The fate of Judas Iscariot


horax
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1 hour ago, thecodercody said:

Does it really make sense to you guys that Judas, one of the top disciples of Christ, would turn his Master in for such a measly amount of money?  Really?  I think we shouldn't understand it just how it appears on the surface, and it deserves more thought.  If we look at historical texts, we can see a bit of a different story.

The Muslims believe that another was made to be crucified in Jesus's place, which at first seems contradictory to LDS doctrine, but is, in fact, not.  This is the relevant passage from the Qur'an:  "And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.  Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise."

In the Gospel of Judas, which was discovered in 2006, Jesus ASKS Judas to betray him: National Geographic - The Gospel of Judas

In the ancient text, "The Gospel of Barnabas," a proven fake text that derived many things from an earlier, genuine Gnostic text, it states the following:

"Whereupon the wonderful God acted wonderfully, insomuch that Judas was so changed in speech and in face to be like Jesus that we believed him to be Jesus. And he, having awakened us, was seeking where the Master was. Whereupon we marvelled, and answered: ‘You, Lord, are our master; have you now forgotten us?’

And he, smiling, said: ‘Now are you foolish, that know not me to be Judas Iscariot!’ And as he was saying this the soldiery entered, and laid their hands upon Judas, because he was in every way like to Jesus. We having heard Judas’ saying, and seeing the multitude of soldiers, fled as beside ourselves. And John, who was wrapped in a linen cloth, awoke and fled, and when a soldier seized him by the linen cloth he left the linen cloth and fled naked. For God heard the prayer of Jesus, and saved the eleven from evil.”

Chapter 217: Judas was Crucified “The soldiers took Judas; and bound him, not without derision. For he truthfully denied that he was Jesus; and the soldiers, mocking him, said: ‘Sir, fear not, for we are come to make you king of Israel, and we have bound you because we know that you do refuse the kingdom.’ Judas answered: ‘Now have you lost your senses! You are come to take Jesus of Nazareth, with arms and lanterns as [against] a robber; and you have bound me that have guided you, to make me king!’ … So they led him to Mount Calvary, where they used to hang malefactors, and there they crucified him naked;, for the greater ignominy. Judas truly did nothing else but cry out: ‘God, why have you forsaken me, seeing the malefactor has escaped and I die unjustly?’ *Truly I say that the voice, the face, and the person of Judas were so like to Jesus, that his disciples and believers entirely believed that he was Jesus; …”

How can the Gnostics, Christians, and Muslims all be correct?  I present an alternative hypothesis:

Judas betrays Jesus so that he will owe him his life, and before the crucifixion, their spirits  swapped places.  We can see this is affirmed in the Gnostic text The Second Great Treatise of Seth, which talks about the Christ who inhabits the body of Jesus: "I visited a bodily dwelling. I cast out the one who was in it first, and I went in." The text continues, "And I was the one who was in the image, not resembling him who was in the body first. For he was an earthly man, but I, I am from above the heavens."

It also states: "It was another upon whom they placed the crown of thorns.  But I was rejoicing in the height over all the wealth of the rulers and the offspring of their error, of their empty glory. And I was laughing at their ignorance."

Some people believe it was Simon of Cyrene who was crucified instead of Christ, though.  I'm not trying to prove anything, but just present an alternative hypothesis.  If Judas's spirit swapped placed with Christ's, then it can be true that Jesus died on the Cross AND the Son of Man did NOT die on the cross.  I favor this viewpoint.  Why?  Because then it means all of the Christians, Muslims, Gnostics, etc. are correct, so that leaves no reason for anybody to argue and fight or try to convert other people from their own good faith to ours.  It is a more tolerant viewpoint and more accepting and loving than the selfish notion that only we have all the Truth.

Just my two cents.  Curious what y'all think.

You aren't LDS are you?

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1 hour ago, thecodercody said:

Does it really make sense to you guys that Judas, one of the top disciples of Christ, would turn his Master in for such a measly amount of money?

Well, some folks believe that.  As you can see from the thread, his motivations have been a subject of debate.

1 hour ago, thecodercody said:

The Muslims believe that another was made to be crucified in Jesus's place, which at first seems contradictory to LDS doctrine, but is, in fact, not.  This is the relevant passage from the Qur'an:  "And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.  Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise."

It isn't clear to me how that doesn't contradict LDS (or the wider Christian) doctrine.

1 hour ago, thecodercody said:

In the Gospel of Judas, which was discovered in 2006, Jesus ASKS Judas to betray him: National Geographic - The Gospel of Judas

...to the extent that this document is regarded as canon.  As of this moment, it is not.

1 hour ago, thecodercody said:

In the ancient text, "The Gospel of Barnabas," a proven fake text that derived many things from an earlier, genuine Gnostic text, it states the following:

If the text is proven fake, why is it relevant here?

1 hour ago, thecodercody said:

How can the Gnostics, Christians, and Muslims all be correct?  

They aren't.

1 hour ago, thecodercody said:

I present an alternative hypothesis:

It's an interesting hypothesis, but the  trouble with it is that it contradicts not only the very foundation of modern Christian doctrine (including LDS) but it also conflicts with the message of that doctrine... which in part rests on the notion that only Jesus, as the Son of God, could redeem the world because He Himself was sinless.  This hypothesis essentially creates a disparity between Jesus the Christ and the Son of Man, which is not consistent either with other, known, canonical Scripture nor with prior prophecy.

