the gift of God through the appointed channel or way.  To sin against the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, the comforter, the Witness of the Father and the Son, willfully denying him and defying him, after having received him, constitutes this sin.  Did Judas possess this light, this witness, this comforter, this baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, this endowment from on high?  If he did, he received it before the betrayal and therefore before the other eleven apostles.  And if this be so, you may say, "he is a son of perdition without hope."  But if he was destitute of this glorious gift and outpouring of the Spirit, by which the witness came to the eleven, and their minds were opened to see and know the truth, and they were able to testify of him, then what constituted the unpardonable sin of this poor, erring creature, who rose no higher in the scale of intelligence, honor or ambition than to betray the Lord of glory for thirty pieces of silver?

But not knowing that Judas did commit the unpardonable sin; nor that he was a "son of perdition without hope" who will die the second death, nor what knowledge he possessed by which he was able to commit so great a sin, I prefer, until I know better, to take the merciful view that he may be numbered among those for whom  the blessed Master prayed, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

Note, that this basis of his opinion is upon the idea that the Holy Spirit had not touched the apostles PRIOR to the Day of Pentecost or until after the death of our lord.  He does NOT say that Judas is NOT, but that he is of a merciful opinion that he may be saved.

In addition, in that light it means that there cannot be more firm revelation of a convincing style of that knowledge or information or that would also condemn an individual as such if they had that stronger confirmation of light and knowledge to where they know rather than just believe.  In absence of these, he is hopeful and utilizes that it did not come until AFTER the Lord's crucifixion. 

But, then there is this...

Matthew 16: 13-20

Quote

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

How does one receive this revelation from Heaven?

Furthermore, there are those who believe that we have the SURE sign of knowledge, that of the SECOND Comforter who is of even greater revelation than the Holy Ghost and will come to teach us face to face and grant us knowledge in that area. 

Of other interesting notes in regards to (and this is where the post gets exceptionally long for those of you who dislike long posts) wickedness of which Judas was a participant I take a portion of the same book (Gospel Doctrines, p 477) where he states

Quote

You cannot take a murderer, a suicide, and adulterer, a liar or one who was or is thoroughly abominable in his life, here, and simply by the performance of an ordinance of the gospel, cleanse him from sin and usher him into the presence of God.  God has not instituted a plan of that kind, and it cannot be done.

So, regardless of other items, it seems to indicate heavily that Judas in the very least also committed suicide. 

He also states, of those who committed FAR less of a sin than Judas did at the same time period...

Quote

The sons of perdition, men who once were in possession of the light and truth, but who turned away from them and denied the lord, putting him to an open shame, as did the Jews when they crucified him and said, "His blodd be on us, and on our children;" men who consent, against light and knowledge, to the shedding of innocent blood, it will be said unto them, "Depart from me, ye cursed."  (Matt. 25:41) I never knew you; depart into the second death, even banishment from the presence of God for ever and ever, where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched, from whence there is no redemption, neither in time nor in eternity.  Herein is the difference between the second and the first death wherein man became spiritually dead; for fro the first death he may be redeemed by the blood of Christ, through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, but from the second, there I no redemption at all.

(Gospel Principles, pg 451).

So, Joseph F. Smith did not exactly say Judas was NOT a Son of Perdition, only that he was not able to make the judgment of whether he was or not.  He conditionally stated that it was completely possible that Judas was actually one, but that without more knowledge specific to the situation that he could not say specifically that, and in such light was hopeful of the idea that Judas could at least, in part, be redeemed or saved from Hell.  However, he also was explicit in stating that if Judas HAD gotten revelation from the Spirit (as we do or should when we get testimonies ourselves from the Holy Ghost, but to a degree even GREATER to that where Judas would KNOW rather than just believe) he would, indeed, be a Son of Perdition.

There is evidence that at least Peter had this type of knowledge, though one may interpret it otherwise.  If Peter, then possibly other apostles as well.  Thus, unless quoting the Lord (who as per John called Judas a Son of Perdition), a position where one leaves it to the Lord is probably best.  Letting it lie in the hands of the judgment of the Lord as we are not the final judge is also a good course of action, but quoting the lord is NOT wrong.  It would seem the Joseph F. Smith does NOT ascribe total judgment, but does quote the Lord and conditionally puts the position forth while at the same time admitting that it is the LORD who is judge and the final judgment lies upon him.

However, I don't think it is good to try to humanize Judas or ascribe to him sympathetic positions and I do not feel Joseph F. Smith would have pushed this either...as on Page 477 (the potion PRIOR to what I quoted previously) states.

