Acceptable violence?


echegollen
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In the STRENGTH FOR YOUTH PAMPHLET, it is written:

''Do not attend, view, or participate in anything that is vulgar, immoral, violent, or pornographic in any way. Do not participate in anything that presents immorality or violence as acceptable. Have the courage to walk out of a movie, change your music, or turn off a computer, television, or mobile device if what you see or hear drives away the Spirit.''

According to the pamphlet, violence is clearly something we should avoid. However, when you read the Book of Mormon, you soon realize that the book is filled with stories of wars and extreme violence. This brings me to the following question: Is there a type of violence that is ''acceptable''?

For example, I love watching mixed martial arts events such as the UFC. It could be considered ''controlled violence'' since both fighters are consenting to fight and they have to obey a set of rules. Also, they almost never fight out of anger since a true fighter knows it might impede his judgement.

Do you think this would be an example of an ''acceptable violence''?

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The pamplet is pretty clear "...presents immorality or violence as acceptable"

If the violence is presented as an acceptable act, then stay clear. The BOM shows us a history of violence, but doesnt portray it as "acceptable" but rather shows it as necessary at times and does not glory in it.

I see it as night and day, what I should watch and what I shouldnt. However, that doesnt mean that I will change my habbits at this time. We all justify to one extent or another. But the message doestn leave much room for debate.

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I don't think the Savior would enjoy watching the UFC. I sure see allot of the participants who give him credit and thanks. I mean Tebow is a Johnny come lately when compared to the UFC.

I watch iMMA and don't feel bad about it.

When I think of voilence I think of Slasher flicks .

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Properly practiced, martial arts is NOT violent. It is a study in self-control and both mental and physical preparation in the event that sef-defense becomes necessary.

The situations you are referring to concerning wars and the Book of Mormon are those where individuals must rely on such preparation in order to defend their liberties, families, and religion. Defense of such things is acceptable.

The things we are to avoid are those things which depict violence as a normal and encouraged. Anyone focused on defense will not encourage violence and will seek to exhaust all other means of conflict resolution, hoping to never be forced to take up arms in order to protect that which is holy and dear.

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In the STRENGTH FOR YOUTH PAMPHLET, it is written:

It's important to know the context. It's written there in the chapter entitled "Entertainment and the Media". The counsel there is specifically given to folks trying to figure out what sort of entertainment to seek. If you find it entertaining to watch your fellow humans beat each other up, you may want to rethink some things about what you find entertaining and why.

That said, the earth is a violent place and humans are violent people. Preparing to live in a violent world and identify and deal with violence should it come your way is, at least in my opinion, part of reasonable preparation for our mortal journey. From that standpoint, participating or watching stuff like MMA and whatnot is not about entertainment to me.

In other words, I take my kids to krav maga classes and they learn how to kick bad guy groins. This is not for anyone's entertainment, and we're not (in my opinion) going against any counsel in the Strength for the Youth Pamphlet.

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Outsider view: Professional sports can include physical clashes. However, ideally, they glorify practice, talent, performance, and the quest for victory. When football becomes a ratings magnet that prefers broken collar bones and concussions to well executed plays, it becomes problematic. When boxing glorifies the killer punch that leads to broken nose and blood flow, rather than the skillful win, it becomes a gore spectacle. When movies install violence as something humorous or cheap-thrillish, yeah it's something to be avoided.

The ultimate discussion on violence in media might be the Passion of the Christ. Many of us saw the violence as necessary to understanding what really happened to Jesus. The Pope is said to have remarked that Gibson portrayed the Passion as it likely happened. Others, even some non-Christians, accused viewers of engaging with violence-porn. I believe one even called it a religious snuff film.

I probably err on the side of liberality. However most professional sports, and most films that aim to present a realistic story, should fall under the label of ungodly violence.

Edited by prisonchaplain
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Outsider view: Professional sports can include physical clashes. However, ideally, they glorify practice, talent, performance, and the quest for victory. When football becomes a ratings magnet that prefers broken collar bones and concussions to well executed plays, it becomes problematic. When boxing glorifies the killer punch that leads to broken nose and blood flow, rather than the skillful win, it becomes a gore spectacle. When movies install violence as something humorous or cheap-thrillish, yeah it's something to be avoided.

The ultimate discussion on violence in media might be the Passion of the Christ. Many of us saw the violence as necessary to understanding what really happened to Jesus. The Pope is said to have remarked that Gibson portrayed the Passion as it likely happened. Others, even some non-Christians, accused viewers of engaging with violence-porn. I believe one even called it a religious snuff film.

I probably err on the side of liberality. However most professional sports, and most films that aim to present a realistic story, should fall under the label of ungodly violence.

