Symbolism of the veil?

[classylady]

I'm trying to be general here, as I don't want to say anything that is inappropriate. The more I attend the temple, the more understanding I receive. I've learned that there is often "layers" of symbolism within it's teachings, or also layers of teachings within symbolism. What I once thought was a simple explanation (symbol) of a certain teaching, I later come to realize that it is often only a part of that teaching, and layers of different truths come into play as I gain more knowledge and spirituality: line upon line, precept upon precept.

Lately, I've been contemplating the temple veil experience and it's symbolism. There are so many principles that are taught. Some that come to mind are: obedience, exactness, priesthood order, stewardship, just to name a few.

My question is: Is the veil only symbolic of entering the Celestial Kingdom at resurrection? Or does it also symbolize crossing over from this life and into the next, prior to resurrection? Perhaps it symbolizes both? Anyone have some enlightenment they would like to share? Thank you.

Edited October 20, 2012 by classylady

[skippy740]

In a general gospel context, I look at the veil as being what prevents us from making choices based on a perfect knowledge.

To me, the veil will be in place for all of us until the judgment - when all things are brought to our remembrance - pre-mortal training & our earthly experience.

As far as any additional temple significance, you may want to ask a temple patron.

[pam]

I'm going to put my head moderator hat on here. Classylady asks a very good question and it can be a great discussion. But let's please keep in mind that there are some things regarding what happens in the temple that we need to keep sacred and not discuss.

[paulod]

The Endowment ceremony was designed, in part, to teach us how to come into the presence of God while still in mortality. The veil is the last step. When we are worthy, we will receive the promised blessing and then be invited into His presence.

[skippy740]

Well, considering that "The Mountain of the Lord" LDS movie went into further detail, I won't worry about this post now that I'm thinking about it.

[mikbone]

There are a few instances that one can look at within the scriptures that let us understand what happens when one passes thru the veil.

In my opinion the best reference is found within Ether chapter 3, see verses 10-20.

From these verses it suggests that one passes thru the veil only after sufficient testing and faith. And upon passage thru the veil one then receives his pre-mortal memories.

Everyone will become resurrected. It is obvious that most of those that are resurrected will never pass thru the veil.

I'm not even sure if one must pass thru the veil to enter into the celestial kingdom.

Do some research on the ordinance of receiving one's calling and election.

I would suggest that passage thru the veil is an ordinance that all must partake of who wish to follow the plan of exaltation. It may be a long time after we are resurrected before we are ready to pass through the veil. Although some men have done so during mortality...

3 Nephi 11: 14-15 also gives some insight to the temple ceremony.

[Vort]

I'm trying to be general here, as I don't want to say anything that is inappropriate. The more I attend the temple, the more understanding I receive. I've learned that there is often "layers" of symbolism within it's teachings, or also layers of teachings within symbolism. What I once thought was a simple explanation (symbol) of a certain teaching, I later come to realize that it is often only a part of that teaching, and layers of different truths come into play as I gain more knowledge and spirituality: line upon line, precept upon precept.

Lately, I've been contemplating the temple veil experience and it's symbolism. There are so many principles that are taught. Some that come to mind are: obedience, exactness, priesthood order, stewardship, just to name a few.

My question is: Is the veil only symbolic of entering the Celestial Kingdom at resurrection? Or does it also symbolize crossing over from this life and into the next, prior to resurrection? Perhaps it symbolizes both? Anyone have some enlightenment they would like to share? Thank you.

It is instructive to consider how the word "veil" (or "vail") is used in scripture and other sacred settings:

• When we are born on earth, our minds are covered with a veil.
• We speak of death as "passing through the veil".
• When Moses returned to Israel after speaking with the Lord, he wore a vail which he took off in the Lord's presence.
• In ancient times, the temple of the Jews had a veil, though we are not told exactly how it was ceremonially used or exactly what purpose it served, other than to divide space and keep parts of the temple from the direct view of people in other parts of the temple.
• Paul speaks of the "vail" put on the minds of the people, comparing with the vail over Moses' face (is this even mentioned in our Old Testament? I don't recall Moses, and saying it was done away in Christ. Perhaps this is related to the vail mentioned by Isaiah.
• Women in the temple cover their face with the veil at appropriate times.
• As the culmination of the temple endowment, we pass through the veil, representing entering the presence of God.
• The scriptures teach that Satan veils the earth with his chain.