Quote

We have a few people among us who are so wrapped up in and so devoted to some of their kindred who have been guilty of every species of abomination and wickedness in the world, that, the moment they are dead they will come and ask for permission to go into the house of God to perform the ordinances of the gospel for their redemption.  I do not blame them for their affection for their dead, or do I blame them for the desire in their heart to do something for their salvation, but I do not admire their wisdom, nor can I agree with their conception of right and justice.  you cannot take a murderer, a suicide, an adulterer, a liar, or one who was or is thouroughly abominable in his life, here, and simply by the performance of an ordinance of the gospel, cleanse him from sin and usher him into the presence of God.  God has not instituted a plan of that kind and it annot be done.  - Life of Joseph F. Smith, p. 399

PS: I apologize for any typing errors.  Unlike how I usually like to copy and paste things from online, this document is not one I easily find online and thus I had to type out the quotes myself.

Edited by JohnsonJones

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5 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

However, I don't think it is good to try to humanize Judas or ascribe to him sympathetic positions...

Why?  The stories and lessons in Scripture are stories and lessons about humanity, and how we interact with God.  To understand the lessons we have to understand the people in them.  Joseph F. Smith was talking about the decision to perform ordinances for people who lived evil lives.  He didn't say we shouldn't pity them, or acknowledge that they were, in fact, living humans who made a series of extremely poor decisions and wound up dying with such massive sin blackening them that they may well be irretrievably lost.  

I do humanize Judas and I do pity him.  He was our brother.  He was stupid in a way that's so profound and yet... if it's a way that we can understand and maybe even relate to, then there's a lesson to be learned here.  If  the material I read was correct and Judas' motive was to force Jesus to become a revolutionary Messiah, then that's a direct lesson to us who have the wisdom to learn it.  If you've ever said something like "I really wish the Good Lord would come down here and wipe out all this evil around us right now!"  Well, that's just what Judas wanted too, so what does that say about you, Captain Instigator?  Maybe it says that there's a part of all of us that becomes impatient, wanting the Lord to act as we desire, and not according to His plan.  

And if Judas really was motivated by nothing more than a bag of coins, or was just plain evil, then that would have to mean he was utterly blind and deaf to every single lesson Jesus ever taught, and if that's so, then that doesn't say very good things about the awareness of the other 11 Apostles, who somehow managed to avoid recognizing an utterly clueless and greedy dirtbag for what he was in the 3 or so years they were together.

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On 10/2/2012 at 6:44 AM, horax said:

We all know teh story of Judas and how he sold Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.

I have always wondered exactly what his fate woudl be. We see that in Matthew, Judas felt badly when he saw how Jesus was being treated and returned the money. However, when Jesus was not released and the money was not accepted, he killed himself.

I believe that Juda's chariot was towed away by a group of Roman soldiers after he illegaly parked it outside Pilate's Palace while watching a late night/early morning trial that was being held. The final fate of Juda's chariot will depend on whether or not he pays the release fee. I think he can afford it because its not likely to cost more than 30 pieces of silver. I think our concern for Juda's chariot is misplaced - we should be far more concerned about the fate of it's owner. The release fee for Juda will be much higher than 30 peices of silver and it will be paid for with Christ's blood

Edited by askandanswer

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These verses give some indication about the relative culpability of Judas as compared with Pilate, so if we find something definitive about the fate of Pilate, we will know that the fate of Judas will be even worse.

11  Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
12  And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Cæsar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Cæsar.
 

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I submit that if we base our guesstimates on the ultimate fate of Pilate solely on what he did and did not do in relation to CHrist's crucifixion, then we could conclude that his sin was not as grievous of those of King David. Both Pilate and David used their authority to arrange, or allow to be arranged, the death of a person who they knew to be innocent. We have some idea of the fate of David - 1,000 years in Hell, after which he will then be released. It may be that Pilate will suffer a similar fate. If so, knowing from John 18:11 that he who delivered Christ until Pilate will suffer a worse fate than that of Pilate, this sets a minimum limit on the amount of suffering that Judas is likely to experience. 

On the other hand, I think the life of Martin Harris could contribute to this discussion. He saw and heard amazing things, then left the church and in effect, for a while, seemingly denied his faith, only to return later in life to full and active membership.  

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1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

However, I don't think it is good to try to humanize Judas or ascribe to him sympathetic positions and I do not feel Joseph F. Smith would have pushed this either...as on Page 477 (the potion PRIOR to what I quoted previously) states.