1 hour ago, thecodercody said:

 Because then it means all of the Christians, Muslims, Gnostics, etc. are correct, so that leaves no reason for anybody to argue and fight or try to convert other people from their own good faith to ours.  It is a more tolerant viewpoint and more accepting and loving than the selfish notion that only we have all the Truth.

 I think even if this idea were to  gain traction, there's still plenty for people to fight over.  Common elements between those religious systems already exist and it doesn't seem to make much difference.

Edited by unixknight
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  • 4 years later...
On 10/1/2012 at 2:44 PM, horax said:

We all know teh story of Judas and how he sold Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.

I have always wondered exactly what his fate woudl be. We see that in Matthew, Judas felt badly when he saw how Jesus was being treated and returned the money. However, when Jesus was not released and the money was not accepted, he killed himself.

Would he be more guilty of killing himself and not enduring to the end (and not being able to repent of his action of killing himself in this life) or of fulfilling a prophecy set forth by Jeremiah that one of Jesus' apostles would betray him?

Also, one of my seminary students asked me this morning if Judas would be cast into outer darkness as a son of perdition since he walked with Christ and yet denied him.

I said I'd do reserach, but I don't think he ever actually DENIED Christ or his teachings. He was presented an opportunity by Satan and he took it (which was wrong). I'm pretty sure all the apostles were tempted at differetn times, but Judas let the thought linger in his mind and eventually it took root in his heart and it ruined him.

I have been looking through Jesus the Christ by Talmage as a reference, and I am going to go thorugh it again tonight, but if memory servefs he mentions how Judas is in perhaps the worst state ever due to his betrayal of the Lord. He mentions how you cannot walk a gray line in serving Christ. Either you follow him or you do not...you support God or you support Satan.

According to his ideas, Judas might be in big trouble as he walked and talked with Deity and yet chose to serve the Evil One. At that moment, it's highly possible that he damned himself from further progression and would ultimately be cast into outer darkness.

Remember, outer darkness is the only place where Eternal Progression is halted. You can progress in the Telestial, Celestial, and Terrestrial kingdoms, but you cannot progress OUT of them.

What are your thoughts on this?

In the Book of Mormon we read how the 12 disciples will  help judge the people and another 12 ( 12 from when Christ comes to visit the people in 3rd Nephi)will judge. 

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On 10/1/2012 at 8:52 PM, prisonchaplain said:

I'm no expert on LDS prophet quotes, but I might suggest a yes answer to these. Jesus did impart the Holy Ghost to his disciples.

That Judas walked with Jesus for three years would suggest that the heavens had opened to him. He literally knew God. If Judas still had a chance at one of the heavenly kingdoms--even the Telestial one, would it not be better for him, despite his shame, that he was born, than that he had never been born?

Christ’s intercessory prayer makes it clear that his disciples had not yet received the Holy Ghost, even though it was at the end of his earthly ministry, and he told them that they wouldn’t receive the Holy Ghost until sometime after his resurrection. On that holy night of the Last Supper and his entry into Gethsemane, the Lord instructed his disciples that as long as he remained in mortality they could not receive the Holy Ghost, but that he would send forth the Holy Ghost to abide with them soon after his resurrection. In fulfillment of this promise, the resurrected Lord’s disciples did receive the Holy Ghost soon thereafter on the Day of Pentecost.

What this indicates is that Judas had not received the Holy Ghost and it’s therefore unlikely that he’s a son of perdition.

Edited by Jersey Boy
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On 5/21/2023 at 1:13 PM, Jersey Boy said:

Christ’s intercessory prayer makes it clear that his disciples had not yet received the Holy Ghost, even though it was at the end of his earthly ministry, and he told them that they wouldn’t receive the Holy Ghost until sometime after his resurrection. On that holy night of the Last Supper and his entry into Gethsemane, the Lord instructed his disciples that as long as he remained in mortality they could not receive the Holy Ghost, but that he would send forth the Holy Ghost to abide with them soon after his resurrection. In fulfillment of this promise, the resurrected Lord’s disciples did receive the Holy Ghost soon thereafter on the Day of Pentecost.

What this indicates is that Judas had not received the Holy Ghost and it’s therefore unlikely that he’s a son of perdition.

The Holy Ghost may not have been fully operative during the Savior's mortal ministry but I don't think we can say it was not operative at all. For example, when Jesus asked his apostles who people think he was and then asked them who he was Peter responded by saying he was the Christ, to which Jesus said "flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." So revelation through the Spirit was still happening. But later he also told Peter "when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." So it's hard to say what the role of the Holy Ghost was during this period.

Here's what we do know about what Jesus said about Judas Iscariot: Matt 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

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@laronius literally just gave the answer I typed out. That's the danger of respond-as-you-go. Summary: I suspect there is a difference between receiving the Holy Ghost and experiencing the Holy Ghost. The latter is always possible for any sincere soul. The former can be done only through covenant and, apparently, not in its fullness when you live next door to the mortal Jesus Christ and interact with him daily.

Edited by Vort
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3 hours ago, Vort said:

@laronius literally just gave the answer I typed out. That's the danger of respond-as-you-go. Summary: I suspect there is a difference between receiving the Holy Ghost and experiencing the Holy Ghost. The latter is always possible for any sincere soul. The former can be done only through covenant and, apparently, not in its fullness when you live next door to the mortal Jesus Christ and interact with him daily.

I'll take that as a compliment. 😀

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