All of these use the veil as a symbol of separation, usually from God. For the most part, it is a necessary separation. It is also used as a symbol of ignorance or inappropriate separation.

It seems clear to me that "the veil" is a much-used symbol in the restored gospel. To narrow its meaning or interpretation to one specific thing would be to lose the depth, richness, and nuanced meanings of the veil. The temple veil in particular probably represents one primary idea, but also suggests many others. I think that rather than look for "the meaning" of the veil, it might be more profitable to see the many possible meanings and contemplate what they might suggest and how appropriate (or inappropriate) they might be for that purpose.

[Traveler]

I'm trying to be general here, as I don't want to say anything that is inappropriate. The more I attend the temple, the more understanding I receive. I've learned that there is often "layers" of symbolism within it's teachings, or also layers of teachings within symbolism. What I once thought was a simple explanation (symbol) of a certain teaching, I later come to realize that it is often only a part of that teaching, and layers of different truths come into play as I gain more knowledge and spirituality: line upon line, precept upon precept.

Lately, I've been contemplating the temple veil experience and it's symbolism. There are so many principles that are taught. Some that come to mind are: obedience, exactness, priesthood order, stewardship, just to name a few.

My question is: Is the veil only symbolic of entering the Celestial Kingdom at resurrection? Or does it also symbolize crossing over from this life and into the next, prior to resurrection? Perhaps it symbolizes both? Anyone have some enlightenment they would like to share? Thank you.

I believe the veil of the temple is symbolic of a great many things. Unlike much of the discussion in this thread - I am not sure the "answers" can be found in scripture as some have suggested. Please do not misunderstand what I am conveying here. I am not saying that scripture study will not help someone - I am saying the answer will not be found there.

I would suggest two things:

#1. Spend a lot of time attending the temple and paying very close attention to how one is prepared in the temple to spend some time at the veil and even closer attention to what is taught specifically at the veil.

#2. Pay particular attention from the stand point of covenant. This correlates with #1 but covenant is so much more than information. However, I would draw one parallel to something called the final judgement.

One last point. At the conclusion of your temple experience - I suggest that some time be spent in the Celestial room both meditating on the questions posed in this thread and in very subdued and reverent tones converse with your spouse and others concerning your temple experiences - this is the only place on earth where such things can be discussed - and keep in mind that even with that understanding certain things should not be discussed even there.

The Traveler

[mikbone]

The Holy Temple:Amazon:Books

LDS.org - Support Materials Chapter - Preparing to Enter the Holy Temple

The first link is to my favorite book about temple symbolism (Boyd K Packer). The second is the text of a pamphlet based on the first book.

Edited October 21, 2012 by mikbone

[MarginOfError]

I'm trying to be general here, as I don't want to say anything that is inappropriate. The more I attend the temple, the more understanding I receive. I've learned that there is often "layers" of symbolism within it's teachings, or also layers of teachings within symbolism. What I once thought was a simple explanation (symbol) of a certain teaching, I later come to realize that it is often only a part of that teaching, and layers of different truths come into play as I gain more knowledge and spirituality: line upon line, precept upon precept.

Lately, I've been contemplating the temple veil experience and it's symbolism. There are so many principles that are taught. Some that come to mind are: obedience, exactness, priesthood order, stewardship, just to name a few.

My question is: Is the veil only symbolic of entering the Celestial Kingdom at resurrection? Or does it also symbolize crossing over from this life and into the next, prior to resurrection? Perhaps it symbolizes both? Anyone have some enlightenment they would like to share? Thank you.