Because of your background in the prison system I had hoped for some incites into the impact violence has to an individual's character.

Having served in the military and having been trained in violence I have seen first hand the impact that had on me and others. Even for a good cause (military, police and various security professions including weapon manufacturing) it appears to me that associations with violence can have a more detrimental effect than sexual temptations?

Maybe we should understand such things related to violence in the same manner as wealth or money - if it is a matter of joy and entertainment - maybe we are abusing it.

The Traveler

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Also exMilitary...

I've always taught my son:

When is it okay to hit/kick/bite/etc., aka attack someone, aka when is violence okay?

- When you're defending yourself

- Defending someone else

- Learning how to fight

((Also... That rudeness is attacking someone without touching them, and the same rules apply.))

______

I find there to be a ginormous difference, as well... Between cruelty / pleasure in hurting others/ exerting power or subjugating the weak, and mutually agreed upon contact.

Like sex vs rape.

A punch in the shoulder can be 'Love you, man!' Or 'Fear me.' A martial arts match can be two athletes striving for excellence, while showing each other respect, etc. or it can be about hatred and disrespect. Words, as well, can be violent. The exact same phrase, with 2 entirely different meanings.

Levels. Intent. Application.

KWIM?

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Because of your background in the prison system I had hoped for some incites into the impact violence has to an individual's character.

Having served in the military and having been trained in violence I have seen first hand the impact that had on me and others. Even for a good cause (military, police and various security professions including weapon manufacturing) it appears to me that associations with violence can have a more detrimental effect than sexual temptations?

Maybe we should understand such things related to violence in the same manner as wealth or money - if it is a matter of joy and entertainment - maybe we are abusing it.

The Traveler

My prison experience is somewhat unique, in that I serve in a federal jail. Our inmates tend to be in for cerebral crimes, and are usually on their best behavior, since they want the judges to see what calm, compliant, misunderstood people they are.

Properly regulated sports would be a good way for directing violence towards useful, goal-oriented performance. Again, if the real aim is blood and pummeling, your suggestions would be spot on. Further, I'll be the first to say that gratuitiously violent video games, slasher movies, and even violent programs that celebrate the violence more than the victory of good over evil, are all unworthy of God's children. Most sports do not fall into those errors, that I can see.

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My prison experience is somewhat unique, in that I serve in a federal jail. Our inmates tend to be in for cerebral crimes, and are usually on their best behavior, since they want the judges to see what calm, compliant, misunderstood people they are.

Properly regulated sports would be a good way for directing violence towards useful, goal-oriented performance. Again, if the real aim is blood and pummeling, your suggestions would be spot on. Further, I'll be the first to say that gratuitiously violent video games, slasher movies, and even violent programs that celebrate the violence more than the victory of good over evil, are all unworthy of God's children. Most sports do not fall into those errors, that I can see.

One of my concerns with violence is there seems to be an attitude that it is okay to be violent with people the deserve it. The problem is deciding who deserves it. I have yet to meet anyone that thinks their violence was not justified. I was also interested to read that "Baby Face Nelson" a very violent "cop" killer during his final minutes in a gun battle in which he was killed expressed that he did not understand why so many people were angry with him - that he would never hurt a innocent person for any reason?

I am convinced that leaving individuals to discern what level of violence is acceptable to them is not really a very good idea.

The Traveler

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One of my concerns with violence is there seems to be an attitude that it is okay to be violent with people the deserve it. The problem is deciding who deserves it. I have yet to meet anyone that thinks their violence was not justified. I was also interested to read that "Baby Face Nelson" a very violent "cop" killer during his final minutes in a gun battle in which he was killed expressed that he did not understand why so many people were angry with him - that he would never hurt a innocent person for any reason?

I am convinced that leaving individuals to discern what level of violence is acceptable to them is not really a very good idea.

The Traveler

The bolded is something that always makes my stomach turn. If everyone got what they "deserved", then everyone would receive nothing but eternal suffering. I have a very hard time agreeing with people who say they're dishing out what someone else "deserves". It's not our place to make those kinds of decisions- that's in God's hands. He is the one meant to carry out justice, while we are to be merciful and forgiving of all men. Even the death penalty shouldn't be about giving someone what they deserve. It should be about protecting the safety of others.

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One common refrain in our training as correctional professionals is, "They're here AS punishment, NOT FOR punishment."

These days the goal is to facilitate reentry, and to prevent re-offending. The world is not where churches are...but that does sound some like promoting repentance and forgiveness.

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The bolded is something that always makes my stomach turn. If everyone got what they "deserved", then everyone would receive nothing but eternal suffering. I have a very hard time agreeing with people who say they're dishing out what someone else "deserves". It's not our place to make those kinds of decisions- that's in God's hands. He is the one meant to carry out justice, while we are to be merciful and forgiving of all men. Even the death penalty shouldn't be about giving someone what they deserve. It should be about protecting the safety of others.

