"Deep doctrine": Understanding the basics or chasing the mysteries?


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As I've already stated, the quote you posted is the only time it's ever been mentioned that can be found doing a search for "Deep Doctrine" on LDS.org. I do believe it's not refered to in a positive light as he's saying don't expound on it. I apologize for not refering to it more directly in my previous post.

I would like someone to share a quote from a past Conference Talk or a Church Manual or article in a church magazine where we are encouraged to study or share "Deep Doctrine"

I don't think that quote has anything to do with "positive light" or negative. It is simply a caution to not get into "deep" doctrine when those that have a weak testimony or investigators are around as it might confuse them. That is simply a caution as to when to discuss it. It is not a statement to not discuss "deep doctrine".

To me that is like saying 'try not to teach algebra in kindergarten or you might discourage the children from liking math'. Why are you seeing that as not a positive light? We all have to learn line upon line. The gospel is not intended to be some mystery (in my opinion) but can seem that way when the information is not learned in a uniform and intended way. A person has to have the spiritual skills to understand "deep doctrine". As those things are learned spiritually and not in a secular fashion it should be discussed only amongst those that could receive such light. Otherwise the gospel can come across, to some, as a set of mysterious secrets or a confusing puzzle and that would only detract from God's purposes.

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Does the often-used (in Mormondom) term "deep doctrine" mean to plunge into the so-called "mysteries", or does it mean to gain a very firm understanding of the basic, foundational tenets of our religion? Or something else?

1. What does it mean in everyday parlance, when people in your gospel doctrine class use it?

2. What does it really mean, or in other words, what should it mean?

1. I think a lot of the time it's used as a flag to say, "Warning, there be speculation ahead!" Not that it's always used that way, but when I hear the phrase I automatically brace for something pulled partly from the scriptures, partly from an older General Authority book, and in large part from the back corner of someone's mind. Nothing wrong with the 'deep' portion, nothing wrong with pondering, it's the calling of it 'doctrine' that I brace myself for.

2. I don't think it's a doctrinal term that it should have a specific meaning such as say something like spirit prison which we used to describe one of the two hells. That said, I'm certainly biased in how I'm likely to interpret the use of the phrase with limited context. If you want to discuss 'deep doctrine' with me you're best off just discussing it with me without trying to append the label, after I've heard you out I'll reach my own conclusion of if you're just speculating in the absence of doctrine or if you're sharing insight into the doctrines of the kingdom.

Edited by Dravin
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Be careful what you ask for...

"On April 9, 1852, Brigham Young rose once again to address a session of general conference. He intended to preach several discourses, he said, and as the Deseret News observed the following week, "the Holy Ghost [rested] upon [him] in great power, while he revealed some of the precious things of the kingdom. One of his subjects was the "mysteries of the kingdom." If mysteries were to be taught, Young advised, they should be discussed here, for this "is the place for you to teach great mysteries to your brethren, because here are those who can correct you." After brief comments on amusements and tithing, Young proceeded to a dramatic announcement:" :ph34r:

HiJolly

Ok I ask for a quote using the term "Deep Doctrine" and I get one on "Mysteries". Earlier on this thread we had an awesome quote on "Mysteries". So I guess to you Deep Doctrine means Mysteries.

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I don't think that quote has anything to do with "positive light" or negative. It is simply a caution to not get into "deep" doctrine when those that have a weak testimony or investigators are around as it might confuse them. That is simply a caution as to when to discuss it. It is not a statement to not discuss "deep doctrine".

I don't mean negative as in bad, I meant negative as in 'do not'.

To me that is like saying 'try not to teach algebra in kindergarten or you might discourage the children from liking math'. Why are you seeing that as not a positive light? We all have to learn line upon line. The gospel is not intended to be some mystery (in my opinion) but can seem that way when the information is not learned in a uniform and intended way. A person has to have the spiritual skills to understand "deep doctrine". As those things are learned spiritually and not in a secular fashion it should be discussed only amongst those that could receive such light. Otherwise the gospel can come across, to some, as a set of mysterious secrets or a confusing puzzle and that would only detract from God's purposes.

I agree with you.

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I think that any plan or process that involves providing, over a lengthy period of time, an opportunity for untold billions of undeveloped spirits to transform into God-like creatures, and then providing a number of happy outcomes for those who fail to make the transformation, involves far more doctrine than what has or ever will be revealed, in the scriptures, in the temple, or in talks by Prophets, Apostles and General Authorities. I think this unrevealed information could probably fit under the heading of deep something, although once have been discovered through rigorous study, research and analysis, , any such information could not be called doctrine until it had been confirmed as such through the proper channels. I think in the Plan of Salvation, we have been given a few short headlines, but not the detailed articles that come under the headlines. I think the real deep doctrine is not the Plan of Salvation question, but the "how" questions: how does God create worlds? how did Christ turn the water into wine? How, or by what process does inspiration enter our minds? What happens, at a physical level, when our hearts are changed? And most intriguingly, will we someday be able to replicate these, and like processes?