Your overall assessment is what I have been stating this whole time. Let's leave the final judgement to the Father, and only specify what is said in scripture. This is why I was pointing our Elder Holland who did just what you are saying:

Quote

Never in the history of this world has so little money purchased so much infamy. We are not the ones to judge Judas’s fate, but Jesus said of His betrayer, ‘Good [were it] for that man if he had not been born.’ [Matthew 26:24]” (“None Were with Him,” Ensign or Liahona, May 2009, 86). (emphasis mine) (Source)

The road Elder Holland takes is that we aren't to judge the fate of Judas, but we recognize what Jesus has said about him. So quoting scripture and leaving a personal interpretation like Rob mentioned, ""Judas is lost, forever lost," is not within our scope of judgement. :)

But simply stating what is said in scripture, as you say, is NOT wrong. I don't think anyone on here was specifying quoting scripture is wrong. It was the interpretation and eternal judgements that I was calling out as wrong.

Personally, I think we find more agreement than disagreement.

Edited by Anddenex

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1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

The road Elder Holland takes is that we aren't to judge the fate of Judas, but we recognize what Jesus has said about him. So quoting scripture and leaving a personal interpretation like Rob mentioned, ""Judas is lost, forever lost," is not within our scope of judgement. :)

There's nothing to interpret. Jesus calls him a son of perdition. There isn't no personal interpretation to be had. It's cut and dried, plain and simple- Judas is a son of perdition and sons of perdition are lost just as Christ said he is lost and won't be saved.

Edited by Rob Osborn

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1 minute ago, unixknight said:

I guess we'd better call Elder Holland and set him straight.

We don't need an apostle to tell us when we have the testimony of the scriptures before us. The scriptures carry the weight.

 

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1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

There's nothing to interpret. Jesus calls him a son of perfition. There isn't no personal interpretation to be had. It's cut and dried, plain and simple- Judas is a son of perdition.

I am still unsure why this is such a hard concept for you to follow. Let's review what has been said, quoting scripture is not the problem. Making an eternal judgement is wrong. Let's review the example -- once more -- given by Elder Holland who said the following:

Quote

We are not the ones to judge Judas’s fate, but Jesus said of His betrayer, ‘Good [were it] for that man if he had not been born.’ [Matthew 26:24]” (“None Were with Him,” Ensign or Liahona, May 2009, 86). (emphasis mine) (Source)

Let's read carefully what I have said along with Elder Holland. We are not to judge Judas's fate, this is an eternal judgement. BUT, let us recognize what scriptures have said, "Good [were it] for that man if he had not been born." And scripture point him to be a son of perdition, and people have shown prophets and apostles words that give interpretation and we can see they aren't unified.

Now let's review what Rob has done despite the comment and understanding as sons and daughters of God we aren't to make any eternal judgements toward Judas.

Rob said, "Judas is lost, forever lost." - eternal judgement

Elder Holland said, "We are not the ones to judge Judas's fate." - Non eternal judgement.

If you can't understand this still, then there is no more reason to continue this discussion. This is really simple concepts to recognize and understand.

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1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

We don't need an apostle to tell us when we have the testimony of the scriptures before us. The scriptures carry the weight.

 

Cool.  You want to call him or do you want me to?  I mean, since you're better at interpreting Scripture and all.  I'm sure he'd appreciate it!

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1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

I am still unsure why this is such a hard concept for you to follow. Let's review what has been said, quoting scripture is not the problem. Making an eternal judgement is wrong. Let's review the example -- once more -- given by Elder Holland who said the following:

Let's read carefully what I have said along with Elder Holland. We are not to judge Judas's fate, this is an eternal judgement. BUT, let us recognize what scriptures have said, "Good [were it] for that man if he had not been born." And scripture point him to be a son of perdition, and people have shown prophets and apostles words that give interpretation and we can see they aren't unified.

Now let's review what Rob has done despite the comment and understanding as sons and daughters of God we aren't to make any eternal judgements toward Judas.

Rob said, "Judas is lost, forever lost." - eternal judgement

Elder Holland said, "We are not the ones to judge Judas's fate." - Non eternal judgement.

If you can't understand this still, then there is no more reason to continue this discussion. This is really simple concepts to recognize and understand.

I don't think Rob is alone with these assessments, and there are many inside the LDS church and outside that share the same view. 

The following is not aimed at you, your post just made an good bouncing board for it...

The thing that I find disturbing are when people try to create excuses or make up excuses on why he was the "best" or was motivated to do "good" when there really isn't any revelation or reference to such an idea.  It's trying to imagine that he was a good individual rather than recognize what was stated about him.  If he was "good" in his betrayal than the scriptures are silent on this matter and the Testimony of John, much less others seem to indicate the exact opposite of him doing good or being good in the matter.  If revelation ever comes that says contrary, that is one thing, but thus far I have not seen that.  Trying to acquit him in absentia contrary to everything we see in the scriptures seems misguided.