What about the Taliban gunmen who stopped the bus and then entered the bus and called out the name of the 14 year old Pakistani girl and then gunned her down, just because she felt that all women should have the chance to better themselves and have an education.

A 14 year old girl who had the courage and hope that she and other women would someday see that come to fruition, and so she spoke out about it.

Would it turn your stomach to have these animals hunted down and taken off of the face of the earth so that innocent 14 year old girls would not have to worry about such brutality in the future? Or should we just let them have a pass and let God deal with them in the future.

Whatever you think the high ground is, it does at least for now seem to be in our hands, after all isn't that what we're over there for? Even though it is in Pakistan, hopefully the Pakistani government would try to hunt these men down, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Let us not forget that these same animals that shot this 14 year old girl also said that they would try to hunt her down again once she heals from her wounds -- if she ever does survive at all.

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One thing else I would like to say and that is in regards to such individuals that choose their occupations in such sports as boxing or football or whatever.......yes it is violent but that is what they chose to do.

Every boxer who steps into the ring is going in with the intention to knock the head off of his opponent not to do a tap dance, but again that is what he chose to do as a proffesion.

So it doesn't really matter what people think is 'acceptable violence' or not -- it's their choice -- and they will reap what repracussions that might follow -- and his opponent realizes the same.

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One thing else I would like to say and that is in regards to such individuals that choose their occupations in such sports as boxing or football or whatever.......yes it is violent but that is what they chose to do.

Every boxer who steps into the ring is going in with the intention to knock the head off of his opponent not to do a tap dance, but again that is what he chose to do as a proffesion.

So it doesn't really matter what people think is 'acceptable violence' or not -- it's their choice -- and they will reap what repracussions that might follow -- and his opponent realizes the same.

What about the Taliban gunmen who stopped the bus and then entered the bus and called out the name of the 14 year old Pakistani girl and then gunned her down, just because she felt that all women should have the chance to better themselves and have an education.

A 14 year old girl who had the courage and hope that she and other women would someday see that come to fruition, and so she spoke out about it.

Would it turn your stomach to have these animals hunted down and taken off of the face of the earth so that innocent 14 year old girls would not have to worry about such brutality in the future? Or should we just let them have a pass and let God deal with them in the future.

Whatever you think the high ground is, it does at least for now seem to be in our hands, after all isn't that what we're over there for? Even though it is in Pakistan, hopefully the Pakistani government would try to hunt these men down, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Let us not forget that these same animals that shot this 14 year old girl also said that they would try to hunt her down again once she heals from her wounds -- if she ever does survive at all.

I am confused from you two posts - What is the difference in the examples you give. Those that are violent for their own glory and those that are violent for the glory of G-d?

Especially applying this comment:

So it doesn't really matter what people think is 'acceptable violence' or not -- it's their choice -- and they will reap what repracussions that might follow

concerning your questions about what should be done about "these same animals that shot this 14 year old girl".

The Traveler

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we are to be merciful and forgiving of all men.

What about the Taliban gunmen
Yes, Flavius, we are to be merciful and forgiving of them too. Do you disagree?

From where I'm standing, mercy and forgiveness does not automatically equal removing consequenses of actions. Sometimes it equals hastening or providing the consequenses.

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What about the Taliban gunmen who stopped the bus and then entered the bus and called out the name of the 14 year old Pakistani girl and then gunned her down, just because she felt that all women should have the chance to better themselves and have an education.

A 14 year old girl who had the courage and hope that she and other women would someday see that come to fruition, and so she spoke out about it.

Would it turn your stomach to have these animals hunted down and taken off of the face of the earth so that innocent 14 year old girls would not have to worry about such brutality in the future? Or should we just let them have a pass and let God deal with them in the future.

Whatever you think the high ground is, it does at least for now seem to be in our hands, after all isn't that what we're over there for? Even though it is in Pakistan, hopefully the Pakistani government would try to hunt these men down, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Let us not forget that these same animals that shot this 14 year old girl also said that they would try to hunt her down again once she heals from her wounds -- if she ever does survive at all.

I believe you misunderstood me. I am not against the death penalty. I am not against violent acts done for the sake of protecting and defending others. There are situations where we must act for the betterment of others, as can be seen in scriptural examples like Nephi being instructed to kill Laban, or in Captain Moroni killing the kingsmen who refused to take up the pledge to protect the liberties of the people.

The part that makes my stomach turn is when people dish out violence because they think someone deserves it. If the people hunting down the Taliban were bloodthirsty and cruel in the execution of their "penalty", while I may agree that it would be better for everyone for that individual to be put to death, it would still make my stomach turn.