Some insight on finding symbolism in the temple:

What Quentin Tarantino Taught Me About the Temple By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog

I try not to assign to much literal meaning to anything in the temple. The moment at the veil is one which, I think, is indicative of the kind of conversation we will have before entering God's presence. In that conversation, I expect to be asked about the things I have learned in my life and then how I applied those lessons into making my decisions. If the Savior judges my answers and introspection to be adequate, I will be permitted into his presence.

I also feel that applies in a figurative sense. If I am prayerful, thoughtful, and open with the Lord in how I make decisions, He will lift the veil of ignorance from my mind as allow me extra insight on His will and purpose to further enhance my decisions.

There are many many other layers and lessons that could be learned. But as it says in the blog post above, I think those lessons come when we need them, and may only be relevant to us at the time we need them.

[Seminarysnoozer]

It is instructive to consider how the word "veil" (or "vail") is used in scripture and other sacred settings:

• When we are born on earth, our minds are covered with a veil.
• We speak of death as "passing through the veil".
• When Moses returned to Israel after speaking with the Lord, he wore a vail which he took off in the Lord's presence.
• In ancient times, the temple of the Jews had a veil, though we are not told exactly how it was ceremonially used or exactly what purpose it served, other than to divide space and keep parts of the temple from the direct view of people in other parts of the temple.
• Paul speaks of the "vail" put on the minds of the people, comparing with the vail over Moses' face (is this even mentioned in our Old Testament? I don't recall Moses, and saying it was done away in Christ. Perhaps this is related to the vail mentioned by Isaiah.
• Women in the temple cover their face with the veil at appropriate times.
• As the culmination of the temple endowment, we pass through the veil, representing entering the presence of God.
• The scriptures teach that Satan veils the earth with his chain.

All of these use the veil as a symbol of separation, usually from God. For the most part, it is a necessary separation. It is also used as a symbol of ignorance or inappropriate separation.

It seems clear to me that "the veil" is a much-used symbol in the restored gospel. To narrow its meaning or interpretation to one specific thing would be to lose the depth, richness, and nuanced meanings of the veil. The temple veil in particular probably represents one primary idea, but also suggests many others. I think that rather than look for "the meaning" of the veil, it might be more profitable to see the many possible meanings and contemplate what they might suggest and how appropriate (or inappropriate) they might be for that purpose.

The thing that is most changed, even when you go through that list you provided, is the spirit's association with the mortal body. The mortal body is most often associated with the "veil". Even the first vision implies such a thing such as not knowing if he was in the body or out. When we don't let the influences of the body take over while living a mortal life, the veil becomes thinner. When we start to listen to the influences of the body the veil gets thicker.

When I have read through the teachings regarding the veil and simply plug in the words "mortal body" it, to me, still has the same meaning for the most part. Of course, there are always exceptions to that and like you suggest at any given use of the word it might be focusing on a finite part of the "veil" and carry a different connotation. In particular the reference you give to Paul, as I think Paul describes the veil being related to the body "mind" more than anyone. If one looks at the "mind" as the body's influence and the "heart" as the spirit's, one can see the relative focus between the law of Moses, on the physical aspects of this life, the mind versus what Jesus brought which is the focus on the heart, the spirit. When we focus on the heart (influences of our spirit self), the body (sometimes referred to as the "mind") is less influential and therefore the veil is also not so thick.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Seminarysnoozer

[Blackmarch]

I'm trying to be general here, as I don't want to say anything that is inappropriate. The more I attend the temple, the more understanding I receive. I've learned that there is often "layers" of symbolism within it's teachings, or also layers of teachings within symbolism. What I once thought was a simple explanation (symbol) of a certain teaching, I later come to realize that it is often only a part of that teaching, and layers of different truths come into play as I gain more knowledge and spirituality: line upon line, precept upon precept.

Lately, I've been contemplating the temple veil experience and it's symbolism. There are so many principles that are taught. Some that come to mind are: obedience, exactness, priesthood order, stewardship, just to name a few.