Rob would be considered quite accurate by many, including many Faithful members of the LDS church.  To account him as wrong or looking at it in a wrong view is not really a beneficial idea.

For most of history Judas has been considered as a Son of Perdition and going to Hell.  It is not a new idea.  It's been around almost literally since the crucifixion.  The gap some Mormons would use (and which probably some prophets even saw) is that their view of Heaven and Hell is more limited to an idea of Spirit Prison and Spirit Paradise in that we go immediately to one or the other upon Death. 

In this, there is a high likelihood that they are correct as the New Testament seems to indicate that he commit suicide.  ONLY recently has the LDS church started changing it's own dialogue on this matter as originally it was a sin considered akin to murder (murder of self, which is not one's life to take).  In the past this has been considered a pretty serious sin that would send someone to Spirit Prison except in very exceptional circumstances where it would depend more on the individuals state of mind and understanding at that time they committed suicide. 

The Lord DID state it would have been better for Judas to not have been born (in paraphrase) which is used specifically in another verse that LDS Saints use in describing Sons of Perdition. 

There are indications that there may be several different ways to view who is or what is a Son of Perdition.  Joseph Smith used it to describe some of his enemies at times, even those who obviously did NOT have a full knowledge, and many who would not even be as believing as Judas was. 

I see Rob merely stating what the Lord himself stated, and as such, there is NO harm in what he says.  It is a valid viewpoint in my opinion.  Even Joseph F. Smith called Judas a Son of Perdition IF certain circumstances were met. 

I don't think Rob is judging, but rather simply restating what he has read in the Bible.  I think MANY have done this through the ages and MANY have been faithful Saints in this manner as well.  IN MY OPINION they will not be condemned for repeating and literally believing what they have read in the New Testament or other scriptures.

That said, Joseph F. Smith took a more conservative and merciful outlook upon it where he proclaimed Judas Iscariot as able to be a Son of Perdition, and absolutely one if one specific item had occurred.  The New Testament indicates that this condition may actually have been met.  However, it is NOT EXPLICIT and hence his hope. 

He takes the idea of judgment being the Lord and the Lord's alone to it's epitome in many ways and says there is not enough information to go on in this matter to fully make an absolute statement...and I agree for one and ONLY for one reason. 

If one believes this then it would apply to ANY who has ever lived on this earth though...which brings to mind and interesting item to ponder.

Joseph Fielding Smith stated

Quote

Sons of Perdition willfully reject Atonement.  With the Latter-day Saints, this is not so. While it is true we teach that a man must comply with these principles of the gospel in order to receive salvation and exaltation in the kingdom of heaven -- which is proved by many passages of scripture -- nevertheless, we hold out the hope that all may be saved, excepting the sons of perdition, a class that wilfully rejects the atonement of the Savior, for the Lord intends to save all the workmanship of his hands, save these few who will not receive salvation. Our doctrine consigns none others to perdition, but holds forth the hope that all will eventually be saved in some degree of glory. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:140)

I mentioned this slightly above.  In MY BELIEF a Son of Perdition is one who rejects the atonement.  They do this either because they cannot or will not accept it.  They have sided with the enemy fully and thus will NEVER accept the gift freely offered from the other side, OR they were there with the enemy from the beginning, OR they for some other reason reject it and will not accept it.

Thus, if Judas decides to accept such a thing...if that held true, it may be that he could be saved.

At the time of his death it did not indicate that he was working towards this.  In the exact opposite of it, he seemed instead to give himself up for lost and hanged himself rather than seeking repentance by reparation and change.  In addition he continued to break the law even further by committing self murder.  This, along with the words which the Lord spoke indicate that he may not receive that salvation as he rejected it.

HOWEVER, we do not know.  In theory, anyone might make a change in their life and only the LORD truly knows what is in one's heart.  Only at the end will we know who truly becomes a Son of Perdition and who is saved by the Grace of Jesus Christ.

Edited by JohnsonJones

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2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

I am still unsure why this is such a hard concept for you to follow. Let's review what has been said, quoting scripture is not the problem. Making an eternal judgement is wrong. Let's review the example -- once more -- given by Elder Holland who said the following:

Let's read carefully what I have said along with Elder Holland. We are not to judge Judas's fate, this is an eternal judgement. BUT, let us recognize what scriptures have said, "Good [were it] for that man if he had not been born." And scripture point him to be a son of perdition, and people have shown prophets and apostles words that give interpretation and we can see they aren't unified.