It's a matter of the purpose and attitude behind the killing. Is there violence or mercy in your heart as you carry out the act? Are you seeking vengence on someone who you think deserves pain, or grudgingly carrying out an action that is the only feasable solution to prevent more violence?

Do not consider these men animals. They are just as human as you and me, and they are also children of our Heavenly Father. It is not our place to judge them, but it is our place to protect those we can from violence. When the only way to provide that protection is through war and/or a death penalty, so be it. But we should not glory or revel in such decisions.

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Further, I'll be the first to say that gratuitiously violent video games, slasher movies, and even violent programs that celebrate the violence more than the victory of good over evil, are all unworthy of God's children.

I like this interpretation...

When it comes to watching a mixed martial art fight, I guess it is important to understand why I am watching it. Is it to see blood and people getting KO, or to see martial artist displaying their skills...

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I am confused from you two posts - What is the difference in the examples you give. Those that are violent for their own glory and those that are violent for the glory of G-d?

Especially applying this comment:

concerning your questions about what should be done about "these same animals that shot this 14 year old girl".

The Traveler

In response to your confusion -- the only way I can put it to you is that a boxer enters the ring with the knowledge that yes, he is entering an arena that is going to be violent because that is how he makes his living, because he is good enough at it hopefully that he can make a living at it and feed his family -- if he has one.

He and his opponent go in with the idea that it isn't going to be a bed of roses, that quite possibly both could come out battered, cut and bruised and yes some have even died as a result -- but both have entered that ring with the full knowledge that could be a possibility -- but they both have made that personal choice.

So I don't think the boxer is creating violence for 'his own glory' per se, (although I admit many have a huge ego) but out of necessity for his livelihood. He's not going out with the intention of killing his opponent and he's sure not packing an AK-47 to shoot his opponent in the head and not threatening to come back to finish the job in case he didn't succeed the first time.

The Taliban that shot the little girl were tring to kill her because she spoke out about wanting to get an education. The Taliban made they're decision to try to kill her -- she had no say in the matter.

The two boxers made their decisions and accept all that comes with it.

The 14 year old girl made no such decision -- it was forced upon her through the Taliban.

I don't know how even the hardcore of the hardcore of Taliban could call shooting a 14 year old girl as doing it 'for the glory of god'.

You did make a good point, and I probably didn't answer you very well and probably shouldn't have even brought the boxer into the equation.

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Yes, Flavius, we are to be merciful and forgiving of them too. Do you disagree?

From where I'm standing, mercy and forgiveness does not automatically equal removing consequenses of actions. Sometimes it equals hastening or providing the consequenses.

Yes the Saviour said to love your enemies and forgive all that tresspass against you, and I'm glad you can take the highroad LM, because I believe you are a better man than I am.

But I will say if that was my 14 year old daughter, I probably wouldn't take the high road.

So yes I disagree.... and yes perhaps the Lord would not be as merciful and forgiving towards me as a result.

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I believe you misunderstood me. I am not against the death penalty. I am not against violent acts done for the sake of protecting and defending others. There are situations where we must act for the betterment of others, as can be seen in scriptural examples like Nephi being instructed to kill Laban, or in Captain Moroni killing the kingsmen who refused to take up the pledge to protect the liberties of the people.

The part that makes my stomach turn is when people dish out violence because they think someone deserves it. If the people hunting down the Taliban were bloodthirsty and cruel in the execution of their "penalty", while I may agree that it would be better for everyone for that individual to be put to death, it would still make my stomach turn.

It's a matter of the purpose and attitude behind the killing. Is there violence or mercy in your heart as you carry out the act? Are you seeking vengence on someone who you think deserves pain, or grudgingly carrying out an action that is the only feasable solution to prevent more violence?

Do not consider these men animals. They are just as human as you and me, and they are also children of our Heavenly Father. It is not our place to judge them, but it is our place to protect those we can from violence. When the only way to provide that protection is through war and/or a death penalty, so be it. But we should not glory or revel in such decisions.

I don't mean to be offensive to you Judo, but I really do consider these men animals. To me personally there is no other way to say it. To me they are not 'just as human as you and me' biologically yes they're human, but that's about where it ends for me personally.

Anyone that shoots 14 year old girls simply because she is trying to better herself in a god-forsaken wasteland or decapitate someone with a knife while they're sreaming and a host of other atrocities is well....you know the answer.

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No offense taken. That kind of outlook though is exactly the kind I'm speaking of that makes me feel squemish. I consider the actions you describe just as atrocious as you do, and they certainly don't sit right with me either. But looking at others like nothing more than animals, no matter what they've done, is something that bothers me just as much.

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