My question is: Is the veil only symbolic of entering the Celestial Kingdom at resurrection? Or does it also symbolize crossing over from this life and into the next, prior to resurrection? Perhaps it symbolizes both? Anyone have some enlightenment they would like to share? Thank you.

A veil is something that prevents us from seeing or going to what is on the other side. There are multiple veils that we have- one that seprates us from heaven, and being able to percieve it. the veil that we passed thru when we were born which prevents us from recalling our spirit life. The veil of death which would prevent us from returning to God which was/is sundered by Christ, the veil of our imperfection and sin which we cannot overcome by ourselves. to name a couple.

[mikbone]

What Quentin Tarantino Taught Me About the Temple By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog

This is a recent blog post from the BCC site.

I found it insightful. Also interesting because the R rated film Pulp Fiction plays an important part in the post. Must admit that I did watch the movie Pulp Fiction, and at the time did not see the symbolism. But there it is.

[Vort]

What Quentin Tarantino Taught Me About the Temple By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog

This is a recent blog post from the BCC site.

I found it insightful. Also interesting because the R rated film Pulp Fiction plays an important part in the post. Must admit that I did watch the movie Pulp Fiction, and at the time did not see the symbolism. But there it is.

No offense, mikbone, but I thought the article was typical of the crap that site freely provides. "Oh, I hated church, it was so boring, I was counting the minutes, and THEN I went to the temple and Took Out My Endowments and the mythology was just SOOOOOOO wonderful! And THEN I saw an R-rated movie and Tarentino was talking about the cool symbolism, and it was just so, like, YES! That's just EXACTLY like in the temple!" Barf.

[mikbone]

No offense, mikbone, but I thought the article was typical of the crap that site freely provides. "Oh, I hated church, it was so boring, I was counting the minutes, and THEN I went to the temple and Took Out My Endowments and the mythology was just SOOOOOOO wonderful! And THEN I saw an R-rated movie and Tarentino was talking about the cool symbolism, and it was just so, like, YES! That's just EXACTLY like in the temple!" Barf.

lol, yeah I agree. There is alot of Proverbs 26:11 going on over there. But every once in a while there is an uplifting post. It's like watching the CBS, NBC, or ABC.

[Seminarysnoozer]

A veil is something that prevents us from seeing or going to what is on the other side. There are multiple veils that we have- one that seprates us from heaven, and being able to percieve it. the veil that we passed thru when we were born which prevents us from recalling our spirit life. The veil of death which would prevent us from returning to God which was/is sundered by Christ, the veil of our imperfection and sin which we cannot overcome by ourselves. to name a couple.

Every example you gave relates to the body; birth, death and when we listen to the influences of the imperfect, corrupted and carnal body more than the spirit (veil of imperfection).

[volgadon]

No offense, mikbone, but I thought the article was typical of the crap that site freely provides. "Oh, I hated church, it was so boring, I was counting the minutes, and THEN I went to the temple and Took Out My Endowments and the mythology was just SOOOOOOO wonderful! And THEN I saw an R-rated movie and Tarentino was talking about the cool symbolism, and it was just so, like, YES! That's just EXACTLY like in the temple!" Barf.

Somehow, I doubt that the interview with Tarantino was rated R.

[jb789]

My question is: Is the veil only symbolic of entering the Celestial Kingdom at resurrection? Or does it also symbolize crossing over from this life and into the next, prior to resurrection? Perhaps it symbolizes both? Anyone have some enlightenment they would like to share? Thank you.

I would say all things in the temple (and spiritually in general) must be learned personally or they will not be meaningful for us - yet I'll share my thoughts on this.

We are taught that Adam, having been faithful in all things, desired further light and knowledge through interaction with the Lord. We are taught to consider ourselves as Adam and Eve. Thus, it is a message about us. When and if we prove ourselves faithful in all we have been given (commandments, covenants, etc), we indeed will receive further instruction, but it will not be through the medium of prophet/apostles/commandments/instructions - it will be through the veil, via the Lord Himself (pure revelation). This is a promise unto all - D & C 93:1 indicates that all who are faithful and forsakth his sins and seeks the Lord will see the Lord's face and know that He is.

