Polygamy in the afterlife?

[TurboGirl]

6 hours ago, estradling75 said:

 

6 hours ago, estradling75 said:

The Ordinance of Sealing is different in that it involves two people, and both have to make it before they can claim the promise of being together.

This is basic stuff both your mom and dad would know.

Is this idea also clear to you?

Two people yes this I also understand.

[estradling75]

17 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

 

Two people yes this I also understand.

excellent... lets examine snarled mess it can become because of involving two people.

Here is the scriptural basis for what I am going to say next.. D&C 82:10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

That is a pretty straight forward promise.  When I take part in an Ordinance (like baptism) I make certain promises... and the Lord promises me certain blessing.  If I break my baptismal promise (also called covenants) then the Lord has no obligation to bless me with the promised blessings.  But if am successful in keeping mine( through lots of repentance) then the Lord is bound to fulfill his part.

When it is just one person it is really straight forward... If that person screws up they lose for the blessing for themselves, if they don't then they don't.

But when people are Sealed two people covenant individually with the Lord that they are going to work together for some promised blessings.

What do you think happens if one of the individual fails and doesn't not keep their promise?

Lets use your personal example as a case study.  What do you think will happen if your Father does not make it?  What do you think will happen if your Mother does not make it?  What do you think will happen if your Step-Mother does not make it? (Please note this is entirely a theoretical experiment I am not rendering judgement on your family)

 

[Guest]

21 hours ago, TurboGirl said:

Maybe it's because my dad has become a completely different person over the year and half my mom has been gone. He went from being a happy member of the church, to being a person completely obsessed with his faith. He use to enjoy being around his grandkids, and talking to them about their plans about everything from work, school, or friends. Now he only talks to them about how they need to go to church, getting married and keeps asking my 12 yrs old if she wants to talk to the missionaries, to the point that she hides when he comes over. He only talks to me and my husband about how we need get married in the temple, and how we will miss out on our family if we don't. Anytime I am around his wife she brings up the some revelation/dream she has had about my mother.

But you are right, maybe I just need to give it up. There is no changing what has been done, and I'm starting to think I am driving myself crazy trying to understand and relate to them.

Sorry about the "Jim Jones" comment it was said in frustration. Most of you have been helpful, and some of you need to see when someone is asking real question because they don't understand, and they are not trying to be confrontational.

Yeah, I kinda got the "Jim Jones" comment was just a frustrated interjection rather than a sincere accusation.  So, apology accepted.  

To tell the truth, I'm most concerned about the bolded part above.  I'm taking your assessment at face value.  I'm assuming you're not mischaracterizing, or exaggerating, or making things up, or just saying things from an emotional cannon.  If I can take it at face value, in my mind, she has no stewardship over you.  It is inappropriate at best and possibly deranged at worst if she believes she can receive revelation for you and your family.  This is not the LDS way.

As for how your dad is behaving, I'd think that Vort's assessment is pretty close to what is going on in your dad's mind.  He's just trying to make up for lost time.  It is awkward for him.  And he doesn't really know how to go about it.  He's struggling probably as much as you are with this whole thing.  Give the situation time to adjust.

Regarding the doctrinal difficulties you have:

For issues like this it is important to remember that you have to view this issue from an all-or-nothing perspective.  If it is wrong, it's just ink on paper and electrons in a computer.  No harm done.  If it is true, then God is the author of what is happening and we just need to have faith that it will work out.  And as you learn more about the doctrines and beliefs and see how it all fits together, it will become more clear to you.

The problem you seem to be facing is that you're in the "in-between" land.  That is a dangerous place to be.  This creates a tendency to assume all the stuff is real and happening.  But you're looking at it from an outsider's perspective which makes it all seem so wrong.  That's why grasping all this is so difficult for you.

Give it time.

[TurboGirl]

11 hours ago, estradling75 said:

What do you think will happen if your Father does not make it?  What do you think will happen if your Mother does not make it?  What do you think will happen if your Step-Mother does not make it? (Please note this is entirely a theoretical experiment I am not rendering judgement on your family)

 

What do you mean by "make it"? Like if any of them cheated outside their marriage?

[estradling75]

1 hour ago, TurboGirl said:

What do you mean by "make it"? Like if any of them cheated outside their marriage?

Ahhh  excellent... we now see another piece of the puzzle that you are missing... So we need to change topic a bit to cover it.