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  • 7 years later...

Luke 8:10

 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand

1 Nephi 1:1

I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days.

1 Nephi 10:19

 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

 

Alma 26:22

 Yea, he that repenteth and exerciseth faith, and bringeth forth good works, and prayeth continually without ceasing—unto such it is given to know the mysteries of God; yea, unto such it shall be given to reveal things which never have been revealed; yea, and it shall be given unto such to bring thousands of souls to repentance, even as it has been given unto us to bring these our brethren to repentance.

D&C 84:19

And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

 

D&C 10:64

Therefore, I will unfold unto them this great mystery

 

I believe the mysteries are the things that are made mention of but often like Paul says that there were unspeakable things that could not be uttered. I believe the mysteries are the things we week for and dive deeper into asking God for testimony and personal revelation to further understand. I believe our Heavenly Father delights in teaching us more as we are able to bear it.

“God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what he will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 149)

The Gospel isn't an exclusive club privileged for a few, but anyone who will be obedient can obtain all the promises in the scriptures.

For deeper dives on this topic here's a great article 

 

https://scripturenotes.com/are-we-seeking-the-mysteries-of-god

 

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On 3/2/2020 at 8:42 AM, aspen said:

Luke 8:10

 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand

1 Nephi 1:1

I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days.

1 Nephi 10:19

 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

 

Alma 26:22

 Yea, he that repenteth and exerciseth faith, and bringeth forth good works, and prayeth continually without ceasing—unto such it is given to know the mysteries of God; yea, unto such it shall be given to reveal things which never have been revealed; yea, and it shall be given unto such to bring thousands of souls to repentance, even as it has been given unto us to bring these our brethren to repentance.

D&C 84:19

And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

 

D&C 10:64

Therefore, I will unfold unto them this great mystery

 

I believe the mysteries are the things that are made mention of but often like Paul says that there were unspeakable things that could not be uttered. I believe the mysteries are the things we week for and dive deeper into asking God for testimony and personal revelation to further understand. I believe our Heavenly Father delights in teaching us more as we are able to bear it.

“God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what he will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 149)

The Gospel isn't an exclusive club privileged for a few, but anyone who will be obedient can obtain all the promises in the scriptures.

For deeper dives on this topic here's a great article 

 

https://scripturenotes.com/are-we-seeking-the-mysteries-of-god

 

I think one of the greatest mysteries of G-d is that the mysteries of G-d are not so much doctrines.

 

The Traveler

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Deep doctrine is stuff like understanding why emigrants to Utah during the reformation period were required to be rebaptized in order to Maintain standing in the Church. Or blood atonement. Or the meaning of Adam God theory and why BY kept pushing it. 
Or why certain groups were not able to hold the Priesthood before 1978. No reasons have been mentioned, although many have been posited by Church higher ups over the years. 

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Usually when I hear people talk about deep doctrines they either refer to:

1: Mormon folklore and conspiracy theories (Cain is Big Foot, Hillary Clinton is the beast from The Book of Revelation)

2: Doctrines or anything religiously related that a person think is too complicated and is put off by it (Jesus is also our father (by covenant), a steel sword was discovered in Jericho)

 

To me, deep doctrine should indicate the richness, the wisdom of the doctrines that has been revealed (don't only forgive seven times but seventy times seven... that one has so many sweet layers)

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The deep doctrine of the restoration is the Plan of Salvation.  Nothing else is as wide, long or deep - or for that matter - matters.  Some often ask if certain knowledge (mysteries) is necessary for salvation - but it would seem that if it was not in any way related - why else does is it part of our mortal trial.

I have my own thoughts - but does anyone have answer to why in the "beginning" of our learning of G-d and his purpose - that it is begun with an explanation of "creation"?  And yet our Milky-way galaxy is farther across by more than a factor of 10 for us to be able to see (speed of light) the far side of our galaxy than the young earth religionists believe has been since creation began.  This so interests me because our galaxy is larger than we understood the universe to be when Joseph Smith was born and now our science has discovered that our galaxy is part of a super cluster of galaxies bigger than we thought of the universe just 100 years ago - and there are hundreds of thousands of known super clusters of galaxies that have only been discovered since the launch of the Hubble telescope. 

We know more about our universe, it vastness its beginnings than ever before - and yet we do not know any more of how the creation plays into the plan of salvation today than when Joseph restored the basics of the plan of salvation.  More than a temporal dimensional spectrum of the plan of salvation it would seem we have perhaps a four dimensional space time universe to explore as we learn of the plan of salvation.  And yet many are more worried with how many angles can dance on the head of a pin?????  

And then there is me - still struggling after 70+ years - with how to forgive my enemies and why G-d wants someone like me (and some of you) in his neighborhood.

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Guest Scott

I remember reading about "Deep Doctrine" a few years ago when someone asked a question and searched for the information on the Church website:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2017/06/to-the-point/where-should-i-go-to-learn-the-really-deep-doctrine-of-the-church?lang=eng

Where should I go to learn the really “deep” doctrine of the Church?