Joseph Smith was very frank when he said that if a person were to whole-heartedly follow God and come unto Christ, after being proven in all things, they indeed would have the privilege of knowing firsthand Jesus is the Christ. Here's Joseph's words on the subject:

"After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted.

"When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter, which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as is recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the 14th chapter, from the 12th to the 27th verses.

"Note the 16, 17, 18, 21, 23 verses:

"Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God; and this is the state and place the ancient Saints arrived at when they had such glorious visions--Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, St. Paul in the three heavens, and all the Saints who held communion with the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn."

Thus, I believe, the symbolism of the veil is the barrier which can be pierced only by faith. And when our faith is sufficient, it indeed will be pierced - we will see and know the things of eternity. These are not promises reserved only for prophets/etc - they are literally points along our spiritual journey that we may come to and know for ourselves.

A pattern I have found to be true is that as we spiritually progress, our communication with God becomes more pure and direct. In the beginning, we must rely upon the testimony of others (be they prophets, apostles, etc) to point the way. We need commandments to guide us (the further we are from Christ, the more strict the commandments must be). As we spiritually mature, we have a greater portion of the Holy Ghost in our lives (living the commandments leads to a greater companionship of the Holy Ghost). As we exercise our faith to live by the promptings of the Holy Ghost (3rd member of the Godhead), the Holy Ghost leads us unto Christ. This is the point Joseph Smith spoke of - eventually we will receive the Second Comforter, which is communion with Christ Himself, personally (2nd member of the Godhead). And Joseph said that when this happens, Christ will present us unto the Father (1st member of the Godhead).

This is a wonderful promise, the magnitude of which we have little idea of. Such marvelous things can literally happen in this life - they are not just reserved for the eternities! It is our duty to purify ourselves and seek God, truly great are His blessings for those who humbly seek Him.

So, in my understanding, the veil is the barrier of faith that prevents us from communing directly with Christ - a barrier that through sufficient testing and faith may be rent.

[Vort]

Somehow, I doubt that the interview with Tarantino was rated R.

Having seen neither, I suspect the interview was indeed R-rated, in content if not in actuality.

[paulod]

jb789, beautifully put!

[volgadon]

My question is: Is the veil only symbolic of entering the Celestial Kingdom at resurrection? Or does it also symbolize crossing over from this life and into the next, prior to resurrection? Perhaps it symbolizes both? Anyone have some enlightenment they would like to share? Thank you.

It also symbolises crossing over into a higher level of holiness or sacredness.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Reading everything through, possibly, one way to summarize what the veil does is in what it does for the purposes of the second estate test. It makes possible the second estate test. Once the test is over, it is not needed any longer. I suppose for some that is when they reach paradise, before resurrection. The veil is thin when a person is worthy enough to be pulled out of the second estate test for a while, such as in visions etc. or before the age of accountability. The symbolism of passing through the veil is like turning in the final exam and getting the results. Receiving the veil is the beginning of the test, passing through it is the end of the test and with it goes the time to repent and purify. Crossing the veil for us symbolizes coming out of a fallen state, and therefore is a process of coming back into a higher level of holiness like we were before becoming fallen.

[Guest Thinker]

In a general gospel context, I look at the veil as being what prevents us from making choices based on a perfect knowledge.

Well put!

I agree.

I've been blessed to have some very strong spiritual experiences.

Yet, they tend to be few and in between.

I do feel the spirit often - but not with such intensity & clarity.

It's good to remember that we don't see the entire picture.

It's humbling - but also motivating to learn more.

[Guest Thinker]

It also symbolises crossing over into a higher level of holiness or sacredness.

Thank you for this comment.

I hadn't before considered it in relation to every-day life symbolism.

[bytebear]

I would say it also symbolizes faith. We have faith but not a sure knowledge that our actions and beliefs are leading us toward God. The veil represent the step between faithful actions, and sure knowledge.