Most Christians believe in One Heaven and one Hell.  All that go to Heaven share the same blessings and all the at go to Hell share the same punishments.  This idea poses some problems.  Namely what about those that barely qualify for Heaven or barely qualify for Hell.  It seems like they are really close to being similar in worthiness... But one gets the same blessing as the most noble saint and prophet and the other gets the same punishment as the most vile sinner.  This seems unfair.

LDS believe that Heaven has divisions. (You might have heard talk of the Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms those are the divisions)  Each individual will be rewarded according to their diligence and willingness to obey God's commands.  The very highest part of the highest kingdom we call Exaltation.  It requires all the Ordinances and for you to be the best of the best the most faithful of the faithful.  This is the only place where one can and will be still married.  Anything less and you "didn't make it" and you have no promise to be married. Even though you would still be in Heaven it would be at a lesser degree.

I think this is part of why your Dad is acting the way he is... He has reexamined his life and might think he comes up lacking... so he is trying to repent.

So I am not talking about cheating (although that would be a factor if it existed) for "making it" I am asking what if they are not part of the best and most faithful and don't quantify for Exaltation. Even though they are good people and get a Heavenly reward?

 

    

Edited May 12, 2016 by estradling75

[estradling75]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

To tell the truth, I'm most concerned about the bolded part above.  I'm taking your assessment at face value.  I'm assuming you're not mischaracterizing, or exaggerating, or making things up, or just saying things from an emotional cannon.  If I can take it at face value, in my mind, she has no stewardship over you.  It is inappropriate at best and possibly deranged at worst if she believes she can receive revelation for you and your family.  This is not the LDS way.

I agree with the lack stewardship... but I am not as concerned about it.  I see a very likely path for this to happen without being to over the top.

If the Step-Mother (and the Father for that matter) followed church council in the matter.  She would have clearly prayed about and pondered the idea of being married and Sealed to the Father.  As part of this pondering and prayer I can imagine the Step-Mother being concerned about the reaction of the Mother... and if she would approve or accept such an action.  Thus the vision/dream/revelation could very will be the answer to the prayers and the sign of divine approval to go ahead.  Such a vision/dream/revelation would be well with in the bounds of stewardship when given.

Then it is very likely that TurboGirl went off on her Step-Mother and Father about how her Mother would never approve such an action (Much like she did earlier in this thread).  The Step-Mother feeling that she was under attack defended herself... Saying in essence that she was concerned and worried about it so much so that God had to give her a vision/dream/revelation showing that she was really ok with it before moving forward.

Of course the Step-Mother does not have a stewardship over TurboGirl and should be more discrete with sacred things such as vision/dream/revelations.  But I can totally understand wanting to defend your character from an attack.

Edited May 12, 2016 by estradling75

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

...Saying in essence that she was concerned and worried about it so much so that God had to give her a vision/dream/revelation showing that she was really ok with it before moving forward.

Of course the Step-Mother does not have a stewardship over TurboGirl and should be more discrete with sacred things such as vision/dream/revelations.  But I can totally understand wanting to defend your character from an attack.

This much, I can agree with.

[TurboGirl]

6 hours ago, estradling75 said:

LDS believe that Heaven has divisions. (You might have heard talk of the Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms those are the divisions)  Each individual will be rewarded according to their diligence and willingness to obey God's commands.  The very highest part of the highest kingdom we call Exaltation.  It requires all the Ordinances and for you to be the best of the best the most faithful of the faithful.  This is the only place where one can and will be still married.  Anything less and you "didn't make it" and you have no promise to be married. Even though you would still be in Heaven it would be at a lesser degree.

So I am not talking about cheating (although that would be a factor if it existed) for "making it" I am asking what if they are not part of the best and most faithful and don't quantify for Exaltation. Even though they are good people and get a Heavenly reward?

 

    

So after you die, can you move between kingdoms? I don't know anyone that is the best and most faithful....beside Jesus.

Edited May 12, 2016 by TurboGirl

[estradling75]

5 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

So after you die, can you move between kingdoms? I don't know anyone that is the best and most faithful....beside Jesus.

There is a space between death and the judgement of God that assigns a Kingdom...  Any time before God renders judgement... a person can repent and have a change of heart.  This includes both the living and the dead

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

There is a space between death and the judgement of God that assigns a Kingdom...  Any time before God renders judgement... a person can repent and have a change of heart.  This includes both the living and the dead

Not quite.