When you hear the word deep in connection with gospel doctrine, it’s sometimes meant to suggest something mysterious, obscure, or difficult to understand. But perhaps a better way of thinking about it is to consider which teachings affect us most deeply. Our relationship with Heavenly Father, His plan, Jesus Christ’s Resurrection and Atonement, His teachings—these and many others are the “deep” doctrine. God has revealed them to prophets. They’re easy to find. They’re in the scriptures. They’re taught by modern prophets and apostles. The Holy Ghost carries them unto our hearts (see 2 Nephi 33:1). They enlarge our souls, enlighten our understandings, and are delicious to us (see Alma 32:28). They help us build “faith unto repentance” (see Alma 34:15–17). They cause a deep change in us. That’s why they’re deep, not because they’re “out there” or hidden.

This doesn’t mean our study should be superficial. There’s plenty to learn through more study. But as Nephi said, “My soul delighteth in plainness; for after this manner doth the Lord God work among the children of men. For the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding” (2 Nephi 31:3).


 

 

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14 hours ago, Traveler said:

The deep doctrine of the restoration is the Plan of Salvation.  Nothing else is as wide, long or deep - or for that matter - matters.  Some often ask if certain knowledge (mysteries) is necessary for salvation - but it would seem that if it was not in any way related - why else does is it part of our mortal trial.

I have my own thoughts - but does anyone have answer to why in the "beginning" of our learning of G-d and his purpose - that it is begun with an explanation of "creation"?  And yet our Milky-way galaxy is farther across by more than a factor of 10 for us to be able to see (speed of light) the far side of our galaxy than the young earth religionists believe has been since creation began.  This so interests me because our galaxy is larger than we understood the universe to be when Joseph Smith was born and now our science has discovered that our galaxy is part of a super cluster of galaxies bigger than we thought of the universe just 100 years ago - and there are hundreds of thousands of known super clusters of galaxies that have only been discovered since the launch of the Hubble telescope. 

We know more about our universe, it vastness its beginnings than ever before - and yet we do not know any more of how the creation plays into the plan of salvation today than when Joseph restored the basics of the plan of salvation.  More than a temporal dimensional spectrum of the plan of salvation it would seem we have perhaps a four dimensional space time universe to explore as we learn of the plan of salvation.  And yet many are more worried with how many angles can dance on the head of a pin?????  

And then there is me - still struggling after 70+ years - with how to forgive my enemies and why G-d wants someone like me (and some of you) in his neighborhood.

I have a thought in regards to our universe.  We currently think in science that it is around 13 Billion years (13.77) old...but what if they are just as wrong with that as they say Darwin was with his original assumptions (a thousandth too short of a time in regards to evolution).

Perhaps instead of Billions, it is Trillions or Quadrillions of years old.  They have some estimate the size of the universe (93 Billion Light years), but that could also be flawed.  It could turn out that this is just a mere fraction of what the actual universe is in size.

Our knowledge is always expanding with science, and perhaps in regards to the size, age, and mysteries of the universe we have yet to even start to tap the beginning of it.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I have a thought in regards to our universe.  We currently think in science that it is around 13 Billion years (13.77) old...but what if they are just as wrong with that as they say Darwin was with his original assumptions (a thousandth too short of a time in regards to evolution).

Perhaps instead of Billions, it is Trillions or Quadrillions of years old.  They have some estimate the size of the universe (93 Billion Light years), but that could also be flawed.  It could turn out that this is just a mere fraction of what the actual universe is in size.

Our knowledge is always expanding with science, and perhaps in regards to the size, age, and mysteries of the universe we have yet to even start to tap the beginning of it.

We do not have to even guess - we have know for a while that the universe is expanding but we only learned recently that the expansion is accelerating.  I am not aware of any calculation changes for the size of our universe that include this now know observation.  Which BTW; would make the universe older than what is being calculated.  But there are other problems with the inflation theory of the Big Bang that make the accelerating expansion much more problematic.

There is one aspect of this that kind of sits on a back shelf and no one talks about.  If we theorize that evolution is random - we must deal with infinite parameters or at least permutations far outside the wildest estimates.  Especially concerning the evolution of life here on earth.  Regardless of what explanations we have for evolution we have evolutionary examples in sharks and bats that defy all explanations - both scientific and religious.

I believe the point here is that we, as the human species, ought to be more open to considering things to be possible beyond what is allowed within the parameters currently being considered.  Now I will make a very general and bold statement.  That is - that it has been my experience the science is much more willing to consider this thinking outside the box with the exception that something intelligent is playing a major role.  But even worse is the religious community rejection of anything that seems to alter in any way their thinking of such thing based in what was understood generally nearly 2,000 years ago.  This despite the prophesies that in the last days (of restoration) that the knowledge of the heavens would be opened like the rolling out of a scroll. 

 

The Traveler

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