Now let's review what Rob has done despite the comment and understanding as sons and daughters of God we aren't to make any eternal judgements toward Judas.

Rob said, "Judas is lost, forever lost." - eternal judgement

Elder Holland said, "We are not the ones to judge Judas's fate." - Non eternal judgement.

If you can't understand this still, then there is no more reason to continue this discussion. This is really simple concepts to recognize and understand.

You have a bizarre definition of what it means to judge someone vs. acknowledge their condition. I'm acknowledging that he is a son of perdition and that the atonement doesn't cover him and therefore he is lost. This is exactly what the scriptures state. The judgment has already been passed on him by God. I'm just acknowledging those judgments. That's not the definition of judging.

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3 hours ago, unixknight said:

Cool.  You want to call him or do you want me to?  I mean, since you're better at interpreting Scripture and all.  I'm sure he'd appreciate it!

Look, we shouldn't have to interpret scripture through the lens of the apostles various opinions. Their opinions are no different than you or I, it carries the same weight.

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6 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Sure. No man is forced into heaven. If one seeks to remain unrepentant then they will be cast out with the devil and his angels too.

I’m beginning to think that the reason why you are so often in error is because you likely never had a good grounding in, and testimony of, the gospel basics before you stated entertaining ideas and concepts that are contrary to the foundational doctrines of the Church.

With regard to the above statement, I don’t think you thought it through. I say this because anyone who is consigned to outer darkness after the resurrection is, by very definition, a son of perdition, even one who rebels against God and utterly rejects His salvation while basking  in the full light of spiritual noonday.

Perhaps you haven’t considered the fact that the spirits in the darkness of the spirit prison will be often ministered to by glorious ministering spirits sent from the paradise of God, and that these heavenly messengers will repeatedly testify with great power that God loves them eternally and nothing would make Him happier than to be able to forgive and bless them with salvation.

What this means is that by the time of the final judgement there won’t be a single spirit in the spirit prison who won’t have a perfect awareness of the existence, love and salvation of God. Therefore every spirit who refuses to accept Christ and repent at the final judgement will be doing so with their eyes wide open. If you don’t believe me, just look at the overwhelmingly hellish experience of Alma the younger who came to a perfect realization that he desperately needed to accept Christ and repent if he was ever going to be able to escape the sore and exquisitely painful judgements of God upon the sinner.

31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; (D&C 76)

Edited by Jersey Boy

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Wow, this discussion has been going on since 2012?  Perhaps it was necromanced recently -- I haven't checked out the entire thread.

But, here's my two cents.  And I get this idea from Orson Scott Card, who wrote the script for Living Scriptures Dramatized New Testament.  In that dramatization, he suggests that Judas had gotten frustrated with Jesus's failure to use his powers and popularity to begin the revolt against Rome that Judas and some others had expected and wanted him to begin.  And Judas arranged matters so that Jesus would be put into a position where he would have to use his powers to show to the Sanhedrin that he was actually the Messiah.  And instead of doing this as Judas expected, Jesus allowed them to condemn him to death.  And news of this is what caused Judas to kill himself, realizing finally the depth of his betrayal.  Of course, Card also suggests that Judas was rather too concerned for money and may even have mishandled the funds entrusted to him.

Personally, I don't believe that Judas was sufficiently guilty to be a Son of Perdition.  It seems to me that it is possible that he may be able to repent and be worthy of the Terrestrial Kingdom. After all, Jesus himself said that even those who denied him could be forgiven.

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1 minute ago, Starwatcher said:

Personally, I don't believe that Judas was sufficiently guilty to be a Son of Perdition.  It seems to me that it is possible that he may be able to repent and be worthy of the Terrestrial Kingdom. After all, Jesus himself said that even those who denied him could be forgiven.

Amen. Well said. Welcome to the forums, by the way. 

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3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

There's nothing to interpret. Jesus calls him a son of perdition. There isn't no personal interpretation to be had. It's cut and dried, plain and simple- Judas is a son of perdition and sons of perdition are lost just as Christ said he is lost and won't be saved.

That’s your assumption. Christ was very likely be speaking of every individual who will become a son of perdition. And that would be doctrinally true because, according to D&C 76, the only ones who will be lost are the sons of perdition. Otherwise, only way one would be able to know for sure is if Christ said ‘the only one who is lost is Judas Iscariot.’

A question: do you think that the Savior was teaching there is only one man (Judas) who will ever become as son of perdition?

Edited by Jersey Boy

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