The person's heart, and obedience at death is what is judged.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Guest

[estradling75]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Not quite.

The person's heart, and obedience at death is what is judged.

Then why does the Church teach that there is a missionary program going on in the spirit world?  Unless the change of heart required for conversion can happen?

 

 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Then why does the Church teach that there is a missionary program going on in the spirit world?  Unless the change of heart required for conversion can happen?

The missionary work beyond the veil is not about creating a "change of heart".  It is to allow those whose hearts were already prepared to receive the gospel (but did not have the opportunity to accept it prior to death) a chance to accept it.  In terms of the gospel, it is a chance for them to accept the ordinances when they would have performed them in this life, had they had the opportunity to do so.

In order to accept the ordinances, they must be educated in what the ordinances are and what covenants are made.  This education is a large part of the missionary efforts beyond the veil.

But what/who/how a person is in his heart at the time of death doesn't really change between death and judgment.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Guest

[estradling75]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

 

The missionary work beyond the veil is not about creating a "change of heart".  It is to allow those whose hearts were already prepared to receive the gospel (but did not have the opportunity to accept it prior to death) a chance to accept it.  In terms of the gospel, it is a chance for them to accept the ordinances when they would have performed them in this life, had they had the opportunity to do so.

In order to accept the ordinances, they must be educated in what the ordinances are and what covenants are made.  This education is a large part of the missionary efforts beyond the veil.

But what/who/how a person is in his heart at the time of death doesn't really change.

Let me quote section 138

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

 31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

 32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

 

So yes those that didn't know any better get the chance to learn... But also those who rejected the prophets while alive.  Now how likely they are to have a change of heart depends on a lot of factors, but the Lord works on hard hearts all the time there is no reason to think it stops just because someone dies

 

[tesuji]

I'm not sure if we know for sure the exact case in the spirit world. The main thing, though, is that people still get the chance to accept the gospel after this life (and before the resurrection, I think).

The Book of Mormon says the time of our probation consists of this life plus also the spirit world (said by Alma, I think?)

I'm thinking the first general judgement comes at the resurrection. The D&C says you will be resurrected with a specific class of body - either Telestial, Terrestrial or Celestial. That would seem like a pretty permanent thing at that point.

I've read that people will be required to grow and repent, or pay for their sins, before they are allowed to be resurrected. And this process takes longer in the spirit world, so we might as well do it here in this life where it's faster and easier. I got this from the book "What's on the other side?" by Brent Top.

Ultimately, it is the state of your heart that matters.

[tesuji]

I'm not sure if we know for sure the exact case in the spirit world. The main thing, though, is that people still get the chance to accept the gospel after this life (and before the resurrection, I think).

The Book of Mormon says the time of our probation consists of this life plus also the spirit world (said by Alma, I think?)

I'm thinking the first general judgement comes at the resurrection. The D&C says you will be resurrected with a specific class of body - either Telestial, Terrestrial or Celestial. That would seem like a pretty permanent thing at that point.

I've read that people will be required to grow and repent, or pay for their sins, before they are allowed to be resurrected. And this process takes longer in the spirit world, so we might as well do it here in this life where it's faster and easier. I got this from the book "What's on the other side?" by Brent Top.

Ultimately, it is the state of your heart that matters.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

31... all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32...Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

31 Look at the footnotes for "Repent".  In this context it is not talking about changing our desires, or motivations, or for lack of a better term "our hearts".  It is about being teachable enough to recognize we've done something wrong that we didn't know was wrong before.  

32 This verse actually reinforces that fact.  When people die in their sins simply because they don't have proper knowledge of the truth, they simply need to be corrected in their thinking and knowledge, not their being.  

We can be corrected in our thinking and knowledge in the next life but not our being.  --at least not in the manner you lay out here.

This is Saul becoming Paul.  He thought he was doing God's will.  He was motivated to do God's will.  All he needed was the proper education.  He himself did not need to change his motivations.  He just needed to be taught what God's will actually was, and he'd do it.

Remember that this life is the time for men to prepare to meed God.

 

 

Edited May 12, 2016 by Guest

[estradling75]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

31 Look at the footnotes for "Repent".  In this context it is not talking about changing our desires, or motivations, or for lack of a better term "our hearts".  It is about being teachable enough to recognize we've done something wrong that we didn't know was wrong before.  

32 This verse actually reinforces that fact.  When people die in their sins simply because they don't have proper knowledge of the truth, they simply need to be corrected.

This is Saul becoming Paul.  He thought he was doing God's will.  He was motivated to do God's will.  All he needed was the proper education.  He himself did not need to change his motivations.  He just needed to be taught what God's will actually was, and he'd do it.

Remember that this life is the time for men to prepare to meed God.

How does gaining knowledge and acting on it not lead to a change of heart? Paul is a perfect example.  Paul thought he was doing God's will... He was wrong... The Lord corrected him and Paul Changed.

 

Now if All you will only accept  as a Change of Heart is someone that has Felt and Knows the Spirit of God and his will while alive and rejected it, and then later accepting it after he died...   then yeah I would agree such a person is unlikely to change...

But I am using the term in a much broader context...

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

But I am using the term in a much broader context...

Fair enough.  I guess it was just another semantic argument.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Guest

[estradling75]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Fair enough.  I guess it was just another semantic argument.

Looks like... such arguments are such a pain, because it really means we agree (mostly) and are talking past each other

[estradling75]

1 hour ago, TurboGirl said:

So after you die, can you move between kingdoms? I don't know anyone that is the best and most faithful....beside Jesus.

So back to the subject... 

You are very right... Christ is the Best and Most Faithful... He set the standard and all the rest of us fall woefully short.   However there is a big difference between one who has accepted Christ but really makes no effort to live the commandments... and one who accepted Christ and daily strives to follow the commandments he gave and truly and sincerely repents when they fall short.  The former will receive a Heavenly reward for accepting Christ, the latter will receive a greater Heavenly reward accepting Christ and striving to obey.

 

 

 

 

[TurboGirl]

Ok I'm a little confused but let me see if I am understanding correctly:

1. Because my mom already made it to the temple she had already "received the gospel"

2. But at the time of her death, she would not have been able to get into the temple, so she wasn't keeping the all the "ordinances" so she wouldn't be eligible for the top tier. And maybe that's why my dad thought needed to marry this other woman for all time and eternity, in case my mom doesn't "make it"?

[LeSellers]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The missionary work beyond the veil is not about creating a "change of heart".

Dunno 'bout that.

Peter said that the missionary work in Spirit prison was so the disobedient could repent.

Lehi

[estradling75]

8 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

Ok I'm a little confused but let me see if I am understanding correctly:

1. Because my mom already made it to the temple she had already "received the gospel"

2. But at the time of her death, she would not have been able to get into the temple, so she wasn't keeping the all the "ordinances" so she wouldn't be eligible for the top tier. And maybe that's why my dad thought needed to marry this other woman for all time and eternity, in case my mom doesn't "make it"?

I can't speak for your Dad... but I kind of doubt it because it is not what we teach.

Ordinances are one and done.  We go back to the temple to perform work for the dead (see the whole Missionary work for the dead tangent) we do ordinances by proxy on behalf of those who no longer have body to do them with.

The goal for is for us to become as much like Christ as we can... With Christ being the judge on how good we did.  If his judgement is that we did good enough then we "made it"  If his judgement is that we did not do good enough then we get something less.

 

The reason your Dad got married and sealed, he already told you. and nothing seems wrong with what you told us he told you.

[TurboGirl]

Amy has talked about the missionary work in Heaven, that her father or grandfather is teaching the Nephites and that my mom is teaching primary. Some of the stuff that weirds me out a little. Because why would there be a primary because the children that die get their prefect body also correct?

[estradling75]

8 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

Amy has talked about the missionary work in Heaven, that her father or grandfather is teaching the Nephites and that my mom is teaching primary. Some of the stuff that weirds me out a little. Because why would there be a primary because the children that die get their prefect body also correct?

Lets clarify a few things...  The dead don't go to Heaven immediately they go to the spirit world were they continue to exist like they did here but without a physical body.

Missionary work in the spirit world is much like missionary work here...  they teach...  people need to be taught with or without a body... The idea that people will get a perfect body has nothing to do with them needing to learn and accept the gospel.

And we really don't know how it is organized in the spirit world... Many assume a lot like here (including things like primary) but that is speculative.  It might make someone feel better to "think" they know what loved ones are doing, but chances are that has not been revealed to them... And if is has then they should not be sharing it.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2016 by estradling75